The Player and the meaning behind it.

The Player and the meaning behind it. (Full Version)

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allthatjaz -> The Player and the meaning behind it. (10/1/2009 7:00:49 AM)
Every so often the words 'Only Players' comes rolling off someones tongue. It is usually said in a condescending manner and seems to interpret (at least to me) that its of lesser importance, not the real McCoy. It reminds me of the sailing clubs where some people only pootle around on there boats at the weekend and others who cross big oceans and fight blustering storms. There is a real snobbery between who is a real sailor and who is a player. In this lifestyle I think there are certainly people that only play the game and its usually with an agenda, it has to be or why on earth would they do it? A man with no Dominant inclination could set himself up as a Dominant to gain (he hopes) sexual favors especially from someone half his age or a pro sub or pro Mistress with no dominant or submissive inclination could set themselves up to earn good money. but what about the Sadist that doesn't have a dominant side... is he more of a player than the Dominant that doesn't have a sadistic side or one that has both Dominant and sadistic tendencies? or the masochist that loves pain but can't submit. Is he/she a player when you compare them to someone who is submissive? If your answer is yes then why do you feel that way? Switch is a classic player in many peoples minds and yet they just desire to taste both sides of the kneel. There desire is no less than a submissive who wishes to call her husband her Master and walk 3 steps behind him when out in public and she is no more a player than the submissive man that secretly pays a pro Mistress once a month but spends the rest of the month with his unsuspecting family. Do you think that it is like everything else in life, just another class system? Do you see the forums on here very competitive? What do you personally term as a player?

RCdc -> RE: The Player and the meaning behind it. (10/1/2009 8:00:59 AM)
I believe people get so wrapped up in the labels people want to dish out, they end up accepting roles that they don't necessarily feel fit them, but - when in Rome... So they might be a sadist, but they end up as 'dominant' and then get accused of not being real or dominant enough! So, no - personally I do not see anyone as 'players' in the respect that it's a lesser of two evil (so to speak). quote: Do you think that it is like everything else in life, just another class system? I never thought of it that way before - but yes. quote: Do you see the forums on here very competitive? Of course. quote: What do you personally term as a player? I don't use the term personally. It's condecending and assumes usually something negative. If someone came to me and called themselves it, sure, I can and would dig it and cool for them. But sofar, it's not occured. Big loveup to you and Steve! the.dark.

Andalusite -> RE: The Player and the meaning behind it. (10/1/2009 8:06:41 AM)
I've only seen "player" used like "playboy." Someone who doesn't want relationships, either stringing people along, or jumping from one to the next. I do think that on this particular site, "top" and "bottom" are often used as insults (mostly directed toward people who do identify along the D/s or M/s spectrum, but don't fit that particular person's perceptions). I see the "oh, he's just a bottom, not a submissive, he doesn't actually want a relationship" thing all the time over on Ask A Mistress, and occasionally directed toward female submissives.

Acer49 -> RE: The Player and the meaning behind it. (10/1/2009 8:12:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz Every so often the words 'Only Players' comes rolling off someones tongue. It is usually said in a condescending manner and seems to interpret (at least to me) that its of lesser importance, not the real McCoy. It reminds me of the sailing clubs where some people only pootle around on there boats at the weekend and others who cross big oceans and fight blustering storms. There is a real snobbery between who is a real sailor and who is a player. In this lifestyle I think there are certainly people that only play the game and its usually with an agenda, it has to be or why on earth would they do it? A man with no Dominant inclination could set himself up as a Dominant to gain (he hopes) sexual favors especially from someone half his age or a pro sub or pro Mistress with no dominant or submissive inclination could set themselves up to earn good money. but what about the Sadist that doesn't have a dominant side... is he more of a player than the Dominant that doesn't have a sadistic side or one that has both Dominant and sadistic tendencies? or the masochist that loves pain but can't submit. Is he/she a player when you compare them to someone who is submissive? If your answer is yes then why do you feel that way? Switch is a classic player in many peoples minds and yet they just desire to taste both sides of the kneel. There desire is no less than a submissive who wishes to call her husband her Master and walk 3 steps behind him when out in public and she is no more a player than the submissive man that secretly pays a pro Mistress once a month but spends the rest of the month with his unsuspecting family. Do you think that it is like everything else in life, just another class system? Do you see the forums on here very competitive? What do you personally term as a player? I believe a player is simply someone who places the value of play activites and sex above the importance of the relationship value of their individual partners outside of those two activities.I do not believe one's title is in anyway related to whether or not you are a player. A class system? Yes some may seem to think so, but since when should we ever allow anyone to determine our individual value or worth forums competitive? in what way?

LadyPact -> RE: The Player and the meaning behind it. (10/1/2009 8:24:37 AM)
I was with you right up until you got to the part about the client seeing the pro once a month behind his family's back. While that person may very well be a submissive, I don't see a business transaction the same as a personal dynamic. I wouldn't call that person a player, but I would call them a client. Not too long ago, boijen had a thread going about a related issue where littlesarbonn wrote an excellent piece on the matter, which was a very good read. I think it would be foolish to believe that there aren't some folks out there who are just playing the game. You gave a couple of good examples of agenda (males seeking sex or females cashing in) as to why people would do that. Not everybody is doing this for the same motivations. For that matter, I don't think many of us would want to be. Now if you're asking if I see a masochist the same way that I do as a submissive or a sadist the same way as I do a Dominant, no, I don't. I see a masochist as a masochist, a submissive as a submissive, and so on. There are plenty of folks out there who will tell you they are one and they are absolutely not the other. I don't see that as a class system. I see that as correct terminology. I don't see the forums as competitive. I see them more as an opportunity to get different perspectives from different walks of BDSM life. Does that mean that I'm going to agree with what everybody calls themselves? Nope. If they are asking Me about how I define certain terms, I'm not changing My standards of those definitions just to suit somebody else. If they take offense to it, I'm afraid that's on them and not on Me. I'd be willing to bet that there are some people on these forums who don't see Me 'as good' or 'as much of' a Mistress as others because I have what is basically a vanilla marriage, or because I'm poly, or for a dozen other reasons. That's ok. I'm not trying to live up to their standards. I'm living up to My own. The only definition that I have for the term player in My insufficient caffeinated morning would be someone who is deceptive about the label they are using because of their intent.

RCdc -> RE: The Player and the meaning behind it. (10/1/2009 8:35:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I don't see the forums as competitive. I see them more as an opportunity to get different perspectives from different walks of BDSM life. See this surprises me. Maybe I misunderstood the question. People are competative - maybe the forums are not. Obviously there are exceptions - like yourself - but how many times do you read people posting truisms? Realisms? And saying 'hes not a real insert here he is just getting his rocks off' - just on one single post by some woman whom has suddenly been dropped like a stone? How many times do you see the 'hes not a real dom but a fake'? Making comparrisons with dismissals is competing. It's saying, I know the score (regardless the limited information). Dearest Lady Pact - I will also say I have not seen you post (often) on the Pol and Relig forum... now there - the forums are competitive.[:D] Regards to your house the.dark.

allthatjaz -> RE: The Player and the meaning behind it. (10/1/2009 8:44:26 AM)
I don't see a client that pays a Mistress once a month as a player. I mean, he may well be a player but on the other hand he's more likely to be deeply submissive or masochistic or both. What I was saying was that seeing a pro Domme once a month makes him no less submissive than anyone else. I don't see a masochist the same way that I see a submissive but I don't see either to be less than the other. I don't think of a submissive as more valued than a masochist and that's across this whole spectrum.......... I don't give brownie points but what I am aware of is that female submission and male and female dominance is held generally in much higher esteem than someone for example who switches or just likes pain. The later tend to get labeled as either players or just not taking all this seriously enough.

TurboJugend -> RE: The Player and the meaning behind it. (10/1/2009 8:46:24 AM)
A player for me is someone who tries to get what he wants...and when he knows he got it.....moves on. It is the play that he wants...not the result.

AnimusRex -> RE: The Player and the meaning behind it. (10/1/2009 8:56:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz A. Do you think that it is like everything else in life, just another class system? B. Do you see the forums on here very competitive? C. What do you personally term as a player? My answers- A. Yes, B. No, and C, Honestly, I don't use the term. I recall back in 1998 when I first started, there was a class snobbery- those who practiced in real life looked down on those were only experienced it in chat rooms, those who lived it as a lifestyle looked down on those who only went to clubs on weekends, etc etc. I recall that those were days when people spoke with a straight face about having been trained in the "Old Houses of Europe", and this of course gave them a superior view of things as a Real and True Dominant/ submissive/ whatever. You put it very well, that in all things like sailing, or hunting, golfing or hell, cross-stitching, there are always going to be those who will be quick to tell you that they have a superior view or position, and you, my dear, are a mere dilletante, a weekend warrior, and perhaps in time you can grow to have the level of sophistication and understanding they have. There are as many ways of practicing BDSM as there are practitioners; some really do only prefer it to be a kinky sex game, others see it as a lifestyle; some love the dark taboo aspects of it, others see it as perfectly natural and normal. Bad behavior (lying and cheating) is hardly limited to the BDSM world. In the Real World, people lie and cheat all the time to gain power, sex and advantage- we don't assign a special title to it, we just call it by its ordinary name, lying and cheating. If there is such thing as a Player, I would vote that it be a person who went around calling others Players.

allthatjaz -> RE: The Player and the meaning behind it. (10/1/2009 8:58:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I don't see the forums as competitive. I see them more as an opportunity to get different perspectives from different walks of BDSM life. See this surprises me. Maybe I misunderstood the question. People are competative - maybe the forums are not. Obviously there are exceptions - like yourself - but how many times do you read people posting truisms? Realisms? And saying 'hes not a real insert here he is just getting his rocks off' - just on one single post by some woman whom has suddenly been dropped like a stone? How many times do you see the 'hes not a real dom but a fake'? Making comparrisons with dismissals is competing. It's saying, I know the score (regardless the limited information). Dearest Lady Pact - I will also say I have not seen you post (often) on the Pol and Relig forum... now there - the forums are competitive.[:D] Regards to your house the.dark. Waves to the.dark & Lady Pact I was surprised by this answer too because I see a huge amount of competitiveness on here but then if I am honest I can't remember one post where LadyP came over as competitive. You gave some good examples of what I have seen a lot of but the ones that really get to me are those who are not prepared to give the asked for advice but come on the forum just to state that 'My sub would never do such a thing' (because my submissive is better than yours) and 'I care too much about my sub to ever do that' (I am a more caring Master than you)

allthatjaz -> RE: The Player and the meaning behind it. (10/1/2009 9:07:02 AM)
TJ.... I often wonder if those sort of people just lack in imagination. They like the chase but are not sure what to do with the goods. Rex... My ex partner always used to call them 'weekend warriors' I haven't heard that term in a long time. Your right about the old class snobbery but I think it is still around to an extent.

LadyPact -> RE: The Player and the meaning behind it. (10/1/2009 9:19:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark See this surprises me. Maybe I misunderstood the question. People are competative - maybe the forums are not. Obviously there are exceptions - like yourself - but how many times do you read people posting truisms? Realisms? And saying 'hes not a real insert here he is just getting his rocks off' - just on one single post by some woman whom has suddenly been dropped like a stone? How many times do you see the 'hes not a real dom but a fake'? Making comparrisons with dismissals is competing. It's saying, I know the score (regardless the limited information). Dearest Lady Pact - I will also say I have not seen you post (often) on the Pol and Relig forum... now there - the forums are competitive.[:D] Regards to your house the.dark. I don't think you're seeing it wrong, the.dark. I think it's just different perspectives. While I agree that people are competitive, I see the forums more as ideas and opinions. Heated opinions at times, but still just opinions. Those realisms and truisms probably are real and true to the person who is saying them. It may be very well what they believe. While I don't support the One True Way theory, I absolutely believe in the My Way theory. In other words, My Way works for Me. If it didn't, I'd be doing something else. Just like the way things work for you and Darcy. From seeing your posts over the last couple of years, I know you've got a good thing going. Some of what transpires in that might not work for Me at all, but it certainly works for you. The dropped like a stone thing, yes, I know what you mean. I do think there are some out there who use this whole thing just as a ploy for sex while telling the girl in question something entirely different. I wish I could say otherwise, but I don't think that everybody who decides they have BDSM interest is always honest with everybody else. We're no different than the rest of the planet on that score. It happens so often that I think that might be why that is the first answer some get when they ask why Master played once and now doesn't call anymore. Oh, the Politics and Religion section is one area I don't venture into often. Part of that is due to us being a military family. Some of the topics hit closer to home than I would like. I admit that I don't do well on certain subjects related to the military actions or opinions about such. I'm better off staying out of that. I only dip My toe in there once in a while. My best to you and to Darcy. I hope you've had a wonderful day.

Missokyst -> RE: The Player and the meaning behind it. (10/1/2009 9:26:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz A. Do you think that it is like everything else in life, just another class system? B. Do you see the forums on here very competitive? C. What do you personally term as a player? A. Most things are class systems in some form B. No.. or I don't particularly care what others think enough to view it as a competition C, I don't use the term. If I did I think I would see it more like Andulsite above who pegged it as a playboy type.

DesFIP -> RE: The Player and the meaning behind it. (10/1/2009 9:33:20 AM)
I define a player as someone who lies in order to accomplish his agenda. Wants to get you into bed and swears he's bowled over by your wit and charm and is sincerely attached. But disappears the next morning to lie to someone else to get that notch on his bedpost. If you're just a sadist, then say so. Don't claim you want the responsibility of making decisions for her if you don't. Conversely if you aren't a sadist, don't claim you are because you think she's your soulmate. She will find out and be unsatisfied and leave. If you just want to have sex with her because you're in instant lust, then be honest about it. You may well be turned down but you were honest and forthright and gave her the option. And she may well say yes simply because you were honest and she feels the same. Player to me equals liar. And yes, the man who crosses the ocean alone may well consider the other yachtsmen Sunday sailors but that doesn't negate the fact that they in fact do own boats and do sail them to the best of their ability.

TurboJugend -> RE: The Player and the meaning behind it. (10/1/2009 10:18:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz TJ.... I often wonder if those sort of people just lack in imagination. They like the chase but are not sure what to do with the goods. They have no feelings..and propably end very lonely in the end.

Acer49 -> RE: The Player and the meaning behind it. (10/1/2009 10:27:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz I don't see a client that pays a Mistress once a month as a player. I mean, he may well be a player but on the other hand he's more likely to be deeply submissive or masochistic or both. What I was saying was that seeing a pro Domme once a month makes him no less submissive than anyone else. I don't see a masochist the same way that I see a submissive but I don't see either to be less than the other. I don't think of a submissive as more valued than a masochist and that's across this whole spectrum.......... I don't give brownie points but what I am aware of is that female submission and male and female dominance is held generally in much higher esteem than someone for example who switches or just likes pain. The later tend to get labeled as either players or just not taking all this seriously enough. A masochist does not imply submission, no more than a sadist is a dominant. I think the confusion is that the dominant position during play is normally controlled by the sadist because he/she is controlling the scene and the submissive position is normally held by the masochist because he/she is the one who is receiving thus viewed as submitting. However, when the scene is over, they could be simply two people enjoy this type of play; there is no dominance or submission attached to either. Individuals who visit pros are no more submissive or dominant than their lifestyle counterparts. Many may view this person a player because of the limited depth of the emotional commitment in this type of relationship. The depth of the pro's emotional involvement is usually limited to one's financial resources. To make a blanket statement that a switch is generally of less value than a submissive might be considered misleading. They could easily have more value as man/women to their respective partner. You must also consider the amount of switching the individual may do. It can also be suggested that a switch maybe more accepting of a poly type relationship than a submissive might be. I will not speak for anyone other than myself when I say I do not all this labeling and classifying will lead to much more than a migraine headache

porcelaine -> RE: The Player and the meaning behind it. (10/1/2009 10:39:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz If your answer is yes then why do you feel that way? no i don't. how could i possibly know what this person is or isn't without becoming acquainted? even then, who i am to define their lifestyle? it sounds a wee bit pretentious and very arrogant. why would my opinion matter if they weren't those things to me? quote: Do you think that it is like everything else in life, just another class system? not at all. why would i willingly become someone else's slogan? i think those that subscribe to and accept these silly notions are inherently insecure and need to demean others to offset what's lacking within. quote: Do you see the forums on here very competitive? it is a virtual community of familiar strangers. it is about as competitive as a trip to whole foods. as with most things our time is what we make it. quote: What do you personally term as a player? eighteen holes of golf on a nice summer day when my game is on target. that's a game i play. i am a player. what people do in their private lives is not my concern. my sport is golf, not expending energy labeling strangers. porcelaine

LadyPact -> RE: The Player and the meaning behind it. (10/1/2009 11:39:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz I don't see a client that pays a Mistress once a month as a player. I mean, he may well be a player but on the other hand he's more likely to be deeply submissive or masochistic or both. What I was saying was that seeing a pro Domme once a month makes him no less submissive than anyone else. I don't see a masochist the same way that I see a submissive but I don't see either to be less than the other. I don't think of a submissive as more valued than a masochist and that's across this whole spectrum.......... I don't give brownie points but what I am aware of is that female submission and male and female dominance is held generally in much higher esteem than someone for example who switches or just likes pain. The later tend to get labeled as either players or just not taking all this seriously enough. I missed this earlier, so I apologize. No, I don't see a client as a player, either. I do see it different than a dynamic. The other to Me is more of a business exchange. Kind of the same way as I see My nail tech or My hairdresser. I'm paying them for their time and for the service that they provide. Sure, we're friendly while I'm there, but we don't have a relationship. I'm not their friend. I'm their client. (Not that I wouldn't be friends with My nail tech. He's a great person and I was really impressed that he speaks three languages.) That doesn't negate the fact that the client may very well be a submissive, a masochist, or anything else. For that hour a month, that person may feel more like themselves than any other. There are personal dynamics out there where time spent is even less than that. I guess the difference might be in the level of importance both participants are placing on the time together. While I've seen a number of clients rave on and on about their experiences with the pro that they see, I've not noticed the same type of expressions from the side of the pros. Yes, they will say what a nice person their client is or something to that effect, but it's not on the same level as when they are speaking about their personal submissives. You did mention the word value, so that got Me thinking. In My interpretation, I'm going to value someone much more to Me if they fit My personal preferences. I am going to want someone who is both a masochist as well as a submissive because I'm a sadist as well as a Dominant. That makes us better suited to each other and more likely to have our wants fulfilled. Someone who identified as a bedroom submissive, for example, would be a terrible match for Me. They will be a great match for someone who is looking for that particular arrangement. I'm still a casual player outside of the dynamic. In other words, I enjoy beating people for fun. In that sense I'll use the word because I do refer to S/m play for fun as a verb and I'm the person involved in that verb. I'm more likely to call Myself a top in that case. While I have a great time doing it, I can't say it holds the same importance as being a Mistress to clip.

Moonhead -> RE: The Player and the meaning behind it. (10/1/2009 2:33:15 PM)
I think "player" basically means "somebody I don't like". It's like calling a goth a gloomcookie.

DomImus -> RE: The Player and the meaning behind it. (10/1/2009 6:25:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AnimusRex I recall back in 1998 when I first started, there was a class snobbery- those who practiced in real life looked down on those were only experienced it in chat rooms, those who lived it as a lifestyle looked down on those who only went to clubs on weekends, etc etc. You put it very well, that in all things like sailing, or hunting, golfing or hell, cross-stitching, there are always going to be those who will be quick to tell you that they have a superior view or position, and you, my dear, are a mere dilletante, a weekend warrior, and perhaps in time you can grow to have the level of sophistication and understanding they have. There are all sorts of twists on this, too. There are folks who live all of this on a daily basis - 24/7, if you will - who tend to stay in the shallow waters. They're in the water all the time but they rarely get wet above the waist. I'm sort of a weekend warrior based on your description. This is something that I very literally turn off and on at will. Being in an LDR and being a very physical type of person exacerbates this situation. When the switch is on I'm in the deep end of the pool well beyond where many 24/7'ers may ever want or need to venture. So in this regard 24/7 and weekend warrior can take on meanings that go beyond the what the label implies. As far as the competitive nature of the forums are concerned there was a thread a little while ago where someone asked what value people took away from the forums, or words to that effect. Someone used the phrase "separating the wheat from the chaff" which was a good analogy but I added that one man's wheat is indeed another man's chaff. There are people who inhabit these forums who are clearly involved in a game of one-upmanship from the get go but there are many others who disguise it very well. Put another way, one person's respected elder is another's pompous blowhard.

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