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RE: No Limits Slaves Who Say They Won't Do Housework - 10/7/2009 10:37:11 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Ja, don't be so quick to go off on me. You may not like the way I say things (and boy don't I know that!!!), but if you read it and think about it, I usually am in general agreement with you, on real world issues of male/female relations when you are not on a rant.

R

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RE: No Limits Slaves Who Say They Won't Do Housework - 10/7/2009 12:16:25 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

quote:

Perhaps because the "something more useful" she could be doing has not been spelled out in terms of examples by any of those who state that they don't do that?


Ummm and you or anyone else is INCAPABLE OF ASKING her to elaborate or some other silly thing like ask an open ended question that will have her elaborating on HER expectations and understands and views of the future?  I mean hell go figure, a conversation starting -- who'd have thunk it.  The dominant, the one who wants the control who wants to be the guider and such actually having to have a conversation instead of just stoping point blank at a statement and get all up in arms and how dare she etc.  Yeah -- ASSUME -- you know the drill on this, yes?
Actually, I am quite capable of starting a conversation.  I am also quite capable of understanding the difference between slavery as it exists in the dictionary, slavery as it exists in differing cultures, and slavery of the BDSM variety.  When I see someone like beth, whose slavery is what it is and comes from within, not instigated by Merc or others, then I agree.  When I see slavery that is not natural but the state that the person wishes to assume and has agreed to assume and, upon doing so, accepts that all that she doesn't like can be set aside because that's what her Master decides and goes on with him because it is what she signed up for, I understand.  What I don't understand is the concept of someone who declares themselves a slave who sets up standards not based solely on who their prospective master is but also on how closely their definition of slave comes to the "slave's" own construct.  But hey, to each their own, right?  As is often the way of argument on here, a person can call themselves a tailor if they want to and not be able to sew a straight seam.  This is why I go looking for a submissive and don't go looking for a slave...if I wanted one, I'd want one who was closer to the first two examples I gave rather than the third.


quote:

No, i am seriously saying THE SLAVE IS BETTER SERVED, omg a slave being SERVED by doing something she enjoys in her relationship to a Man so that she isn't miserable and thrives in his slavery.  Yeah i know OMG OMG a slave somehow being BETTER SERVED at doing something she is good at, talented at, enjoys all in service of her Master which also serves her.  You know it really does help when one doesn't look at TWO WORDS such as BETTER SERVED associated with slave and become all aghast at how dare a slave be served and presume it means the MAN WOULDN'T be served because well gee golly the slave is getting to do what she enjoys and draw assumptions.  In this aspect, you are thinking i mean the Man is catering to, or giving in, or allowing HER to make the decisions -- you are wrong.

angel
No...I don't think I am.  I've often stated that no one is going to stay in a relationship in which they are continuously unhappy.  What I am saying is that when it comes to catering to a slave's whims or taking into consideration whether or not she is served better by doing something other than the task I've designated for her would not be my primary consideration a great deal of the time.  But there again, I see the consideration of a slave's wants and desires and happiness vs. my own to be less of a priority than it would be in a submissive's case...and judging by the arguing I've seen on these threads between submissives and slaves,  I don't think I could be faulted for havijng arrived at the impression that is supposedly how it is for slaves also.

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RE: No Limits Slaves Who Say They Won't Do Housework - 10/7/2009 12:32:21 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

quote:

what they want it to mean as it suits them


Okay really stupid question, but do you really believe that a woman slave or not, no limits or limits would actually enter into something that doesn't SUIT them? 
No, not a stupid question...if that had been all I stated.  But it wasn't...the full statement was this " Opinions are fine but the person...and people...referred to are then, as noted by many others, twisting the word slave to mean what they want it to mean as it suits them."  And in the whole body of what was said, what was being referred to was standards for the potential partner vs. defining slavery.  A lot of difference between that body of words and the sentence you brought forth out of context.  Personally, as noted in a prior post, I don't think anyone should enter into something that doesn't suit them.  What I DO think is that the word "slavery" should not be bent all out of shape to fit a person when a term such as submissive would work as well.

If that were the serious no sarcasm case, you are pretty much saying that a woman wanting to enter into slavery would take on any tom, dick or harry to be a slave too.   Now, i am a person whose understanding is that the slavery of a woman is determined by the Man.  However, i also know the actuality and reality that if the situation doesn't SUIT the woman, she won't just kneel to anyone and say okay cool.{/quote]Again, as I have stated, I have no argument with a woman choosing someone they are compatible with and I have yet to say that I think any woman who calls herself "slave" should kneel to every Tom, Dick and/or Harriet that commands her.  Read my prior post on this thread...read my posts on this subject on other threads concerning this subject...my problem lies with the distortion of the definition, not the choice of who the slavery is given to.

quote:

I really think your naitivity is showing in 1) you think no limits is a concept of do anything to me baby, and 2) you believe women entering into slavery have no concept of selection based on what they need.
I've already addressed your second point...as to your first, if you can ever find any post I have made on this thread or any other thread in which I have stated the first...in anything that remotely approaches your mistaken concept of what I believe, then bring it forth and I will apologize.  But...and forgive me if I seem naive...if no-limits doesn't mean no limits (and I am not talking the usual "no limits" of death, dismemberment, illegal activities, etc.)...then why use it?

quote:

I guess i am just blinking at your whole understanding that seems like there isn't much understanding of actuality of how human nature works and selects versus the i hate to use it but fantasy idea that women have no selective process when it comes to being a slave be it of the Man, of the situation, of the beliefs etc.
Again, show me where...using the full post and highlighting the evidentiary part...where I have stated that women have no right to selective process in choosing who they will give their submission or their slavery to.

quote:

There is a lot that goes into it -- and its not -- eenie, meanie, miney mo on the slave's part just as it isn't on the Man's part.  They are each looking for something.

angel
Yes, there is.  And I have yet to deny that portion of your statement.

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RE: No Limits Slaves Who Say They Won't Do Housework - 10/7/2009 6:25:45 PM   
CaringandReal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Falkenstein



Actually, some people have trained their cat to use human toilets. It is true! I saw it on the internet !





Link, please!

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RE: No Limits Slaves Who Say They Won't Do Housework - 10/7/2009 6:33:44 PM   
CaringandReal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

...I think on a relationship level, no limits basically means "we have explored enough to know our limits are well-suited"...


that might work for you, your husband, your Master and his wife, but there are others who really do mean they don't feel the need to limit their partner...and not because they have gone through an exploration of well-suited lists of limits.
 
everyone is not an insane violent sadistic murderer merely kept in check by everyone else's hard limits and safewords.
 
some folk actually believe that if an individual intends to stab/disfigure/dismember/kill another, having it as a "limit" or safewording right before it happens isn't going to PREVENT it...so what, exactly, is the point in bringing it into a discussion about an intimate relationship?
 
have you, or anyone you personally know, had such an experience and were indeed able to prevent someone from stabbing/disfiguring/dismembering/killing you by listing it as a limit, or using your safeword?


Wow, it's the tit-slicing argument come back to haunt me! We used to talk about this a lot in the bad old days of alt.sex.bondage. FWIW, I was in your camp.


< Message edited by CaringandReal -- 10/7/2009 6:34:11 PM >

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RE: No Limits Slaves Who Say They Won't Do Housework - 10/7/2009 6:57:54 PM   
CaringandReal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine


i will love my Owner. i wasn't implying that would never occur. but love isn't why i choose to serve Him. if that is the crux of my reasoning then the likelihood of my servitude changing should those feelings alter is very probable. i have found that the feelings you've mentioned will eventually come to pass. but at the onset i am on bended knee because i agreed to such and haven't affixed a time frame on the manifestation of the other components. i feel love adds to my servitude, but it will never be the sole reason it exists.




But then what causes you to go on bended knee to begin with? For me, it's two things:

1. Wow, he's cool as fuck!

and

2. I can hardly believe it, but he actually seems a little interested in me, too. (non-aloof)

I need the second, admittedly, because I have low self-esteem (didn't used to, but losing your master sometimes does weird things to your head) and wouldn't otherwise dare to bother him.

_____________________________

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RE: No Limits Slaves Who Say They Won't Do Housework - 10/7/2009 7:01:30 PM   
CaringandReal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

i am as well. and i'm painting the roses red.

porcelaine



Hmm... What color were they before you painted them red?

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"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

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RE: No Limits Slaves Who Say They Won't Do Housework - 10/7/2009 7:05:41 PM   
CaringandReal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

OOH! OOH! It sounds like it's time for my useless "Four (or Five) Types of Slaves!"

Hrm, should I do this here, or in another thread?


[covers ears] Not in my thread you don't!

(actually I think it would be hiliarious--I like a raging bonfire, oops another fetish slips my lips)

_____________________________

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RE: No Limits Slaves Who Say They Won't Do Housework - 10/7/2009 7:18:40 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

But then what causes you to go on bended knee to begin with? For me, it's two things:

1. Wow, he's cool as fuck!

and

2. I can hardly believe it, but he actually seems a little interested in me, too. (non-aloof)

I need the second, admittedly, because I have low self-esteem (didn't used to, but losing your master sometimes does weird things to your head) and wouldn't otherwise dare to bother him.


the Man is what always grabs my attention. i look at who He is as a person. how He conducts His affairs. i have a decided preference for intelligence. i notice if He's articulate and adept at communication. i pay attention to His temperament. if He changes like the wind we won't work. He will upset the balance i enjoy. most importantly is mastery of self. undisciplined people that are lazy or reckless are the sort i avoid. i'm too driven and meticulous. He'll make my type a brain frazzle quickly. it is a rather complex formula in some respects. the dominant things never get the same focus because those are impacted by Mister Man Himself. if i can't stomach that part of Him it is pointless to continue.

there are other things that you just can't quantify. sometimes you're lucky and they show up in spades. a certain element of charisma is always nice. someone passionate with a zest for life makes me take notice. sensitivity and the ability to empathize bring a smile to my face. then there's the impact He has upon me. if He can grab hold of my head and make it appear effortless while He's doing it, that is priceless. while i can have an affinity for someone, becoming ensnared is much harder. it is a rarity in all honesty. if i see this it is probable i will be His if we're compatible in other ways.

porcelaine


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RE: No Limits Slaves Who Say They Won't Do Housework - 10/7/2009 7:20:19 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

Hmm... What color were they before you painted them red?


why black of course. and always crimson red. that's the only shade i like.

porcelaine


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His will; my fate.

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RE: No Limits Slaves Who Say They Won't Do Housework - 10/7/2009 7:37:53 PM   
Andalusite


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
how much I try to inspire her submission during this courtship is questionable as I tend to be just ME when I am dealing with someone...because if they don't like me as I am, then they aren't going to like me if I have used false pretenses or artificial constructs in the hopes of becoming interesting to them while courting them.  Inspiration as its been spoken of by some posters on here has come across as a sort of "test"...and I don't do tests.  The level of dominance I feel towards a person has more to do with who they are and how I feel towards that "who" than it does with any specific behavior of theirs.

CD, a bit of it is linked to behaviour/actions initially, but more about how I react to them doing it. It's not a test I'm putting them through, but I have no clue whether or not I *could* be attracted to, dominant toward, or submissive toward someone until we actually engage in a couple of things like hair pulling, biting, or at least their expression/body language. I don't want them to jump through hoops, but I don't see how I could possibly know any of those things if we don't interact in ways that trigger them - until then, I'm pretty much neutral toward nearly *everybody*. I can know I'm *not* attracted to someone, if they're sufficiently ugly or slobby or have poor character or whatever. People just don't show up on my sexual or D/s "radar" until we actually explore a bit.

beth, I've never gotten a "slavier than thou" vibe from you. When I see random strangers who are broken down on the side of the road, but don't feel safe stopping for, or strangers who are obviously upset, or homeless people, touch my heart a bit - I'm kind of a softie that way. If they are someone I actually care about, it's far more intense. I don't feel driven to serve them, but do feel driven somewhat to help them, if the distinction makes sense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
Actually, I probably would. Just because a sub/slave does not see hir submission as an on/off switch doesn't mean they they have no other means by which to gauge the quality of a partner.

I don't think that way about beth or other submissives or slaves who are always submissive toward everyone. I can empathise with their struggle to *NOT* serve/submit to someone, if it is in conflict with their Master's orders, for that matter. I do have the impression, both here and on the other side, that a lot of people do prefer submissives who react to only one person, or a handful of people, that way. For me, there isn't an on/off switch, or at least, not one that I can control. I can choose not to act on feeling submissive, but I can't just stop feeling that way if they have pushed my submissive buttons. Likewise, no matter how much I might respect and admire someone, I can't consciously decide to be attracted to, dominant toward, or submissive toward him. There's nothing wrong with you wanting someone who is submissive to everyone, but expecting all submissives and/or all slaves here to be that way is very unrealistic, and accusing them of not really being submissive or not really being a slave seems uncalled for.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
When I see someone like beth, whose slavery is what it is and comes from within, not instigated by Merc or others, then I agree. When I see slavery that is not natural but the state that the person wishes to assume and has agreed to assume and, upon doing so, accepts that all that she doesn't like can be set aside because that's what her Master decides and goes on with him because it is what she signed up for, I understand. What I don't understand is the concept of someone who declares themselves a slave who sets up standards not based solely on who their prospective master is but also on how closely their definition of slave comes to the "slave's" own construct.

Hmm, I wasn't actively searching for a M/s relationship. If anything, I was more wary of becoming a submissive or slave than any other D/s or BDSM role - it takes a lot of communication about expectations, I tend to lean more toward being dominant than submissive in relationships in general, etc. I would consider myself to be pretty much in the second category you list - I'm very much willing to do a lot of things that I don't like, because that is what my Master wants of me, because that is what I've signed up for. At the same time, I did feel it was important to make sure that I could realistically live up to his expectations of me, that I wasn't making promises that I had a reasonable chance of keeping. As it happens, my definition and views of slavery don't align exactly with my Master's, and if I had found a slave instead, the dynamic would probably be different in some areas than what he and I share. I really had to give over *my* definitions, my views, and focus on what *he* wanted, rather than on what *my* expectations were, in some areas. If his definition or expectations of a slave were outright incompatible with mine, or weren't something I could agree to, then we wouldn't have been compatible, though.

CaringandReal, here ya go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQbHS4YJOMc

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 10/7/2009 7:46:22 PM >

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RE: No Limits Slaves Who Say They Won't Do Housework - 10/8/2009 7:21:02 PM   
CaringandReal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

*sorry.  changed my mind about jumping into this cauldron.



We be boilin' !

To me, there are scarier threads on here: that TPE 24/7 one for instance. It make my head ache! :/

_____________________________

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RE: No Limits Slaves Who Say They Won't Do Housework - 10/8/2009 7:48:43 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
Actually, I probably would. Just because a sub/slave does not see hir submission as an on/off switch doesn't mean they they have no other means by which to gauge the quality of a partner.

I don't think that way about beth or other submissives or slaves who are always submissive toward everyone. I can empathise with their struggle to *NOT* serve/submit to someone, if it is in conflict with their Master's orders, for that matter.

I obviously cannot speak for beth but I do not suspect these concernes are ever of being submissive to everyone in the sense of being openly pliable to be bedded by anyone assertive to demand it from them but rather a natural propensity to have a "serving" attitude, and the struggle for whether some people deserve less tact and catering that such a slave would be prone to give.

I doubt any slave that would describe themselves as such in a 'ntural' sort of way is really of the mindset that they struggle to enter into M/s relationships with every suitable human they encounter.

Being such a slave does not eliminate the quality-meter in their heads.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

I do have the impression, both here and on the other side, that a lot of people do prefer submissives who react to only one person, or a handful of people, that way.

I have fallen prey to this mentality before. For many people, it's the most profound way to feel genuinely special. The vanilla world is rife with people entering into relationships with the hop/presumption that their partner will change their (negative) ways just because they are such an profound factor in their partner's lives that it extracts it magically.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

For me, there isn't an on/off switch, or at least, not one that I can control. I can choose not to act on feeling submissive, but I can't just stop feeling that way if they have pushed my submissive buttons. Likewise, no matter how much I might respect and admire someone, I can't consciously decide to be attracted to, dominant toward, or submissive toward him.

An interesting side-topic indeed. Not necessarily relevant, I think...but it does bring up a question of what intangibles people have that are more apt to trigger our D/s traits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

There's nothing wrong with you wanting someone who is submissive to everyone, but expecting all submissives and/or all slaves here to be that way is very unrealistic, and accusing them of not really being submissive or not really being a slave seems uncalled for.

That's a big gray area. When someone says that (me included) it's going to obviously be a projection of what is thought to be a necessary trait for someone in that role. I won't depreciate anyone's role in any dynamic they are happy in, but certain mentalities can be argued to be less becoming of what would commonly be considered a "slave" than others. Ideally, these sort of discussions aren't meant to demean anyone at all...rather, to give them more information as to what semantic terminology will best describe them, either to potential suitors or to audience members.

And, that one personal is "slavier" than the next isn't something that involves a necessary "better" or "worse" reaction, but the degree to which someone surrenders can be measured. If certain submissives get upset that another individual has given up more control of decisions than they have, that's an issue with the emotionally bothered party.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

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RE: No Limits Slaves Who Say They Won't Do Housework - 10/9/2009 3:26:49 AM   
ranja


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housework needs to be done... the person in charge can obviously determine who will do it and when... not all Masters are filthy rich or have slaves that earn much more outside the house than in it...
For many of us it is a given fact that the woman in the house cooks and cleans while the man puts the rubbish out, cleans the gutters and mends the car... this set up works brilliant for many people.

Also, i do think that people sell themselves indeed... whether you go for a job interview, look for a new partner, try to impress your boss, need approval from the council for some enterprise you want to start... build a profile on CM... it is all about presenting yourself and a 'no limit' slave who lists housework as a hard limit looks like a total tit in my eyes.

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RE: No Limits Slaves Who Say They Won't Do Housework - 10/9/2009 6:20:14 AM   
Justme696


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal
Link, please!


off topic

http://www.google.com/search?q=cat+on+toilet&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1

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RE: No Limits Slaves Who Say They Won't Do Housework - 10/9/2009 8:15:25 AM   
Andalusite


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quote:

NihilusZero
I obviously cannot speak for beth but I do not suspect these concernes are ever of being submissive to everyone in the sense of being openly pliable to be bedded by anyone assertive to demand it from them but rather a natural propensity to have a "serving" attitude, and the struggle for whether some people deserve less tact and catering that such a slave would be prone to give. I doubt any slave that would describe themselves as such in a 'ntural' sort of way is really of the mindset that they struggle to enter into M/s relationships with every suitable human they encounter. Being such a slave does not eliminate the quality-meter in their heads.

beth has said in the past that she did have that propensity before she got involved with Merc, and a few other women who are in slave mode in general have made similar remarks. I wasn't necessarily referring to anything sex or BDSM-oriented. I happen to be naturally pretty service-oriented, but I wouldn't consider myself to be *submissive* or *slave* in general. Even if the actions are identical, even if I am obedient, the underlying mindset is miles apart. Besides, if someone tried to order me around forcefully, when they didn't have authority over me, my reaction tends to be to dig in my heels and get stubborn, whereas if they'd just asked nicely, I would have happily complied. An awful lot of people here *do* seem to get into a new M/s or D/s relationship (at least over the Internet) every couple of months.

quote:

NihilusZero
That's a big gray area. When someone says that (me included) it's going to obviously be a projection of what is thought to be a necessary trait for someone in that role. I won't depreciate anyone's role in any dynamic they are happy in, but certain mentalities can be argued to be less becoming of what would commonly be considered a "slave" than others. Ideally, these sort of discussions aren't meant to demean anyone at all...rather, to give them more information as to what semantic terminology will best describe them, either to potential suitors or to audience members. And, that one personal is "slavier" than the next isn't something that involves a necessary "better" or "worse" reaction, but the degree to which someone surrenders can be measured. If certain submissives get upset that another individual has given up more control of decisions than they have, that's an issue with the emotionally bothered party.

I don't get upset at all by people who are more deeply submissive or more enslaved or whatever than I am. People are all individuals, in their own relationship. I don't have any problems with you or anyone else having expectations of *your* slaves or submissives, since I'm not involved with you. When you try to claim that I and other women who are only submissive toward or enslaved by one man, or by a couple of individuals who bring out that side of us, it's mildly irritating. You obviously don't have any right to input in my relationship dynamic, including what titles we use, what my responsibilities are, and so forth. By trying to insist that you know better than we do whether or not I am my Master's slave, you're trying to exert authority that you simply do not have. Yes, I don't meet your personal definition to be your slave, but that's fine, since we're not going to be involved anyway.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 10/9/2009 8:17:31 AM >

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RE: No Limits Slaves Who Say They Won't Do Housework - 10/9/2009 10:47:27 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

...I obviously cannot speak for beth but I do not suspect these concernes are ever of being submissive to everyone in the sense of being openly pliable to be bedded by anyone assertive to demand it from them but rather a natural propensity to have a "serving" attitude, and the struggle for whether some people deserve less tact and catering that such a slave would be prone to give...orig:NihilusZero


quote:

...beth has said in the past that she did have that propensity before she got involved with Merc...orig:Andalusite


hey, now...SLUTS ARE PEOPLE, TOO!!!
 
and yes, in the past this slave has certainly been openly pliable to be bedded by anyone assertive enough to demand it (you can't rape the willing?)or just because they ooozed "deadsexy"...but that doesn't necessarily mean this slave is incapable of the integrity required to maintain a monogamous commitment, once one has been made OR that she doesn't still have that propensity.
that propensity is now focused on ONE, because of the integrity of this slave's commitment, not because it was brought out, inspired or earned by someone else's "je ne sais quoi".

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 237
RE: No Limits Slaves Who Say They Won't Do Housework - 10/9/2009 4:27:01 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

hey, now...SLUTS ARE PEOPLE, TOO!!!
 
and yes, in the past this slave has certainly been openly pliable to be bedded by anyone assertive enough to demand it (you can't rape the willing?)or just because they ooozed "deadsexy"...but that doesn't necessarily mean this slave is incapable of the integrity required to maintain a monogamous commitment, once one has been made OR that she doesn't still have that propensity.
that propensity is now focused on ONE, because of the integrity of this slave's commitment, not because it was brought out, inspired or earned by someone else's "je ne sais quoi".

[tangent]

I am compiling as exhaustive a list as possible of point accumulations that I've given out and I don't appear to have a total for you, which can't be right because I've followed your commentaries quite happily for some time. So I am awarding this snippet 50 points in order to create an initial balance.

[/tangent]


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(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 238
RE: No Limits Slaves Who Say They Won't Do Housework - 10/9/2009 5:34:13 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline 		You need a secretary, NZ 

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(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 239
RE: No Limits Slaves Who Say They Won't Do Housework - 10/9/2009 6:07:43 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

You need a secretary, NZ 

Is that an offer? Because...*looks around*...seriously...




_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)
Profile   Post #: 240
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