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UncleNasty -> E-notes (10/3/2009 10:26:08 AM)

A continuation from another thread.

Among the problems involved in housing currently is E-notes. An e-note is a digital copy of a promissory note and is created by merely scanning the original. Trading and selling of enotes has become very common in the modern world of securitization.

Typically hundreds, and/or thousands, of notes are generated by a mortgage broker, collected together and sold off in bulk to a "securitizer." Securitizers typically are purchasing in bulk from numerous brokers and originating lenders and bundle together thousands to tens of thousands of instruments into a pool. A typical pool will have $1 bn to $10 bn worth of instruments. From there they sell shares, or certificates, to investors. It is ultimately the investors that own the underlying instruments.

When brokers and/or originators make the exchange with the securitizer the only form of the instruments that is exchanged is in the form of e-notes. The original hard copy is destroyed. This is done because it is easier and cheaper to just "send it in an email," as it were. Among the laws that are perverted in this are the UCC, Article 3, which deals with "negotiation, indoresment and delivery."

Problems associated with this are common. The same enote, alleged to represent the original, frequently end up in more than one trust, or more than one pool, with each of them claiming to have full rights to enforce the associated security instrument (the mortgage, deed of trust, or lien*).

As an example one pool may have a contract to receive the payments and proceeds of the principal amounts. Another may have same for the interest up to 5.5%. Another the interest from 5.6% to 8%. Another still from 8.1% and up. Each of these parties can and does make the claim to be the owner and holder of the instruments with rights to enforce the instruments. None of them, however, actually has these rights.

But think about this. If we were dealing with a real note could it actually be owned and held by more than more one party at a time? Could more than one party make a lawful claim to rights to enforce? Clearly no. But an enote can be duplicated numerous times. Courts ignorance of the laws, and of the present standard operating procedures, continuously rule in error and grant parties not lawfully entitled to the rights to enforce judgment.

Is this really a big deal? I mean somebody did borrow the money, right?

Yes it is a big deal. Yes somebody did borrow the money. But who is it exactly that should be paid? We have multiple parties that are making claims on the same debt, each of them insisting they are the proper and lawful party entitled to "collect." But none of them actually have the right to do so. None of them actually hold the instrument/s. In many cases there is no party that will ever have those rights.

A read of UCC 3.604.1(a) reveals:

(1) A person entitled to enforce an instrument, with or without consideration, may discharge the obligation of a party to pay the instrument:
(a) By an intentional voluntary act, such as surrender of the instrument to the party, destruction, mutilation, or cancellation of the instrument, cancellation or striking out of the party's signature, or the addition of words to the instrument indicating discharge;

The creation of the e-note, and the destruction of the original, actually discharges the debt.


The parties attempting to enforce the rights to collect (Plaintiffs in foreclosures) are stooping to just about any level to avoid being held accountable to the laws - including bald faced lies and the utter fabrication of documents. I have a friend litigating a case in Wisconsin (no this isn't one of those "I have a cousin who works at the plant with a guy whose brother in law..." I know this individual personally and have read his pleadings and reviewed the evidence presented by Plaintiff) in which Plaintiff has proffered as evidence 3 different promissory notes, each with different terms, conditions and information. This is their attempt at creating out of thin air the evidence needed to "take his stuff." Why do they need to "create" the evidence? Because they don't really have it.

Of the foreclosure cases that are litgated it is becoming a little more common for courts to rule in accordance with the facts and the law. But only a little. More than 90% of foreclosures aren't defended at all. Of the remaining percentage the primary defense is to rush into BK court. Rarely is much of a defense mounted in this venue with most borrowers simply admitting to the debt, to the defective proof of claim tendered by the creditor, and to a repayment plan.

In the very small percentage of cases that are truly being litigated, being defended, there is a slow turning of the courts to an awareness of what has happened, what is happening, and according to the law what is wrong with most foreclosures.

Uncle Nasty






* In the world of mortgages there are 2 instruments - a promissory note which is a debt instrument, or a financial instrument - a mortgage, which is a security instrument. The two work together, and neither has much power on its own. A promise to pay is backed up with  the security of the mortgage. In other words if you don't pay they can come and take your stuff.

A note without a mortgage has little power. Without the mortgage a note holder CANNOT take the house/property. A mortgage without a note presents another problem. A mortgage can only  be enforced in the case of a default. Without also having the note the holder of a mortgage has not experienced a default. In either case a foreclosure is unlawful. Think of this as "bifurcation," or separation of the note and mortgage.

There are a couple of cases I cite as controlling in these instances:

230 F.2d 330
KIRBY LUMBER CORPORATION, Appellant, v.John W. WILLIAMS et al., Appellees. No. 15465. United States Court of Appeals Fifth Circuit. February 10, 1956. Rehearing Denied April 24, 1956.

"The note and mortgage are inseparable; the former as essential, the latter as an incident. An assignment of the note carries the mortgage with it, while an assignment of the latter alone is a nullity." Van Burkleo v. Southwestern, Tex.Civ.App., 39 S.W. 1085, 1087.3

And,

U.S. Supreme Court, SHELDON v. SILL, 49 U.S. 441 (1850) 49 U.S. 441 (How.)
THOMAS C. SHELDON AND ELEANOR SHELDON, HIS WIFE,  APPELLANTS, v. WILLIAM E. SILL, APPELLEE. January Term, 1850

"The assignment of the mortgage, without an assignment of the debt, is a nullity."

P-notes are negotiated in accordance with the Federal UCC, or the statutes in each state that have adopted the UCC. Mortgages are assigned and this is done via each states recording statutes.




MrRodgers -> RE: E-notes (10/3/2009 2:44:02 PM)

E-notes and the culture you write of shows the inherent venality of the capitalists. Turning paper into money, now converting it digital making it subject to new manipulations, lying through their teeth about the actual value of that paper and re-selling it.

In the cases of existing stocks and bonds...borrowing to speculate on that paper.

It's ALL called...capitalism.




SeekingAZ -> RE: E-notes (10/3/2009 4:18:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

E-notes and the culture you write of shows the inherent venality of the capitalists. Turning paper into money, now converting it digital making it subject to new manipulations, lying through their teeth about the actual value of that paper and re-selling it.

In the cases of existing stocks and bonds...borrowing to speculate on that paper.

It's ALL called...capitalism.



Man you can't have a real discussion anymore without some ummm "person" screaming "capitalism".

The original post is a real issue. It's also why if turned down by your lender for a realistic loan modification you should hire a lawyer who will force the lender to produce the original note. If they can't produce the original note they may be sufficiently motivated to give you a worthwhile loan modification (in return for curing their problem) as the possible consequences of not doing so is for a judge to rule their mortgage unenforceable.

But of course, you didn't add anything useful to the discussion you just reflexively barfed out "capitalist" like a 1930's German spat out "jew" or like Romans of a certain vintage spat out "Christian". If you don't like your personal circumstances you are free to try to improve them, at least for a while. Obama's soft tyranny hasn't turned hard just yet. Of course, he's well on his way because he has a significant number of people denouncing "capitalism" where capitalism is the economic system that results when people are *free* to chose who they want to do business with on whatever terms the two parties deem mutually beneficial. The hard part of creating any tyranny is convincing the population it would be good for them, Obama, is well on his way to success in that key goal.

When you denounce "capitalism" you're denouncing your own freedom and announce to those in power that you are ready and willing to be enslaved.

Normally, i wouldn't give a shit about your bad judgement since the end result of it (in a proper world) would be you just living a lower lifestyle than you would otherwise.

But of course most self-righteous liberals can't be satisfied with just living their own life their own way you collectively demand that your bad judgement be inflicted on the rest of us. And with the Democrats recent control of the house, senate, and white house along with their long term corruption of the judicial branch there is plenty to worry about. That is why over a *million* people showed up to the protest in Washington, none of which used tax payer dollars from ACORN or other brown shirt groups to pay their transportation costs. And you deride them as "tea baggers" for supporting their own freedom and in the process supporting yours (which you've already admitted you don't mind losing and therefore don't deserve anyway but there's no such thing as "freedom" for *some*).





UncleNasty -> RE: E-notes (10/3/2009 7:17:21 PM)

In almost all cases the original lender no longer holds or owns either note or mortgage. Because of that they cannot lawfully modify a loan. Having a lawyer won't make any difference. Well, not quite true. Having a lawyer will merely cost you money in order to be turned down for a loan modification.

As for being able to force anything in the process of attempting to negotiate a loan modification there is no leverage to force anything. If force is to be present in any way it will have to come in the form of a lawsuit and something like discovery or deposing a witness under oath. Which by the way is not a bad strategy - just sue them pre-emptively.

Loan Modifications have sprung up everywhere and this "rescue" has turned into just one more scam and victimization of home owners.

Uncle Nasty




SeekingAZ -> RE: E-notes (10/3/2009 7:44:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

In almost all cases the original lender no longer holds or owns either note or mortgage. Because of that they cannot lawfully modify a loan. Having a lawyer won't make any difference. Well, not quite true. Having a lawyer will merely cost you money in order to be turned down for a loan modification.

As for being able to force anything in the process of attempting to negotiate a loan modification there is no leverage to force anything. If force is to be present in any way it will have to come in the form of a lawsuit and something like discovery or deposing a witness under oath. Which by the way is not a bad strategy - just sue them pre-emptively.

Loan Modifications have sprung up everywhere and this "rescue" has turned into just one more scam and victimization of home owners.

Uncle Nasty



If they can't produce the note (in a court of law) I don't think they can legally foreclose or send the home to trustee sale either. The house may not be legally yours if you stop making payments at that point, but they are going to have a hell of a time evicting you. I have this impression because the first thing a lawyer around here does when contracted to help with a loan mod is demand the lender produce the original note. Whether the note is lost, incorrect or if they simply can't communicate or determine who has it, is somewhat irrelevant to the court, it's all bad for the lender. It sounds extreme and frankly a bit unfair to me but some of the lawyer websites make it sound like if they can't produce the correct note the entire mortgage is invalid, ie free house. Of course, we're probably talking thousands and thousands of dollars in legal fees to get there which i'm guessing some lawyers will do pro-bono at least once in order to generate a reputation of following through with lenders that don't play ball.

And yeah, to force the issue a lawsuit is required. Every large corporation does a cost benefit analysis of defending a lawsuit or settling out of court. If there's real risk of financial loss due to a potential adverse ruling they are going to try to settle (ie the leverage to pursue a beneficial loan mod in return for signing a new note and mortgage, which they won't hose up a 2nd time). I imagine if there's a half dozen parties claiming ownership of the note that the lawyer isn't going to have much fun negotiating.

And yeah, I understand the note holder has to approve of the loan modification. They have to approve short sales also. Short sales do happen so not being able to determine the note owner doesn't happen that often, it just eats tons of time doing so. They are also going to have to have themselves represented in any lawsuit.

And yes, there are a lot of scam loan mod companies. A lawyer does have a law license on the line so (as long as you check it's valid) it's unlikely a local lawyer is going to turn out to be a shyster (whether he has a clue is a different story). The lawyers around here are also asking for $3k upfront or so to get started so it discourages a lot of people in financial stress. The scam is someone sets up a website, receives calls, tells the person to send his documentation and a few hundred to get started. The shyster keeps the website up for a month than absconds with a boat load of money. There are far worse possibilities though.




thornhappy -> RE: E-notes (10/3/2009 8:48:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingAZ

...or other brown shirt groups to pay their transportation costs. And you deride them as "tea baggers" for supporting their own freedom and in the process supporting yours (which you've already admitted you don't mind losing and therefore don't deserve anyway but there's no such thing as "freedom" for *some*).


Yup.  No reflexive remarks here.  Nope.




SeekingAZ -> RE: E-notes (10/4/2009 1:23:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingAZ

...or other brown shirt groups to pay their transportation costs. And you deride them as "tea baggers" for supporting their own freedom and in the process supporting yours (which you've already admitted you don't mind losing and therefore don't deserve anyway but there's no such thing as "freedom" for *some*).


Yup.  No reflexive remarks here.  Nope.



There's nothing reflexive about it. Obama proudly spewed comments along the lines of "I want a civil defense force with as many personnel as the US army" the clued understood what that meant. ACORN is or was part of that plan (at least until multiple idiots they employ in their front offices were caught supporting prostitution, human trafficing, and child prostitution on tape). No worries though, I'm sure George Soros will fund some new front group to wear swastikas and to draw Hilter moustaches on images of Obama during Obama's opposition's protest rallies.




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