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When does it become criminal? - 8/29/2004 5:44:29 PM   
MaitresseEden


Posts: 477
Joined: 8/8/2004
From: Houston, Texas
Status: offline 		ok, After reading the entire thread on "breeder" slaves, and the tread about how online fun turns into rape. The question I would like to pose to all is:

At what point do things go from being consentual kink to being abusive, or criminal?

I was amazed that no on in the rape thread advised the person to contact the police, and file charges. Regardless of the circumstances, it was nonconsentual.

Secoundly, At what point does are individual right of free will and choice end, and the laws governing our freedoms begin? In the case of the breeder slave, I can see a myriad of laws being broken, regardless of consent. It is almost a cultish brainwashing beginning at childbirth in the case of those multipgenerational.

Finally, What responsibility do "We" as a community have to upholding the laws, and policeing ourselves. The old saying of " your kink is not necessarilly my kink" doesn't really apply in these cases as we would all be guilty, for failing to report a known criminal act.

Anyway.. Let keep in on a higher plane and discuss the ramifications of the questions.


In Peace,

Ms.Eden

_____________________________

"If I didnt define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other peoples fantasies for me and eaten alive. - Audre Lorde"
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RE: When does it become criminal? - 8/29/2004 6:28:07 PM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MaitresseEden

At what point do things go from being consentual kink to being abusive, or criminal?


As soon as consent is withdrawn. The thread regarding "online fun turning into real time rape" wasn't consentual according to the poster of that thread. Safewords were used, but not listened to. As soon as the safeword was issued, and he refused to stop what he was doing...it became a criminal act.

This gets tricky in Master/slave relationships. I don't use safewords with my slave, but we have been together for awhile. If at some point she decided, in the middle of a scene, to withdraw her consent and started screaming "RED"....she would definately get my attention. More than likely, I would check in and see what the hell was going on....but there is still the chance that I would tell her, "Damned right (WHACK) you're ass sure is red (WHACK)." and proceed with what I was doing. If she had tried to inform me that she was withdrawing her consent by using that safeword...and I didn't listen to her because we don't use safewords anymore...I've just committed a criminal act, regardless of what I thought was happening.

quote:



Secoundly, At what point does are individual right of free will and choice end, and the laws governing our freedoms begin? In the case of the breeder slave, I can see a myriad of laws being broken, regardless of consent. It is almost a cultish brainwashing beginning at childbirth in the case of those multipgenerational.


Hmmm...this is difficult too. I personally don't agree with the concept of breeder slaves. I feel it's irresponsible. That said, I won't have a breeder slave, but if someone else is doing it, and the children are not being neglected, abused or sold on the black market... then I believe they have the right to live that way. A slave still can withdraw their consent to be a breeder. Unless they withdraw that consent, its still her body, and just as with abortion, the government should keep their mitts off. (My opinion...I really don't want to debate abortion here...)

The multigenerational BDSM family has always squicked me to some degree or another, regardless if it has to do with breeding or not. When my child is an adult, I will discuss adult things with her. *There's a post regarding 24/7 and raising kids around here somewhere..."

quote:




Finally, What responsibility do "We" as a community have to upholding the laws, and policeing ourselves. The old saying of " your kink is not necessarilly my kink" doesn't really apply in these cases as we would all be guilty, for failing to report a known criminal act.


More shaky ground here. A lot of the things that we do can be considered illegal, depending on the state in which you live. Do we report each other for what we do consentually? No. As with most every rape case that is out there, you are going to need some pretty hard evidence to make it stick. If I heard "Red" called in a public dungeon and the dominant kept going. As DM, I'm breaking it up. But that's dungeon rules. Hard to tell when someone has truly withdrawn consent or is just caught up in the moment. If I knew, for a fact, and had evidence that a crmiinal act was performed, I wouldn't hesitate to call the police. That kind of information is hard to come by, unfortunately.


I'm interested in hearing more about this.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

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RE: When does it become criminal? - 8/29/2004 6:31:36 PM   
silvertongue


Posts: 10
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline 		breeder slaves...such a quaint perspective, somehow it reeks of someone trying to justify the ninconsensual slavery of someonelese, by the noble pursuit of procreation. It is a rather immature perspective, for what would one breed with a slave? More slaves? The result is such that the slaves always revolt, and take you down.

The question of "where does it become criminal" is a relatively simple one to answer. Whatever is criminal is the thing that will get you convixted in a court of law. We draw the line there because that is the only line there is. What is criminal to us is not the same criminal to them.

What if the cops busted a door down and found you and the wife naked, and her tied to the bed? Is that criminal? They would certainly think that there was a strong possiblility it was. The wife would have to explain, but even if it went to court, what exactly would they convict you of? I am not sure, but i do think that a husband and wife can skirt the courts in matters of privacy anyway. If they wana.

So its up to whoever thats getting whatever it is really. They would be the ultimate accuser. It is the responsiblility of the dom to know if their sub is aware of what is going on, and agreeining. Hey you can take it lightly, and not really know, and that will get you in the end.

You simply have to know. Oh...and criminals do know when they are braking the law, dont think that they dont. It is usualy the victims who do not know. So why continue in a relationship where neither know? That might be the most criminal of all.

Very simply put, the point it becomes criminal is never a msytery really. The trick is to know...for both to know. If the players in the scene are happy, that would seem to negate the criminal immeadiatley. It is when someone isnt happy wherein lies the scorn.

It is a vast topic, but there is a line that can not be crossed if things are to remain innocent, and it is not a mystery line, it is bold and well defined and when it is crossed, it is crossed by a criminal.

love,
Silvertongue
http://members.cox.net/silvertongue/
"There are two things I have learned in life, there is a God, and I am not Him."

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RE: When does it become criminal? - 8/29/2004 6:38:20 PM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		There really is no specific point.

In a recent case, a man enslaved (consentually) a person in Nebraska.

Unfortunately, after the "fun" wore off, the 'enslaved' was assisted out of captivity and the original man was arrested. - Thirty years for pressing the issue of non-consentuality by ignoring a withdrawn consent.

In a case in NYC (in recent years) a Columbia student took another student at her word and used her as she desired.

A few days later, she had "morning after remorse" and a relentless city prosecutor decided to 'make her bones' on it. It was overturned two years into the sentence on the basis that the rape laws (that would normally shield someone from their past when applied unfailry) when they make an allegation was completely absurd when applied in this instance, as the female in question had a history of kinky sex and frequented many of the fetish clubs - had many relationships of this nature, and simply was lieing through her teeth about her previous history.

It is all contingent on whether the local authorities are looking, there is a complaint made, and whether there is sufficient proof.

After all, in many instances we are breaking the law simply in the way we are having sex - roughly... and, if we deign to strike someone with a corporal instrument we are guilty of assault and battery (aggravated in some instances).

Abuse (on the other hand) is when someone decides they do not like what is being done. It is a subjective determinant that is (in and of itself) 'abused' to the extent where it means little and is invoked to damned often.

~J

< Message edited by LordODiscipline -- 8/29/2004 6:41:41 PM >

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RE: When does it become criminal? - 8/29/2004 7:27:53 PM   
ScorpioMaster


Posts: 146
Joined: 3/30/2004
Status: offline 		When does it become criminal? To answer your question in some state they got old laws on the books going back to 1800 they will use to bust you when you play. In Indiana it is against the law to tie some one up and it has been use to through some one in jail. So hard to do what you are suggestion and all we can do as a community is get the sub or slave out of the situation and let the law handle it. All we in the community is educate those in it what to look out for. Like being isolated and not part of the community for that is a way for them to abuse the sub/slave.

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RE: When does it become criminal? - 8/29/2004 10:37:41 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I think it was pretty clear that what happened in the case of "online fun turns to rape" was criminal. And there were people here who told her she should have pressed charges. She decided not to for reasons she explained. I think the reason for the post was to alert other women about what can happen when you ignore warning signs. To me it is much more useful to show how to keep something like this from happening than to tell someone to press charges after the fact. That would be up to them anyway.
I don't know what more we can do except share and discuss ideas and experiences.

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RE: When does it become criminal? - 8/30/2004 9:27:31 AM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline
quote:

At what point do things go from being consentual kink to being abusive, or criminal?

First, the disclaimer: my legal training comes from watching COPS. Local laws may vary.

There are plenty of times the cops get a call for a "domestic situation", maybe a neighbor hears a commotion next door. Police arrive on scene and find the woman with a bloody nose or other obvious signs of a beating, so they take the guy to jail for abuse. There is no issue of asking the woman to press charges because that's the way the law is written in some jurisdictions to prevent the women from declining out of fear or whatever.

In another thread a bit ago, I believe it was Leonidas who told the story of the neighbors calling the cops after hearing his slave scream. In this case the slave had no marks to show abuse (or consensual play in this case), so he didn't get to take a ride in the back of the police car.

Now, this is just start of a legal process; getting arrested doesn't mean you will actually be conviced of the crime. So I guess the moral of these stories is: if you're worried about neighbors calling the cops, muffle the screams with a gag.

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RE: When does it become criminal? - 8/30/2004 10:03:55 AM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		To me this is a simple answer. When I say no. When I say my safe word. You proceed. Whether I have marks on me or not. After I've said no, I can more than likely press charges and actually make them stick.
Now I'm sure that may not be the case everywhere, however the way the lifestyle is still looked upon. I'd be fairly sure I could get some to stick.

Also we all think differently of ourselves. Some like different things. So you sort of have to truly know who you are playing with as well. What might be abuse to me may not be to the person standing next to me.

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RE: When does it become criminal? - 8/30/2004 10:25:21 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline 		This is a controversial situation...
I am big on one using common sense, making right choices, or learning to live with consequences of bad choices... What happened definitely should not have; but ladies and gentleman, let us not go out and meet someone with whom we've talked about leud and lascivious (allbeit fun acts), feel the creeps upon meeting them because he/she is a creep, than proceed to voluntarilly follow him/her to a private place to do ????????????????

I have a real problem with anyone who calls someone else at a hotel room at 2am, comes over to visit in said hotel, than calls cops on rape.

M

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RE: When does it become criminal? - 8/30/2004 11:46:44 AM   
NoCalOwner


Posts: 241
Status: offline 		I think there are two very different issues here -- legality and ethics. An ex of an ex of mine spent around a year in an Alaskan prison for tying up his gf and roughing her up a bit, even though it was completely consensual. In most jurisdictions you could not be convicted of battery for giving someone a whipping which they wanted, but you might still have committed assault in the process. Some crimes are against persons, others are basically against "the King's peace" and may be prosecuted without any victim's desire or consent. So I agree that the answer to this question is best left to your local lawyers, because there is no guarantee that the law will follow either ethics or logic.

As for right and wrong, I would agree that consent is, for me, a huge dividing line, but also a very fuzzy one. An intelligent, well-informed and perfectly sane person's uncoerced consent clears up almost all ethical issues in my book. But how many people can claim to be all that? If we toss out the naive youngsters, the old and vulnerable, the unconscious, the intoxicated, the neurotic (or beyond), the misinformed/brainwashed, the manic and/or depressed, the ignorant and the easily coerced, what proportion of humanity do we have left? Not one whole hell of a lot. There will always be people will happily exploit weaknesses in the makeup of others to use them and abuse them. And, unless an adult is *obviously* mentally disabled, the law is not at all likely to protect them, either in the US or elsewhere.

Stinks, huh?

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RE: When does it become criminal? - 8/30/2004 4:15:24 PM   
smile2cu


Posts: 265
Joined: 7/21/2004
From: Dayton, OH
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MaitresseEden
At what point do things go from being consentual kink to being abusive, or criminal?

quote:

ORIGINAL: iwillserveu
How does a second generation slave give their consent?

I'm very much agree with Ms.Eden. Since this involves a baby, there's no way it can be considered consentual. And there certainly are laws being broken here.

I usually say I like everything. I think I'll have to watch my mouth.
I really hate to knock anybody or anything, but I think this is beyond the pale.

And Peace to You,
~smile~

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RE: When does it become criminal? - 9/22/2004 6:24:51 PM   
knees2you


Posts: 2336
Joined: 3/15/2004
Status: offline 		People can be decieving. Very onething,
but totally another.

I saw a special where this older Guy was sweet talking eccentric ladies
out of millions of dollars.

So it can happen in Bdsm also.

Sincerely, eyesofAslave




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