ShadeDiva
Posts: 1005
Joined: 3/31/2004
From: Sacramento, California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wyldchyld2
sex to me is intimate sharing... having my legs spread open, being blindfolded and tied down, and then submitting to Someone's will is, well, IS intimate in my mind...... and because orgasm is involved, welllll THAT to me sort of kind of probably maybe is sex... that is something i just don't see me casually sharing with just Anyone.... (another thread, i know!!)
I think that the good thing here is that you know YOUR definition. That is an excellent place to start. I think it's also important that you know exactly how and when intimate turns into a sexual thing for you. For both yourself and also for how your partner as well as for how and when your partner interacts with another.
For me, intimate is NOT the same thing as sex or sexual. There is a point when that line blurs from one into the other, however. For me there is a possibility that one can be intimate with someone and not SEXUALLY intimate.
Spreading ones legs is something that I'd agree is an intimate thing. I would not consider it across the board as being sexually intimate though. That would largely depend on both parties POVs on the situation and the actions being done and the motivations, objectives, and goals of both parties.
For example, say Ray is playing with another submissive that is female. She has her legs open, and he is applying clothespins, or sewing her, or needle play, etc. The goal and motivation is not to get her off - and though the position is intimate in nature, I would not subscribe a sexual element to that unless one or the other person started applying that tone to things and began to react to it. I wouldn't feel a line was crossed on either end until such a tone came into the play - and if only one was having that - I would then subscribe that line crossing to that individual only.
Then again neither Ray or I scene with orgasms being a goal or desired effect. I do notice that seems to be again another not so common thing. Most of the people we know seem to feel they are doing a good scene or have had a successful scene when the submissive orgasms or can't stop orgasming.
(Personal note: I know a dominant that is a VERY nice guy, he'd probably top me very well in pure sadistic values alone. However his main objective and goal is to get those he dominates and tops to orgasm through his scene, that is what he enjoys and what he finds a validation of his skill as a dominant and I think he kinda feels that the orgasm is them finally submitting - something I don't agree with. Submission [or bottoming] for me has NOTHING to do with sex or orgasms at all. So obviously this is simply NOT compatable with me. I would NOT feel comfortable having a top actively trying to get that reaction from me [especially if they view the orgasm as a sign of the person submitting and all I do is bottom with others anyway as a default] and it would piss me off as well as make me REALLY uncomfortable. He is not less or bad for wanting that from his scenes, just different and it just doesn't mesh with what I will like or what I'd want in a scene. Which is sorta sad - he does have a very nice sadistic edge that he obviously really digs on but I'd never go there due to his orientation and objectives. )
Back on topic- a sexual result, release or reaction is not what we are trying to accomplish and not something we want to engage in - though obviously some stimulation might have that result. Say for example when I'm fisting a lady. I'm not trying to bring her to orgasm, and I know that is usually what 99% of the BDSM populace views is it's main goal when deciding to fist, but that is not *my* objective, or my goal, or my motivation. I do realize however that is a likely result of doing such play, and I would not assign it a sexual interaction from both parties, even if it has a sexual result - unless that was what it started out with or what it turned into.
If I had issues with a possibility of a sexual result, I would not engage in that act. Shades of Clinton? I'm sure many will assume that or feel that is the case. But I also notice that I have an ability in regard to my sexuality and sexual reactions that seems to be kind of weird to most humans, in that I can and do separate my sexuality and sexual behavior unless I choose to do otherwise.
I seem to be weird in that way as most folks seem to view it as either impossible to do, undesirable to do, or that I'm in denial or lying. *smile* I understand that mentality, for it is usually hard for folks to relate to something (or even believe it is possible) if they can't do it or imagine doing it themselves. However I am one of those that is pretty much really in control of my hormones and sexual behavior, I've never been able to get so lost in the moment that I couldn't make a choice about reacting or not or doing something or not. That does not seem to be the norm.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wyldchyld2
so now, it's been brought to my attention while recently discussing toys in His toybag, that others He scenes with will not use my insertables..... ok.... so my breath stops flowing, my eyebrows go up, my eyes almost pop out of my head, my brain starts spinning, and smoke begins to spew from my brain.... total total confusion reigns! lol
I can understand that if your definition for intimate directly if not entirely co-mingles with sex for you why you might have that reaction. This is where I notice most folks stop checking for compatibility. Your definitions should match his, or if they don't for this to work and be positive, each must understand how the other views it and either make decisions based to support and respect those differences, or come to some sort of an understanding between both parties in relation to any possible third parties especially.
That being said, however, I am one that would not view an insertable as an sexual act - unless that is again, the goal, motivation, and objective. I don't view butt plugs as a default sexual thing. I just don't. I don't view fisting either the ass or the vagina as a default sexual thing. Vibes I suppose I would since their very nature and existence is meant for sexual gratification - though I would say that it is indeed possible to use them in a non-sexual way - if both people have the same mindset about sex and what constitutes as being a sexual interaction between them.
I will also say that it is my experience that most humans don't put that much thought into their sexual triggers outside of developing and honing them to get them off better and more intensely or in how they can use them to further or generate their sexual excitement. But that is not to say that one can't do otherwise, just most folks see no reason to or can't think of why or just plain do not wish to, so it is just not something that seems plausible to most I've spoken to.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wyldchyld2
new conversation with Him (bless His heart!) .... excuse me, Sir, but i was under the impression sex would not be involved??? .... His reply.... well it won't be, it's just "finishing" her off if that's what is agreed upon before the scene begins.... HE won't be sharing of Himself or be brought to orgasm, but will not have a problem bringing someone else because of the power and control......
See this is where I'd say I feel that his motivation, goal and objective seem to be sexual in nature. "Finishing someone off" or agreeing to do this or entering a scene with that intent strikes me as being sexual in nature. Semantics? Possibly, but really we are usually creatures of gray and not creatures of black and white and in the world of shades of gray semantics mean *everything* as it is all in the details or nuances. Unless for you it IS black and white and then from your perspective, semantics mean little, if anything at all.
There IS such a thing as a one-way sexual scene. I HAVE done those. It is rare for me though as it usually complicates things in that the person starts seeing you as a sexual being when you do not reciprocate that vision of them in return. Such situations can quickly sour.
For me I see a difference between recognizing a scene might have a sexual result, like in me vaginally fisting a female. In that situation I would discuss that possibility and tell them it is not something I am striving for (unless I am and in that case I'd be mixing sex and BDSM in that scene) and that while I know it might happen, I will likely not try to bring her along in that fashion. Meaning that if I notice she is starting to orgasm, I'm not going to help her along by playing with the clit or changing my rhythm, or talking dirty or anything to facilitate that orgasm or to create more. Unless of course that is what my goal is in which case that goal and objective would be discussed prior.
Chances are I'd just back off, let it follow whatever course it is doing, change what *I'm* doing while allowing that to subside or carry on, and then resume after that moment has passed. *smile* Which is very fun and quite sadistic to the poor person I'm playing with that is having that reaction. If they find that sexually pleasurable of a situation to be in they are welcome to masturbate to the memory on their own time under their own steam, LOL.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wyldchyld2
i have come to trust Him (it's taken a while because time tells all, i know) and i know His word is good.... so my question isn't about His and my sceneing or trust... this is truly just a curiosity of semantics!
I think it is a good question and one that you two should REALLY tear apart and openly and honestly examine the core root of. It is indeed a question of semantics if you are someone that sees scenes and BDSM in shades of gray when it comes to calling it sexual or not.
quote:
ORIGINAL:
i know i should have been drinking coffee instead of typing!! :) so my question is:
what constitutes sex?
thank Y/you for Y/your replies! interesting to pick Y/your thoughts!
As you have seen already - you've gotten a range of responses and points of view. Some are objective and wide and some are more orientating on only how they see things. None are wrong or less or more than any others though and they are all valid and have merit. But now is the time for you to reach deeply inside yourself and discover where YOUR personal truth is and then to honor that in your decisions, and in your choices with people that you decide to play with or choose to be with.
In other words - to thine own self, be true.
As an aside - I do find this one of the more fascinating parts of an individual's journey of self-knowledge and self-awareness.
Good luck!
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~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
theFetishForums
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RE: what constitutes sex? - 
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if i am masterbating... i'm releasing a lot of tension, but having sex? no... cuz it's just me and BOB...
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