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We pay NASA to do this? - 10/8/2009 4:45:35 PM

AlwaysLisa

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Is it just me...or does anyone else think crashing a vehicle into the moon is a bad idea?

We are so closely tied into the moons orbit, why are we meddling with the possibility of screwing things up even further on this planet?

Lisa

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RE: We pay NASA to do this? - 10/8/2009 4:58:05 PM

sappatoti

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the relatively small size and mass of the vehicle is so tiny as to the overall mass of the moon it will not make a major impact on the moon's orbit

the moon has been hit many times in its past by all sorts of space debris that make our test vehicle crash look like spitball and yet the orbit of the moon has not decayed

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RE: We pay NASA to do this? - 10/8/2009 5:01:53 PM

Muttling

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This thing hitting the moon is 1000x's (probably more) less than the bug hitting the windshield on your car. The moon's orbit will be no more changed than the speed of your car when a bug hits the windshield.

That said, where do you think the moon got all those BIG craters from? It wasn't from bugs or small satellites. Despite the craters, it is still in earth orbit and still serving us like a good Slave.

< Message edited by Muttling -- 10/8/2009 5:03:29 PM >

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RE: We pay NASA to do this? - 10/8/2009 5:05:31 PM

MasterHermes

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And if they ever screw things up, we have got SG-1 to save the day right?

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RE: We pay NASA to do this? - 10/8/2009 9:47:14 PM

Termyn8or

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Even if something had a major impact enough to make the moon go away the effects on Earth would not be so catastrophic. There would be no tides, that's about it. Of course that would hurt sea life which would hurt us, but people have some misconceptions about the theory of orbit. The foremost of which is that the mass of the orbiting object matters. It does not at all.

Without that important fact, a logical mind might go so far as to reason that the Earth and moon are an orbiting mass, and the lack of mass would send us shooting out into space. While it is true that the Earthe and moon are a single mass because they share a single orbital path, remember there are only a few things that matter to achieve a stable orbit.

The mass of the object being orbited (i.e. the sun) which renders it's G force, which we may express as the G force of the Earth being one, but that is a subjective measurement. It can be expressed many ways, and in fact can be expressed simply as mass if the formula is written properly.

The distance of the orbiting object to the one being orbited.

The orbital speed.

The last two render at what point the G force from the orbited object exactly counteracts the centripital force caused by the circular path taken by the orbiting object.

So it does not matter if half the Earth is blown off, as long as what is left stays in place and keeps going around at the same speed, it will orbit.

Simple satellite TV proves the point. The transmitters are about 23,000 miles from the Earth and their orbital speed is locked to the equator. They do not weigh all the same. One may be ten times the mass of another, but as long as they stay put they will still be there, along with some of the junk up there I might add. In this case the orbital speed matches the rotational speed of the Earth, but that is not true of the Earth vs the sun. If you look at the planets in the solar system, the farther out they are, the slower they go.

That is not to say there would be no impact on our environment though. The lack of tides would not be a good thing for aquatic life. Additionally, a buddy of mine used to grow these ummm plants, for medicinal purposes only of course. To get them to "bloom" fully there was a time when the artificial lights were on at night. This would no doubt simulate moonlight. Therefore since that process worked it would be logical to assume that there would be some impact on ground based flora as well. Which is grown outside at least. Most of our food and feed is grown outside. In fact there are species of plants that only open their flowers in the moonlight. I guess they would go extinct.

There is no doubt there would be an impact on many living things, but just how profound they would be is hard to say. Even harder to predict is the specifics.

Of course how many people have to starve to death or lack money for a doctor has an impact as well, so they can afford to do such things. So I basically agree that they should not do it, but who am I to say ?

T

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RE: We pay NASA to do this? - 10/8/2009 10:48:29 PM

Lockit

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Why do I keep seeing the broken up sun in the movie Time Machine? lol

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RE: We pay NASA to do this? - 10/8/2009 10:58:34 PM

cosmicowgurl

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Nothing to worry about in striking the moon with such a small probe, in fact it would be like shooting a marshmallow at freight train so other than minor seismic activity there will be nothing worth noting actually.
One other thing concerning the Moon’s orbit is that it’s in a reverse retrograde obit and moving away from the earth about 3 feet per year so it isn’t going anywhere anytime soon and this mission will have absolutely no effect on it’s orbit, it’s been hit by far bigger and faster moving objects in it’s history.
However having said all this the science this will provide will in fact tell us if long duration exploration to the Moon is practical or even possible at this time or not. Should the high levels hydrogen be verified then astronauts will have access to air, water and fuel thus making extended trips possible and the next logical step to our eventual exploration of Mars. But this is just my two cents worth. LOL!

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RE: We pay NASA to do this? - 10/9/2009 4:35:10 AM

AlwaysLisa

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Morning...

I should have clarified....it's not the impact that had me questioning NASA and it's plan of action.   The size ratio is indeed obvious...but rather, why?   We don't know what will follow this explosion, why take a chance?   Is this a God complex, to have a need to poke and prod what we don't understand?   For billions of years, the moon has been doing it's thing..why do we feel the need to "possibly" make changes, going in blind without knowing the full consequence?

Who is to say by releasing water from the moon, if we do manage what they hope, we won't alter the surface? Who knows what that will trigger. No one.   We have this desire to change and create...sometimes with negative results.

I don't think by us blowing a hole in the moon that the tides will cease immediately, but no one can predict the long term affect.   When they started testing Atom bombs, they had no idea if the atmosphere would set off chain reactions, they feared it might, but went ahead with the testing anyway.   I guess we should all be thankful they were wrong.

Point being, why?

Lisa

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RE: We pay NASA to do this? - 10/9/2009 5:19:59 AM

thishereboi

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According to the article.....It is hoped that the readings taken will confirm the presence of enough water necessary to supply future visits by astronauts.

and.....Discovering a potential water supply has obvious benefits for that scheme, not least providing astronauts with a potential reservoir that they can tap into rather than rely on shipments from Earth.

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RE: We pay NASA to do this? - 10/9/2009 5:52:56 AM

AlwaysLisa

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quote:

According to the article.....It is hoped that the readings taken will confirm the presence of enough water necessary to supply future visits by astronauts.

and.....Discovering a potential water supply has obvious benefits for that scheme, not least providing astronauts with a potential reservoir that they can tap into rather than rely on shipments from Earth.

This doesn't change the fact that we don't know everything.   The effects of our blasting may not be obvious for awhile, but one thing is certain, we can't predict the outcome.   I think it's lovely that the decision makers have gone ahead with something without knowing the after effects.

Sort of like when they tested the first bomb and crossed fingers. Do we then all shout "oopsie" if it goes awry and millions are impacted? Is water on the moon that important?   If people are going to be used as part of a scientific experiment, shouldn't they at least be aware?

It's not like there hasn't been "oopsie's" in the past or anything.

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RE: We pay NASA to do this? - 10/9/2009 5:57:47 AM

sappatoti

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Nothing you use in your everyday life came about because the answers were already known. Nothing. Not the clothes you wear, not the electronic devices you use, not the gasoline you use to power your car. Nothing.

Experimentation of all kinds carries risks. The only way to know things is to keep trying and learn from the mistakes. If there are no mistakes, how would we learn? Individually, we could learn from the mistakes of others, who would learn from yet another series of mistakes, and so on and so forth. But collectively, as one whole of humankind, how did our collective core body of knowledge come to be?

It was experimentation. Trial and error. That's how humans learn and to apply what they learn to make our lives a little bit better as a whole.

< Message edited by sappatoti -- 10/9/2009 5:59:03 AM >

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RE: We pay NASA to do this? - 10/9/2009 6:10:51 AM

Louve00

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Well, for anyone who watched it this morning, it wasn't exactly what I expected. It definately didn't/won't impact the earth, because it barely impacted the moon! lol And the camera trailing behind it taking samples and data didn't even pick up (or show to my eye) any debris at all. No particle, no dust, no water crystals...nothing. Yet, I did see the folks in NASA clapping their hands and looking approvingly a short bit after it all happened.

So, who knows what they'll learn after that. My guess though is we have alot to learn about space, outer space, and even our moon. We were expecting a huge plume and you couldn't even detect a blip on the screen.

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RE: We pay NASA to do this? - 10/9/2009 6:41:31 AM

chiaThePet

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This just in.

Rocket hits Moon.

Moon knocked off axis.

Moon shaking wildly.

Moon on collision course with Oslo Norway.

Interesting.

chia* (the pet)

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RE: We pay NASA to do this? - 10/9/2009 6:58:26 AM

Marc2b

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It is a good thing that the impact didn't blast the Moon away from us because the Moon leaving us would lead to crappy acting, lousy special effects and stupid story lines.

Seriously, water on the Moon would be a good thing because it would make establishing a permanent colony (which could be a stepping stone to Mars) a lot cheaper and easier.

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RE: We pay NASA to do this? - 10/9/2009 7:25:19 AM

Muttling

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa

quote:

According to the article.....It is hoped that the readings taken will confirm the presence of enough water necessary to supply future visits by astronauts.

and.....Discovering a potential water supply has obvious benefits for that scheme, not least providing astronauts with a potential reservoir that they can tap into rather than rely on shipments from Earth.

This doesn't change the fact that we don't know everything. The effects of our blasting may not be obvious for awhile, but one thing is certain, we can't predict the outcome. I think it's lovely that the decision makers have gone ahead with something without knowing the after effects.

We know exactly what will happen when it impacts the moon. We've been observing astroids hit planets for decades and calculating the changes you suggest is exactly what the subject of physics is all about.

What we don't know is what is in the dust that it will kick up and we've made a number of discoveries in the past by observing such dust clouds.

As mentioned above, a source of water on the moon would be a huge discovery as it will be extremely difficult to colonize the moon without a water source. Launch costs today are around $10,000 per pound of payload delivered to the moon. That's over $80,000 to get 1 gallon of water to the moon.

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RE: We pay NASA to do this? - 10/9/2009 8:07:43 AM

Termyn8or

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Hmmm, the lack of potable water has been noticed in areas of famine in the world. I have an idea, let's send it to the moon !

And how's come none of these asteroids have ever brought up any water ? Oh wait, maybe they did but it all evaporated because there is no atmosphere. In a vacuum our beloved H2O is almost always either water vapor or ice. This is why freeze drying works.

So they are looking for what now ?

T

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RE: We pay NASA to do this? - 10/9/2009 8:21:18 AM

Muttling

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Hmmm, the lack of potable water has been noticed in areas of famine in the world. I have an idea, let's send it to the moon !

And how's come none of these asteroids have ever brought up any water ? Oh wait, maybe they did but it all evaporated because there is no atmosphere. In a vacuum our beloved H2O is almost always either water vapor or ice. This is why freeze drying works.

So they are looking for what now ?

T

We've only had the technology to analyze dust clouds for a couple of decades and the moon hasn't taken any recent hits that we were in a position to analyze. A couple of other planets as well as their moons have and we did the Deep Impact mission a few years ago where we hit a comet with a probe.

They are hoping the water is in the soil and in the form of ice.

For those keeping up with the news, the probe hit the moon a few hours ago.

< Message edited by Muttling -- 10/9/2009 8:24:24 AM >

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RE: We pay NASA to do this? - 10/9/2009 8:27:44 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

We don't know what will follow this explosion, why take a chance?

This is a silly game.

What if a secret civilization of earthlings long sealed off are rescued, this film of water condensation from their activities underground, and their rescue the key to a new age of peace, prosperity, freedom from disease, spiritual understanding...

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RE: We pay NASA to do this? - 10/9/2009 9:21:18 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

So, who knows what they'll learn after that. My guess though is we have alot to learn about space, outer space, and even our moon. We were expecting a huge plume and you couldn't even detect a blip on the screen.

My initial guess is that it depends on exactly what it hit, which was something which they probably could neither predict or control with any degree of precision. Without reading the latest update, I'm guessing they were hoping it hit a dusty area, but perhaps hit a rocky patch instead. Win some, lose some.

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RE: We pay NASA to do this? - 10/9/2009 9:27:01 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa

I don't think by us blowing a hole in the moon that the tides will cease immediately, but no one can predict the long term affect.

Sure they can. They can predict with complete and absolute accuracy that there will be no longterm effects, period. It's simple high-school level physics. An object with the mass of that probe can not possibly have any effect on a planetary object the size of the moon. There's no question about this at all. Worry about it all you like, but there's no basis for your worry.

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