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Tony Arambula, protecting home shot by police - 10/8/2009 7:24:11 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		I am not sure how I missed this story last year.
I heard about this case in great detail this evening on the news.
 
Tony Arambula is a homeowner who was holding an intruder at gunpoint last year, after
the intruder invaded his home.
Tony and his wife BOTH, called the police to report the home invasion.
 
Tony's wife stated she informed the police several times, that her husband had a gun and was holding the intruder at gunpoint {BEFORE they entered the room with the intruder and her husband}.
The police dragged Tony's bullet ridden body past his wife and horrified children, after
he was shot.
Tony was shot in the back first, and then shot another 5 times but managed to survive.
Tony now has a lawsuit against the police department for 5.75 million dollars.
 
THIS, is the sort of story that scares many of us.
In a really hectic situation, the person with the firearm DEFENDING himself, his family or his property, is at risk of being shot by the police.

Homeowner Shot by Police While Holding Intruder at Gunpoint Files Lawsuit Against Phoenix; Claims Cops Tried to Cover Up Mist...

This situation is another reason, many of us are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 10/8/2009 7:29:31 PM >

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RE: Tony Arambula, protecting home shot by police - 10/8/2009 10:04:10 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Well Mz, that reinforces one of the first rules I was taught about firearms. Make it the last thing a person sees. You do not hold someone at bay, you do not brandish or threaten. If you pull it, USE IT, and use it RIGHT NOW.

This may not be what those who taught me envisioned, but it is true. The intruder should've already been dead. He took the risk, and he should've paid the pot right then and there. The intruder sometimes has nothing to lose and will take a very high risk to get otu of the situation, and I know people who despite age or overweightness can get across a room so fast they could take that gun away from you and shove it down your throat. So I will just add this to the proof that my teachings are still correct.

And always shoot to kill, and never shoot in the back. I guess only the cops can do that. My attitude is if you took the gamble breaking into my house, you were ready for it, and as such you will not hear anything (I have a revolver). You lost and you pay the pot right now. There is no credit. There are no fronts, all ins or anything of the sort. You die.

You want to take what I worked for, possible life or Wife ? You lose buddy. You should've been taught better by your Mommy. Too bad for her. And I mean that, just how I mean it is in the eye of the beholder, I mean it all ways. If you would've won, you get a bunch of cool stuff, tools, computers, other equipment and even some money if you take the time to look for it. But you lost. Try again, oops, you can't can you. That's OK, because you can't try again in someone else's house. Case closed.

T

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RE: Tony Arambula, protecting home shot by police - 10/8/2009 10:13:52 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


And always shoot to kill, and never shoot in the back. I guess only the cops can do that. My attitude is if you took the gamble breaking into my house, you were ready for it, and as such you will not hear anything (I have a revolver). You lost and you pay the pot right now. There is no credit. There are no fronts, all ins or anything of the sort. You die.


Actually, in some states, you can shoot him in the back. And if i had a wife and kids somewhere in the house, I definitely would. No way in hell am i going to  risk that dickhead getting away from me and endangering my family in  some other part of the house. If he brings a gun into my house, and he's in my sights, he's dead. Now. Period. The people I love come first, and he just picked the wrong house. By the time the police get there, there's no need for me to have a gun in my hand anymore, because the fight's long over.


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RE: Tony Arambula, protecting home shot by police - 10/9/2009 5:00:57 AM   
Anarrus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Well Mz, that reinforces one of the first rules I was taught about firearms. Make it the last thing a person sees. You do not hold someone at bay, you do not brandish or threaten. If you pull it, USE IT, and use it RIGHT NOW.

T


I agree. The intruder should have been ready for a body bag and an easy trip to the morgue once the police arrived.
Somehow Tony's case seems to fall under the "no good deed goes unpunished" category. He acted with restraint and temperance then suffered the unjust and convoluted results.

< Message edited by Anarrus -- 10/9/2009 5:50:52 AM >

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RE: Tony Arambula, protecting home shot by police - 10/9/2009 7:40:20 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Convoluted ? I think we need a stronger word for the situation. Of course this will go in the bin with the other handgun injuries/deaths this year.

The fact of the matter is they do not want anyone to be able to defend themselves, even though they do not take the responsibility to do so. This justifies more spending by the "justice" system. The more criminals at large, the better off "they" are.

Surprisingly few people can see that.

T

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RE: Tony Arambula, protecting home shot by police - 10/9/2009 8:24:14 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


Posts: 3506
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From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		Obviously a result of police officers being expected to recognise who owns each house in the street. The wife is outside and says her husband has a gun pointed at an intruder but she is outside so doesn't actually know what has occurred since she left the room with the two men and who now has the gun aimed on who. The police then have to walk into a room not knowing one man from the other and take a gamble as to who is the home owner? The mistake they made was not asking the woman for a description of her husband. Now perhaps ask yourself what if you lived alone and the same occurred who would be able to say which person was the homeowner?

People assume the police will know who the home owner is when they arrive at the scene. Why do they assume this and are happy to hold someone at gunpoint awaiting telepathic gun wielding police?


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RE: Tony Arambula, protecting home shot by police - 10/9/2009 8:44:25 AM   
housesub4you


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You get one shot, make it to kill, cause if you don't the asshole crooks lawyer will be suing you for support for his client for the rest of his life.  It has happened way to many times in this state. 

More then 1 shot and you answer for manslaughter charges, chances are good they will not convict, but think of the hell you will be going through for defending your family and home.  The crook, well it is the chance they took and they lost





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RE: Tony Arambula, protecting home shot by police - 10/9/2009 9:57:48 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

More then 1 shot and you answer for manslaughter charges, chances are good they will not convict, but think of the hell you will be going through for defending your family and home.

Oddly enough, I've heard just the opposite. Namely, that if you ever have to shoot someone make sure you empty the clip into him. Not just to make sure that he's dead and can't testify creatively or sue, but to add legitimacy to your defense that you feared for your life. Because a clean head shot especially, or even a nice professional center-of-mass double tap, can get you a felony charge for deliberately executing him. Dunno.

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/9/2009 10:02:22 AM >

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RE: Tony Arambula, protecting home shot by police - 10/9/2009 10:09:11 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


Posts: 3506
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		Shouldn't you also shoot a few family members to highlight the franticness of your dire situation and demonstrate the true blind fear whist aiming and firing the gun? At the very least you should also shoot your pet dog.

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RE: Tony Arambula, protecting home shot by police - 10/9/2009 10:12:53 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

Shouldn't you also shoot a few family members to highlight the franticness of your dire situation and demonstrate the true blind fear whist aiming and firing the gun? At the very least you should also shoot your pet dog.

Well fuck, I hope that's not too important. I live alone with a cat.

K.

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RE: Tony Arambula, protecting home shot by police - 10/9/2009 1:41:26 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

Shouldn't you also shoot a few family members to highlight the franticness of your dire situation and demonstrate the true blind fear whist aiming and firing the gun? At the very least you should also shoot your pet dog.


I would vote "no," but that's just me.

Personally, if I'm in a position where I'm going to shoot someone (and god forbid that would ever happen), the legal consequences are going to be the absolute furthest thing from my mind. The only thing I'm going to be considering is whether I (or someone I love) is in immediate danger of being murdered. If the answer to that is "no," then I'm not  shooting. If the answer is "yes," then why would I possibly care how much trouble I might get into afterward? There is nothing more precious in this world than love, and nobody more precious to me than the people I love. If someone i love is in danger of being murdered, there is no personal risk I wouldn't take to save them. I'm not going to take the risk of letting someone I love be killed just because I'm afraid I might go to jail if I act to save them.


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RE: Tony Arambula, protecting home shot by police - 10/9/2009 2:18:07 PM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
Status: offline 		~FR~

I have a question, and I ask it with all good intent. When discussing using a gun against a burglar, the conversation is usually framed in terms of protecting one's own life and the life of one's family. But I wonder, and I ask the gun owners:

If you're upstairs, the burlar is downstairs and is heading out, would you confront him/shoot him to save your TV, your silver, your dvd player, or any of your other material stuff?

This isn't so much a question of "right", as I believe that when someone breaks into your home, you have the right to do pretty much what you choose to them in regards to keeping them from carrying out thefts and such. This is more a matter of what people can live with. So individually, I ask whether those with guns (since you have the means to shoot them at hand while the unarmed don't) would rather have their stuff stolen or shoot someone to keep it.

I don't know if there's a right or wrong answer...but I am curious.



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RE: Tony Arambula, protecting home shot by police - 10/9/2009 2:49:38 PM   
Anarrus


Posts: 475
Joined: 11/8/2005
Status: offline 		Good question Spinner. Anything short of the perp leading my black lab out and I might let him live. But that's why I have a rock salt load in the left barrel and rifled slug in the right barrel of  my 12 gauge dbl.
Stuff's important, but not that important in the bigger picture.  My dog is family though.

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RE: Tony Arambula, protecting home shot by police - 10/9/2009 3:00:12 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

~FR~

I have a question, and I ask it with all good intent. When discussing using a gun against a burglar, the conversation is usually framed in terms of protecting one's own life and the life of one's family. But I wonder, and I ask the gun owners:

If you're upstairs, the burlar is downstairs and is heading out, would you confront him/shoot him to save your TV, your silver, your dvd player, or any of your other material stuff?


If it's just me in the house, then no.

If I have loved ones in the house, I don't know. There's not enough information to answer. How do I know he's not coming back in? How do I know he's the only one in the house, that he doesn't have a couple of armed partners somewhere in the house that he may come back in to support if I wind up shooting at them? And most importantly, where are my loved ones in relation to him and his possible partners? Do I know? Way too many variables.

But if the known parameters are simply that he and I are both alone, and he is on his way out, then good lord no. I've got insurance for that other crap. Lives are the only thing that can't be replaced, and the only things I would ever kill to defend.



quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales
This isn't so much a question of "right", as I believe that when someone breaks into your home, you have the right to do pretty much what you choose to them in regards to keeping them from carrying out thefts and such.


That depends on the jurisdiction. In some states, you could shoot someone in that circumstance and probably not be prosecuted, but you would almost certainly be sued for wrongful death. With a good chance of losing everything you own. But in other states, you still have what's called a "duty to retreat" - in other words, you're obliged to try to retreat from an intruder before falling back on the last resort of killing him in self-defense.



quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales
This is more a matter of what people can live with. So individually, I ask whether those with guns (since you have the means to shoot them at hand while the unarmed don't) would rather have their stuff stolen or shoot someone to keep it.


Living an entire lifetime with the knowledge that I killed another human being for no good reason would be far more expensive than any DVD player. Some people have the grandiose illusion that they'd feel like some sort of hero, a courageous warrior tried and tested in mortal combat, but I have way too many friends who are police officers to not know better than that. As one friend, a retired sheriff's deputy, put it, "The day you actually point a weapon at someone, you come home thinking it was the worst day of your life. Then the day comes when you actually pull the trigger, and you realize what 'worst' really is." I believe that only a psychopath could kill another human being without being deeply affected by it.


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RE: Tony Arambula, protecting home shot by police - 10/9/2009 4:54:24 PM   
einstien5201


Posts: 63
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Status: offline 		"Duty to retreat" is one the stupidest standards I have ever heard. I pray that I will never be in that situation, but if someone comes into my house uninvited, they must deal with the consequences. Those consequences may be loss of life or limb. The artificial lessening of risk caused by laws like this only increase crime. Even criminals process risk/reward ratios before deciding who/what/when to commit crimes, and increasing the risk of death can only tilt that ratio against them.

Personally, I prefer large impact weapons such as baseball bats. More satisfying to feel the impact, and less chance of a child accidentally killing themselves. Granted, it helps that I'm larger than a good majority of people. My wife wouldn't dream of taking on a thief with a baseball bat, but she's just a hair over 5'4".

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RE: Tony Arambula, protecting home shot by police - 10/9/2009 5:51:01 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: einstien5201

"Duty to retreat" is one the stupidest standards I have ever heard. I pray that I will never be in that situation, but if someone comes into my house uninvited, they must deal with the consequences.


You as well.


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RE: Tony Arambula, protecting home shot by police - 10/9/2009 10:24:27 PM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


Posts: 1160
Joined: 11/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales
I have a question, and I ask it with all good intent. When discussing using a gun against a burglar, the conversation is usually framed in terms of protecting one's own life and the life of one's family. But I wonder, and I ask the gun owners:

If you're upstairs, the burlar is downstairs and is heading out, would you confront him/shoot him to save your TV, your silver, your dvd player, or any of your other material stuff?

This isn't so much a question of "right", as I believe that when someone breaks into your home, you have the right to do pretty much what you choose to them in regards to keeping them from carrying out thefts and such. This is more a matter of what people can live with. So individually, I ask whether those with guns (since you have the means to shoot them at hand while the unarmed don't) would rather have their stuff stolen or shoot someone to keep it.
Great  questions Spinner...   Pardon if I'm repeating someone's answer...

This is a case where I am strictly conservative about, and think every state should have a law stating it.    If an individual catches someone who has forcibly entered his home, to steal or do harm to him/his family, he should protect himself however he feels, including killing the intruder.    I cannot stand thieves!  I know it's more difficult to deal with, when the thief is in a bank destroying one's wealth, pardon the tangent.

Does someone deserve to die for stealing my TV?   Not really...    The reason I think an intruder deserves to die, is because he will have made me permanently uncomfortable, and insecure in my own home.    Having said that, I hope and pray to never have to make that decision, and deal with that situation.    I believe I would be permanently damaged as well, if I took a human life.

I do wonder about all of the people who say, take a gun out only to shoot and kill.   Is it really that easy for anyone to kill, and be healthy and at peace with the decision thereafter?    What if the burglar is your neighbor/best friend's son or daughter?    
Again, my prayer is to never have to feel that threatened in my home or anywhere.    M



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RE: Tony Arambula, protecting home shot by police - 10/9/2009 11:23:25 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
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Status: offline 		Spinner, I like your thinking but have to agree with the "is he planning to make a return trip" line of thinking. If he breaks into my house he will meet either A) a double barrel 12 gauge which solves the shoot to kill or not dilemma, B) a semi auto pistol most likely fired until he stops moving or C) a 250 lb man armed with medieval weaponry because the guns were out of reach at that particular moment. There is no limit to the steps I will take to protect my family and there will be no remorse if my family is safe afterwards.

As for the question about the neighbor's kid being the burglar, every burglar, murderer, rapist and serial killer is someone's child. That doesn't mean that I should stop trying to protect my family so that their mommy doesn't cry. If your child endangers my family, I'm sorry that you raised an asshat. I'm sorry that he made the mistake of endangering my loved ones. I will not shed a tear over protecting my family unless I fail.

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RE: Tony Arambula, protecting home shot by police - 10/9/2009 11:39:16 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
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Status: offline 		Thank you for posting this story, Mz. Mia.  The actions taking by that police dept. at the scene and at the hospital are horrible.  I hope the family wins their lawsuit.

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RE: Tony Arambula, protecting home shot by police - 10/11/2009 2:26:06 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Oddly enough, I've heard just the opposite. Namely, that if you ever have to shoot someone make sure you empty the clip into him.


Never empty the clip. He may not be alone.


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