RE: submissive and feminist

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NormalOutside -> RE: submissive and feminist (10/10/2009 6:37:13 PM)
fast reply. It's too bad we have to consider ourselves feminists at all. The definition is someone who believes women should have equal rights. So I guess I'm a feminist, and a masculist too. Or, even better, I simply believe people should all have equal rights. I've never seen the power exchange to be about removing anyone's rights. D/s isn't about that to me. I've been with girls who considered themselves to be weaker simply because they were females, but I don't think they meant they should have less rights, they just considered themselves weaker in certain traits than most males, which was probably true. It didn't mean they should have less rights. I wouldn't be with a girl who wanted me to take away her rights simply because she was female.

XaviersXian -> RE: submissive and feminist (10/10/2009 7:11:04 PM)
greetings to all, I am what is termed liberal/first wave feminist. I believe that as a woman, I am well within my rights to choose my lifestyle for myself, and that no one has the right to judge me for it. I completely dislike the radical feminist line, but I also dislike radical "masculinism" (is that an accepted theoretical term??) that seems to be gaining momentum nowdays. I believe that (unless there is a personal arrangement in place, like in a D/s or M/s relationship) that both sexes are equal, yet different in their own special ways. Neither one is more "powerful" nor "capable" than the other. I'm going to generalise here a little, but from what I've observed over my lifetime, men often have difficulty with inter-relating to others, and women have difficulty with heavy physical labour. That said, there are definitely exceptions to this (growing up, I knew some women who could perform hard physical tasks just as well as the farming men around them, and at gatherings here in my city, interracted with men with such highly developed networking and communication skills that you could have mistaken them for women). I personally accept that I cannot do everything, nor be everyone for everybody, and I am perfectly ok with that. There is a certain personal comfort in knowing that I need to ask others for help. I apologise if my post has offended anyone. If it has, please feel free to contact me for my Master's email address. well wishes,

DemonKia -> RE: submissive and feminist (10/10/2009 10:08:00 PM)
On continuing read of the overall thread I wanted to add some nuance. I identify strongly with labels such as 'humanist', 'egalitarianist', & even 'transhumanist' . . . . My feminism is just part & parcel of all that . . . . .. & for a long time now, for me, formal feminism divides into sex-positive & sex-negative camps, basically . . . . . lol . . . . It's an important criterion for me ... . . But then, I always kinda wanted to be Hugh Hefner when I grow up, a very transgressive thing for a feminist grrlie to want in some quarters, lol . . . . . But, whatevah . . . . . I have also thought that all those who hate porn (anti-porn feminists & fundamentalist religionists) should make their own, that they like -- silly me . . . . lol . . . As to that faction of feminism that is deeply hostile to the very idea of pornography? I just ignore them for the most part. Jeff, jus' fer the fyi's of it, there's a long history of good / bad, better / worse judgment stuff being attached to masculine versus feminine traits. There's quite a bit of, lol, feminist & post-feminist work about that . . . . . Active is masculine is good; passive is feminine is bad, that sorta thing was all over the place in Western Civ, & even in the 'more balanced' Eastern perspectives . . . . & thanks to you & Carol for answering a question that had been itching at me as to where she was regarding feminism . . . . . quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 It's worth noting that in my opinion, there's another theme that gets wrapped up in this one and confused the issue. Many people seem to think that being in a subordinate position is somehow bad... a sign of weakness. Really, when you stop to think about it, the idea is preposterous, but like many a myth, it clings to us perniciously. But I suspect that discrimination against subordinates (for lack of a better phrase) gets mixed up with the feminism thing and taints the picture.

Drifa -> RE: submissive and feminist (10/11/2009 7:51:30 AM)
The only label I accept is "competent human being". I am in a D/s relationship as the submissive to a lesbian domme. I am also a masochist. And yes, I am a feminist. But all those labels are incidental to the fact that I am a strong, competent, caring, capable person whose character and personality are complex enough to allow many labels. I have the relationship that I want and need. I have thought about it and analyzed it at length. I've "processed" my desires in counseling sessions. I am not begging for beatings because I was overspanked as a child. I am not following a "patriarchal-modeled relationship" because I submit. I am not "betraying" lesbians everywhere because I actually do enjoy sex with either gender. I am not "anti-feminist" for craving the structure and safety of the submissive role in my relationship. I get more shit about being a submissive from lesbians who self-identify as feminists than from any other group of people. The same wimmin have gone all righteous about how using phallic dildoes or strap-ons is a "lesbian betrayal" and how I am somehow harming all lesbian relationships everywhere because I admit I enjoy a cock with a man attached to now and then, even though I just celebrated my 15th anniversary with my Lady in a SSC D/s long-term, committed relationship. I believe women and men alike should think for ourselves. That we should all look critically at information fed to us by the press and politicians, whether it's left, right, centrist, FOX or NPR. And I think labels are overly convenient mental handles and that we have to shake off the laziness to look past them.

slaveluci -> RE: submissive and feminist (10/11/2009 8:09:27 AM)
I agree with all the responses that speak of it being a choice and, as long as a woman can choose, that doesn't go against traditionally "feminist" tenets. I just wanted to add a quote that I read once on another BDSM site. This 20-something, very self-aware wise young lady had a sig line that read something like this: "My mother burned her bra so that I would have the freedom to choose to submit," or something like that. That always stuck with me and I think it rings very true. As long as anyone is in a position to choose for herself, she is empowered and not at odds with "feminist" ideals........luci

Fnyunj -> RE: submissive and feminist (10/12/2009 10:50:28 AM)
Male, Dom, and feminist. I agree with others - it's about our culture, and reversing the traditional patriarchially defined roles. You look at the BDSM sites, and there are plenty of Dominant females, and submissive males - surely it's in all of our natures, independent of sex.

beajez -> RE: submissive and feminist (10/12/2009 6:44:14 PM)
quote: Lucienne Lucienne, Well put. I get tired of men thinking that women having rights impignes on their own. The sterotype of the angry man hating lesbian feminist, is old.

lucylucy -> RE: submissive and feminist (10/12/2009 9:26:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DemonKia & for a long time now, for me, formal feminism divides into sex-positive & sex-negative camps, basically This is a really interesting way to frame it. I remember someone saying when I was in college that all sex was rape, taking to an extreme the view that because we live within a patriarchy, no woman ever truly consents and no man every truly needs consent. It's an interesting theory but it's ONLY a theory. This would be the extreme sex-negative camp. I just have to mention, given some of the play my boyfriend and I engage in that is 100% consensual, not all rape is, as Woopi Goldberg would say, rape rape. Many attitudes about sex and sexplay are so heavily grounded in their particular contexts that I think it’s almost impossible for an outsider to judge whether what’s happening is consensual or not. Certainly, anyone who witnessed one of our rape sessions would think my boyfriend was a completely depraved criminal, and if I were to try to explain that it was actually consensual, many people would think I had Stockholm Syndrome or some other psychological disorder. None of this takes away from the fact that rape can be a heinous crime. Can be. And the rapeplay my boyfriend and I engage in does not dismiss rape as a crime or make any statement whatsoever about rape as a crime.

geekgrrl -> RE: submissive and feminist (10/12/2009 10:03:30 PM)
I think that lucinne did a great job summarizing the ongoing discussion within the feminist community regarding kink, female submission, personal choice and when/if the individual choices of kinksters reinforces the patriarchy. These conversations often focus specifically on female subs who submit to male doms, sadly the perspective of femme dom and same sex D/s couples is largely ignored, excepting a few discussions about lesbian D/s) . if anyone wants an more in depth look at that discussion here are a few links the get you started http://community.feministing.com/2009/06/examining-the-examination-of-b.html http://www.alternet.org/sex/113745/the_fantasy_of_acceptable_'non-consent':_why_the_female_sexual_submissive_scares_us_(and_why_she_shouldn't)/ now I fall very clearly into the pro BDSM camp. I am a feminist and a submissive and I believes that theses two elements of my identity are compatible but the conversation within feminism is ongoing and feminists are a long long way from having a unified stand on the matter (in fact threads discussing kink on some of the larger feminist blogs sometimes get pretty nasty).

DemonKia -> RE: submissive and feminist (10/12/2009 10:30:04 PM)
Lucylucy, it was precisely because I've had 'feminist-deviant' sexual desires & etc all along that I've tended to be skeptical of the sex-negative end of the liberal spectra & more receptive to the sex-positive activists . .. . . Judging feminism on the extremism of some of its practitioners makes no more sense than it would to do that with the civil rights or gay-lesbian-bi-etc movements . . . . . These are relatively congruent movements (& there are plenty of others) for expanding human freedom . . . . & geekgrrl (love that username, by the by), one of the problems that's nagged at me about many discussions within the kink 'community' & about kink in the larger world is that there tends to be that narrow focus. But the generalizations obtained that way fall apart in the bigger picture. Stuff of significance for hets will be irrelevant for queers, & vice versa . .. . . I suspect that there's a sizeable chunk of self-identified feminists who are gonna be pre-disposed to get their buttons plugged by maledom / femsub. Such as the lesbian feminists Drifa mentioned . ... I tend to 'guard' the submissive aspects of myself, especially around audiences I'm concerned will be hostile . . . . .

jadedminx -> RE: submissive and feminist (10/14/2009 2:13:48 PM)
I'm a submissive and a feminist. I define feminism as women's efforts to gain equality in society. Being submissive I waive my right to that equality. I have never had my credibility questioned.

PeonForHer -> RE: submissive and feminist (10/14/2009 2:59:59 PM)
To me, there’s no issue; the fact that it’s a choice puts it in line with my feminist values. Correct - for most schools of feminist thought. However, there is the belief - arguably stronger in feminism (especially the radical variety) than in most other 'isms' - that 'the personal is political'. I'd say that a good counter to this charge is, "I choose to submit - relinquish equality - with just this one dominant person. Because I do that consciously, I'm perhaps better able to see the wider inequalities suffusing gender relations in society because most others lack the sharp contrast that my submissive D/s lifestyle gives to my worldview". Your own dominant could plausibly use a similar line to great effect, too. Alternatively, you could just tell anyone who levels that charge at you to feck off. That way they'd have a dose of cognitive dissonance to deal with. Something like, "I wanted to tell this woman that she was weak and unassertive. But . . . that wasn't a exactly weak and unassertive response from her. Hmm. Perhaps I need a rethink".

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