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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/18/2009 8:10:41 AM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy

I don't think there is a legal resolution to this.

Imagine her, and him, telling the story of that night repeatedly to a bunch of strangers who most likely do not know much of the nuances of a BDSM relationship or even a scene.

Most of them will hear the titillating details of what was done and what they were wearing etc. 

And they will be asked to believe that sex was NOT supposed to happen?

Most won't understand that.



In terms of doing a cost/benefit analysis of prosecution, the truth of this post should not be ignored. I have no problem calling what happened to lovingpet's friend sexual assault. Whether it was technically "rape" depends on the law of her jurisdiction, which may require an element of force in addition to the absence of consent. But the clear absence of consent equals sexual assault and would be charged as a felony in my state. That's the law.

The human element of having a jury doing the judging is, as already noted, a mess. Left to their own devices, a jury could easily be persuaded to acquit. Rape trials are always messy because they involve all sorts of cultural notions about sexuality, and the bdsm angle will just make it worse. Seriously, your odds of getting someone like Loki on jury are pretty strong. And the bdsm angle would also be more likely to draw media attention. The thought of a local Fox news reporter standing on the courthouse steps explaining to the audience what "bdsm" stands for would be enough to keep me from calling the police if I were in the victim's shoes.

I find it strange that the idea that the woman was supposed to be in control of the scene is taken by so many as a fact in the "not rape" column. Maybe it's a switch thing, but as I read the scenario, there's not a doubt in my mind that that guy knew he was in control when she said "no" and he did it anyway. Because he didn't get a smack in the head, or any other expected sign of dominance that one would reasonably expect under this scenario. I don't care what arguments a defense attorney could make about his mental state, in that moment control switched to him and he used it to do things that were contrary to the arranged scenario and her expressed wishes at the moment. Rape is about power. He had it. He used it. He took what he wanted.

I wouldn't call the police, but I would definitely spread the word about this guy being a dangerous play partner, who violates agreed upon terms and is liable to switch without warning. I'm sure plenty of people will think "oh, I'm a superior domme and he'd never get out of my control," but at least they have the warning.

Also, in all honesty, I probably would arrange for the man to be beaten. Not enough to be hospitalized or anything. But, yeah... he'd have a surprise encounter with one of my large male friends at some point in the future.

And now I'm a terrible person who's made my breakfast date wait while I typed this post, and he'll probably laugh at me when I explain "but someone on the internet needed help!" I'm not sure I've expressed myself clearly here, but I hope it helps lovingpet and her friend.

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/18/2009 8:20:11 AM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullfigRIMAAM1

quote:

 NovelApproach
most state laws is "sexual contact of any kind made against one participant's wishes."


So, one can attribute any bad sex to rape?    Oh lord, the husbands and wives who have mediocre sex are phucked.



There is a vast difference between "bad sex" and sex against someone's consent.
There is a difference between regrettable sex and sex against someone's consent.
There is a difference between mediocre sex and sex against someone's consent.




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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/18/2009 12:34:48 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NovelApproach
Really?  I think belittling rape as a "bad date" is pretty disrespectful and makes life harder on rape survivors.


Then you should be just as angry at the women who do, in fact, cry rape over a 'bad date' as they do far more harm to the real rape survivors than anyone else could.


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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/18/2009 12:41:19 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
There is a vast difference between "bad sex" and sex against someone's consent.
There is a difference between regrettable sex and sex against someone's consent.
There is a difference between mediocre sex and sex against someone's consent.


Unforunately, some cases I've seen recently are trying to dissolve those differences. There was a case in New York where a man and woman were having consentual sex, he was *mid-thrust* and she decided to say "no." However, because it took him 5 seconds to 'pull out' instead of 1 second, they are trying the man for rape. That is total bullshit.

Where does it lead? I'll tell you where. I cut off any and all contact with anyone I've ever had sex with because I know in the back of my mind they could get a wild hair up their ass one day and walk into a police station and accuse me of rape. And even though it's bullshit and they know it, I'd still be devoting all of my time and resources to defending myself. And at the end of all of it, whether I was successful in my defense or not, to some I would always be a rapist. Even if the investigation proved it was a bullshit story, nothing would happen to the girl, and my life would be fucked.

Do I honestly think someone I used to date would do this? Considering a good number of my relationships have ended because the girl either went psycho on me or flat-out lied to me, let's just say I wouldn't put it past any of them. As some have pointed out, all it takes is for them to feel remorse for having fucked me, then to point their finger at me and say it was rape. In our legal system, that's all it takes for my life to be over. And I have absolutely no recourse whatsoever. I can't even sue when the truth finally comes out.


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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/18/2009 1:25:10 PM   
DrkJourney


Posts: 1917
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Status: offline 		I'm posting this, just by reading the original post, so if this has been asked I apologise.

She said "no", but we all know about using that word while we are into things, which is why we use safe words.   Did they not have safe words in place?  I mean he might have thought it was just part of the "scene" (definitley not taking up for the guy, but that could've been what he thought)  Especially since this was their first time together and loads of people don't really get it.  If it was his first time, he might have been under the hollywood impression that it all terminates in sex.

I know some people in stressful situations can  not think clearly, so her lack of "fighting back" could be just that.  She just froze under the enormity of the situation. 

I guess it all depends on the talks they had, if any, before they got together.

If she used it and he kept going...I would make the stretch and say rape.  She feels it was rape, then she needs to persue it as such.

hope she doesn't see this guy again

sorry I'm being so sketchy, but with me reading what you have, I'm missing a few details, too many "what ifs" to really have an all out opinion.

I do wish her well and hope she can get through this

< Message edited by DrkJourney -- 10/18/2009 1:39:01 PM >

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/18/2009 1:35:14 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		She consistently said "no". He continued. Imo..that's rape. That she backed down and let him continue means she was probably afraid for her life or was confused about what was going on.

But without knowing more my opinion is just that..opinion, a guess at best.

Unless you have set up with the other person that "no" means "yes" or "continue", then when she says "no" it means "no" and in most courts it's going to be classified as rape.

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/18/2009 1:39:41 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
She consistently said "no". He continued. Imo..that's rape. That she backed down and let him continue means she was probably afraid for her life or was confused about what was going on.

But without knowing more my opinion is just that..opinion, a guess at best.

Unless you have set up with the other person that "no" means "yes" or "continue", then when she says "no" it means "no" and in most courts it's going to be classified as rape.


Actually, if you want to speak in legal terms, many 'lifestylers' are rapists. The law doesn't distinguish whether or not you "have it set up that no means yes." In the eyes of the law, if the word no was used, the word no was meant. Yet another reason why I choose to be VERY overly cautious in my life. If any woman walks into a police station and tells the cop she said no, and the guy says she said no but that it didn't mean no....guess what. The guy's a rapist.


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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/18/2009 5:56:43 PM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


Posts: 1160
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Status: offline 		Dear Lovingpet,
after reading all of your posts, I'm not as certain now of my position, in response to your first post.   I can say that I hope your friend works through this in whatever way brings her peace.   At the same time, I'm feeling like the man in question may have gotten mixed messages, especially given the D/s dynamics the meeting entailed.    If the first statemement you made, stood alone, I would not consider it rape.   The subsequent statements with no's inserted, but I'm not sure where, when, and whether limits were to be pushed, etc...   

I've been with people who lost their ability to say "no."    I have been in one or two episodes, where it was kind of a gross date, because I didn't stop things when I wasn't "feeling" the moment.     I see rape as extremely serious, and as such, I would want beyond reasonable doubt before destroying someone else's life.    
Having said that, I understand folks feel violated for any number of reasons, and so each has to follow his/her conscience in terms of reporting and consequence.   M

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/18/2009 6:25:41 PM   
lovingpet


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Status: offline 		Okay, some points of clarification that I am not sure if I have stated before. First of all, this was not a one night stand (or at least, wouldn't have been if this incident had not occurred). The two of them had spoken at length for a long while before this decision was made to move things up a notch. There was a great deal of pre scene discussion and he was well aware that he would NOT be having sex with her. This was made clear because it would have been a violation to her dominant. He agreed to this and she made a point of having him state clearly that he understood they weren't going to have sex. Technically, the "no" was stated weeks and hours before anything ever happened.

To answer dainty, yes, this occurred in her home. In some ways, it is my position that it will make the case even harder than it already is. Along with that, she is having to take into account the bdsm angle, which folks on these boards have demonstrated clearly will play into all this and not very favorably for her. Also against her are the facts that she backed down, though never removing her "no" with an "awww alright" or anything of that nature and that she did not fight. All the why's of it, she just can't articulate. I tend to think, based upon many a case, that it would be a combination of confusion and fear, also trying to be rational and thinking she wouldn't come to as much harm if she didn't resist. Who knows? It is funny how we all think we could be so objective in such a situation.

She is blunt that she clearly lost any semblance of control over the situation. The man did not switch on her. I think there were a few who missed that he was not in the dominant position. He was supposed to be a submissive with no switch tendancies, nor did he switch in the sense we would consider it. They had established safewords for his benefit. This is not a case of two switches flipping within a session and it not going as it was intended. She lost control of a session. He pressed forward despite knowing he was not to have sex with her prior to the start of things and her repeated "no" as the situation developed.

I still can't seem to recify myself with this. What I have been able to do is show her some idea of how people will approach her case. I don't know exactly why my sympathy button remains broken, but I don't think it is really a lack of believing her or trying to protect myself from the idea that it could happen to me. I know it can happen to me. I have been where she is trying to sort through things and figure out what it was that just happened to me. My situation was different, but the self doubt and feelings of not being believed were no different. She broke off contact with this person immediately and permanently. In the end, that may be all she can do and just live with a sense of the truth within herself. She has more or less decided not to press charges, but remains a little ambivalent about it.

lovingpet

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/18/2009 6:31:20 PM   
lovingpet


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Status: offline 		I absolutely agree that this is a very serious charge and not to be entered into lightly. I am glad you went back and read through everything. I hope I also further clarified some things while you were typing up this last post. I have had to report things in bits and pieces as she has been able to convey them, but I hope there is an overall picture.

lovingpet

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/18/2009 6:53:30 PM   
DomImus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet
I still can't seem to recify myself with this. What I have been able to do is show her some idea of how people will approach her case. I don't know exactly why my sympathy button remains broken, but I don't think it is really a lack of believing her or trying to protect myself from the idea that it could happen to me. I know it can happen to me. I have been where she is trying to sort through things and figure out what it was that just happened to me. My situation was different, but the self doubt and feelings of not being believed were no different.


Maybe that's why your sympathy button is broken. Perhaps your subconscious won't allow you to show sympathy that perhaps you yourself were not shown by others in your situation.




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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/18/2009 6:57:30 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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I agree that she lost control of the situation, but I think it's incorrect to say that he switched on her.  Guys are GUYS, right?   It could be he saw an opportunity, or created one out of whole cloth and then just kept pushing.  Men can be that way, when it comes to sex, and "dominance" has little or nothing to do with it.

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/18/2009 7:03:33 PM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		She said no repeatedly, she did not consent, that's all that's needed to make it rape. She may identify to feeling dominant over this man, but he obviously did not feel submissive to her will.

It is not required that she fight back and be overpowered to make it rape. This is a typical date rape scenario, not the stranger in the parking garage with the gun scenario. The fact that you feel she 'should' have been able to stop him in his tracks with her dominant voice is immaterial.

She refused consent and he had penetrative sex with her anyway. And that's the definition of rape, sex without consent.

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/18/2009 7:05:28 PM   
lovingpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet
I still can't seem to recify myself with this. What I have been able to do is show her some idea of how people will approach her case. I don't know exactly why my sympathy button remains broken, but I don't think it is really a lack of believing her or trying to protect myself from the idea that it could happen to me. I know it can happen to me. I have been where she is trying to sort through things and figure out what it was that just happened to me. My situation was different, but the self doubt and feelings of not being believed were no different.


Maybe that's why your sympathy button is broken. Perhaps your subconscious won't allow you to show sympathy that perhaps you yourself were not shown by others in your situation.





It very well could be, but it would be a first time. I work with domestic violence and rape victims on a regular basis and have yet to have such a reaction. I really don't understand my own reaction at all.

lovingpet

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/18/2009 7:06:59 PM   
DomImus


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Status: offline 		One thing about taking it to trial - the court will hear both sides while this forum has only been treated to one side and that's been word of mouth.


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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/18/2009 7:07:15 PM   
lovingpet


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Status: offline 		Agreed. This was not a mid session switch, as I discussed above. This was a man pressing whatever advantage he thought he had.

lovingpet

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/18/2009 7:10:28 PM   
lovingpet


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Status: offline 		And that can only serve to dillute her case even more the way I see it. If there is already a lot of things to pull at in her side, adding his is only going to make matters worse for her. I just don't see a win, but I do know all too well how harsh going through the system is. I hope, if her ambivalence swings again and sticks, that she is prepared for it.

lovingpet

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/18/2009 7:13:59 PM   
lovingpet


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Status: offline 		Agreed with all you said Des. My concern lies in whether or not the case can be successfully prosecuted at this point. She has come to the determination that she was, in fact, raped. What remains now is to determine what she will do about it.

I will say she is appreciating reading the encouraging words. She is also gaining a lot of insight based on those who have questioned or brought out areas that will be difficult in court. We both thank you all for contributing. We will look forward to more as well.

lovingpet

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/18/2009 7:44:55 PM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

There was a case in New York where a man and woman were having consentual sex, he was *mid-thrust* and she decided to say "no." However, because it took him 5 seconds to 'pull out' instead of 1 second, they are trying the man for rape. That is total bullshit.




Maybe it's just me, but five seconds of cock up my expressly unwilling cunt would seem like an eternity. Every *thrust* past "no" would be a dagger to my dignity.  But then I don't play with "no." A partner tells me "no" and I stop whatever the fuck I'm doing.

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/18/2009 8:16:10 PM   
Andalusite


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Status: offline 		RIMAAM, lovingpet clarified that her friend *DID* say no multiple times, and that no sex was negotiated ahead of time. Yes, there's a line between having regrets the next day and rape, but that is blatantly not the case here. This isn't mediocre sex, she's not accusing him of rape because she didn't have an orgasm!

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12
Why, when she was in charge, she chose not to physically intervene i don't know, and it really isn't germane to the topic, she said no, he chose not to obey.

However, i do think this woman needs to re-examine her motives and methods for and of domming. She needs to know why she didn't enforce her no with a stern grasp on the balls or nipples. She can't put herself into a situation where she doesn't have control, or can't enforce control. And obviously she can't enforce control physically if a man wishes to press the point, but she should be very plain in the way she says no - verbally and physically.

Are you *serious*!?! You really think that touching a man sexually (nipples and balls) is the way to stop a rape or sexual assault in progress? Perhaps she could have physically escalated, but at that point, it wasn't a BDSM scene any more. If she had become violent with him, he might well have returned it, and murdered or seriously injured her. Freezing in reaction to sexual assault and verbally saying no still means he raped her, even if she didn't try to fight with him.

Loki, there aren't many false accusations of rape or sexual assault in the first place. Of the few who do recant, most do so because the perpetrator is someone they love and are involved with (this happens with unconsensual domestic violence as well), or because they can't face the publicity/media, the dissection of their sex life, having to face their rapist/be in the same room with him again. Most aren't lying when they claimed they were raped, but when they "took it back." Threatening to prosecute them might lead to more rape trials, and possibly more convictions, but I don't think it's helpful.

While you might be technically correct that my previous Dominant could hypothetically be prosecuted for rape when I said no, we *clearly* negotiated a different safeword, and he was very sensitive to my body language. There's a huge difference between that and this situation, where she was supposedly the Dominant (so he has no excuse of "oh, I misunderstood her struggling and she didn't use the other safeword we negotiated"). Heck, there have been times when I was so sub-spacey that I couldn't say no, or red, or my own name, but the men I've been with have been with in those situations have been extra conscientious to be aware of my body language, and agreed that merely my freezing and going silent was a cue to back off and check in (since that is how I react to a hard hit that I'm struggling to process).

lovingpet, back when I was looking, one "submissive" wanted to come over and do housecleaning/cooking. We hadn't even talked on the phone yet, much less met in person. I think we'd exchanged a total of 3 e-mails. He wanted to have our first meet *on my birthday*, coming to my home, strip naked, and cook for me. I turned him down, and said flat out that I felt unsafe having a stranger in my home, *especially* one who was naked. He claimed that I needed to go to Match.com instead of here, since obviously I'm vanilla, since I'm not dominant enough to be certain I would be able to physically control a man who was 6" taller and 100 pounds heavier, just because he *claimed* to be submissive! This whole attitude toward her reminds me pretty strongly of that incident. Some submissive men seem to expect the whole "women being vulnerable due to our size and strength" issue to go away based on their self-reported D/s dynamic. Apparently, some women feel that way, too.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 10/18/2009 8:25:01 PM >

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