RE: Raped Mistress?

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Loki45 -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/18/2009 8:54:01 PM)
quote: Original: Lucienne That is total bullshit. Maybe it's just me, but five seconds of cock up my expressly unwilling cunt would seem like an eternity. Every thrust past "no" would be a dagger to my dignity. But then I don't play with "no." A partner tells me "no" and I stop whatever the fuck I'm doing. The number of seconds may not be accurate. However, the gist is the same. She and he were fucking, mid-thrust she says no. And since he didn't pull out "fast enough," his life is ruined and they are trying to paint him as a rapist. As for your "expressly unwilling" comment -- obviously she wasn't "that" unwilling, since they were already engaging in fully consentual sex. It's a very slippery slope, and the reason I don't do one-night stands. How long after consent has been given do we allow it to be removed? That case says that he can basically have just cum, then hear "no" and suddenly become a rapist. What's next? She texts him "no" the next day and has him locked up? Sends him a Christmas card with "no" written in it? It's getting ridiculous. We're going too far in the opposite direction. Rape... real rape is about as bad as it gets, as bad as murder in my eyes. But our legal system is creating rapists out of otherwise good guys. Let's look at "no" for a moment. How many use safewords instead of "no?" I'd bet a lot. Hell, I get off MUCH easier when the girl struggles, personally. Let's examine what truly constitutes lack of consent. How many movies have we seen were the girl says no and then starts kissing back and opens her blouse? Think that doesn't happen in real life? Guess what, technically, that's rape. If she said "no" but never retracted the "no," then according to what some have said here, it doesn't matter if she kisses back - it's still technically rape. See how sticky things can get and how fast? I've read countless stories, heard countless stories, seen countless movies and even witnessed some instances where things went from "no, no, we shouldn't, we can't" to "Mmmm, mmmm oh God yes" very quickly. The "legal pendulum" now says that type of situation is rape. Anyone wondering why I'm not exactly broken up that I'm single? Who needs that shit?

Loki45 -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/18/2009 9:06:14 PM)
quote: Original: Andalusite Loki, there aren't many false accusations of rape or sexual assault in the first place. If you're going to make such a claim, I'd love to see your source. I've posted no stats myself, but then I've made no claims as to the stats on real vs false accusations either, except to say I've seen a growing frequency of articles reporting on false claims. As for the rest of the comment you directed my way - that is EXACTLY the mentality that makes a false accusation so damaging. The whole "well just because she recanted doesn't mean he didn't do it." Or "just because he was found not guilty doesn't mean he's not guilty." Our society used to be one of "innocent until PROVEN guilty." However, in the case of rape, it's become one of "it doesn't matter what he says, what she recants, or what the jury finds, if she accused him, he MUST be a rapist." Once again I ask: anyone wonder why I'm not exactly losing sleep over being single?

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/18/2009 9:10:54 PM)
Let's look at "no" for a moment. How many use safewords instead of "no?" I'd bet a lot. I'm confused Loki, how many Dom/mes use a safeword? Isn't that for subs? Are you honestly saying she wasn't raped because she neglected to use one?

Loki45 -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/18/2009 9:20:57 PM)
quote: Original: zephyroftheNorth I'm confused Loki, how many Dom/mes use a safeword? Isn't that for subs? Are you honestly saying she wasn't raped because she neglected to use one? Safewords go both ways. And I'm not remotely saying she wasn't raped because she didn't use one. My comments were not in relation to the OP. They were in general as things apply to those of us in this lifestyle.

Lucienne -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/18/2009 9:26:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: Original: Lucienne Maybe it's just me, but five seconds of cock up my expressly unwilling cunt would seem like an eternity. Every thrust past "no" would be a dagger to my dignity. But then I don't play with "no." A partner tells me "no" and I stop whatever the fuck I'm doing. The number of seconds may not be accurate. However, the gist is the same. She and he were fucking, mid-thrust she says no. And since he didn't pull out "fast enough," his life is ruined and they are trying to paint him as a rapist. No, the gist is not the same. When someone says "no," you should stop immediately. We're talking about a penis, not an 18 wheeler. It doesn't take 5 seconds to stop a penis from continuing a thrusting action. quote: As for your "expressly unwilling" comment -- obviously she wasn't "that" unwilling, since they were already engaging in fully consentual sex. That's the problem. You think that once a preliminary level of consent is given that the he's totally clear for whatever he wants to do sexually. quote: It's a very slippery slope, and the reason I don't do one-night stands. How long after consent has been given do we allow it to be removed? That case says that he can basically have just cum, then hear "no" and suddenly become a rapist. What's next? She texts him "no" the next day and has him locked up? Sends him a Christmas card with "no" written in it? It's not that slippery at all. Lady says "no," you should stop. You're making an effort to grease the slope and make it seem like consent is something that's given at a very early stage (she came up to my apartment, what did she expect?!!) and can't be retracted. A woman saying "get your dick out of me" after you've made out with her a bit is NOT a step removed from some chick texting you the next day saying she regrets the physical contact you had the night before. It's getting ridiculous. We're going too far in the opposite direction. Rape... real rape is about as bad as it gets, as bad as murder in my eyes. But our legal system is creating rapists out of otherwise good guys. Let's look at "no" for a moment. How many use safewords instead of "no?" I'd bet a lot. Hell, I get off MUCH easier when the girl struggles, personally. Let's examine what truly constitutes lack of consent. How many movies have we seen were the girl says no and then starts kissing back and opens her blouse? Think that doesn't happen in real life? Guess what, technically, that's rape. If she said "no" but never retracted the "no," then according to what some have said here, it doesn't matter if she kisses back - it's still technically rape. See how sticky things can get and how fast? I've read countless stories, heard countless stories, seen countless movies and even witnessed some instances where things went from "no, no, we shouldn't, we can't" to "Mmmm, mmmm oh God yes" very quickly. The "legal pendulum" now says that type of situation is rape. Anyone wondering why I'm not exactly broken up that I'm single? Who needs that shit?

Loki45 -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/18/2009 10:04:09 PM)
quote: Original: Lucienne No, the gist is not the same. When someone says "no," you should stop immediately. We're talking about a penis, not an 18 wheeler. It doesn't take 5 seconds to stop a penis from continuing a thrusting action. Fine. Define immediately. 1 second? 2 seconds? How do you quantify it? You know it does take time to stop when you're mid-thrust. No, it's not like an 18-wheeler, but it still takes time for the 'stop' to reach the ears, for the signal to reach the brain, for the brain to go against the action that feels really good and to stop the action. You women may think it does not, but it does, especially if he's cumming at the moment. For guys, it's not just like 'lying there,' it's actual muscle movment. When the muscle tenses up for an orgasm, it's like trying to stop peeing mid-stream. You can't do it. We can try....but you'll just end up getting a shot in the eye or the stomach as we try and meet your ridiculous timing demands. quote: Original: Lucienne That's the problem. You think that once a preliminary level of consent is given that the he's totally clear for whatever he wants to do sexually. That's a nice logical leap, but you're wrong. In the case I am talking about, they're ALREADY FUCKING. She's already moaning, as is he. They're already riding the hobby-horse, as it were. That's FAR beyond "preliminary consent" and MUCH farther than the apartment comment you made. You're over-simplifying it. I would 'think' that once his dick is inside her, they're a bit past the "she's in my apartment" level of consent. Don't you? quote: Original: Lucienne A woman saying "get your dick out of me" after you've made out with her a bit is NOT a step removed from some chick texting you the next day saying she regrets the physical contact you had the night before. Here's another example of your over-simplification. "Get your dick out of me" is a comment reserved for....well, when the dick is actually "inside." Making out is a bit different. I mean I don't know how you make out, but when I have considered myself to be "making out," I still had my pants on. Thus the "get your dick out of me" comment wouldn't even be necessary. And regardless of whether you want to admit it or not, it is a slippery slope. As people have already indicated in this thread, there are women who will turn around and claim rape because they woke the next day feeling like a slut and wanted to justify their actions. I've lost count of the number of horror stories I have heard where the guy said "we had a great time, a wonderful night....she gave me her number, said she'd call me for a second date. Then I woke to detectives at my door the next morning." You think it doesn't happen, but it does.

FullfigRIMAAM1 -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/18/2009 11:40:58 PM)
quote: This whole attitude toward her reminds me pretty strongly of that incident. Some submissive men seem to expect the whole "women being vulnerable due to our size and strength" issue to go away based on their self-reported D/s dynamic. Apparently, some women feel that way, too. I know this is ask a Mistress, and we're all supposed to unite against an alleged wrongdoer, but you will have to excuse me since I've known men who've been wrongly accused, and flaky, lying, indecisive, pushy, etc. women as well. I don't know whether or not she was raped, not having been there, or knowing what she said/did exactly. My position is, having had moments where I wish I hadn't, and not wishing to make men pay, every time they suck, or don't listen to every word I say, my tendency is to want to leave no room for ambiguity when I want sex to stop... I have also asserted that there will be no sex before a date, and than there was sex (I know, unbelievably loose of me). I know many here are certain she did remove consent, and he forced himself on her... I doubt the man in this case would agree, and he would probably have more to say about the incident. As far as I am concerned, there is a lot of room for ambiguity, even given all that has been posted by the OP... Maybe she lost her ability to clearly measure the situation, and clearly communicate removal of consent... I'm not saying she was wrong. I'm simply saying, that without more info directly from both sides, I will not join in the stone throwing in this case. M I know this is going to get me kicked out of the feminist/fem supremacist club. [:-]

AlexandraLynch -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/19/2009 1:33:20 AM)
Some of the subtler coercions are tricky. A lot of women are socialized to a greater or lesser degree, even today, to default to silent acquiesiesce. It causes problems because sometimes in murky situations like this, a woman finds that it's terribly hard to say, "I don't want to do this" when the man with her so vividly wants to.

FullfigRIMAAM1 -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/19/2009 1:50:06 AM)
Many women are also socialized to say no to sex (even when actively engaged/enjoying), no matter how much she/they want it. No judgenments meant... I dated a boy who thought intercourse was strange and unacceptable between a lady and her slave. I told him I would be taking it when I wanted it, and eventually, he began asking/begging for it. I'm not in this lady's shoes, and absolutely mean no disrespect to her. But one has to try one's best to dispose of sublety and ambiguity whenever possible (one's life is not at risk), especially when wanting to criminally charge, and therefore permanently label someone a sexual predator. M

lovingpet -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/19/2009 5:12:23 AM)
I have to agree to some extent. It is a big deal to make accusations of rape. She certainly is not taking that fact lightly. She knows what it can mean for the man's life and even for her own to pursue this. That's an issue for a lot of people. They see this as a moral or ethical high ground in the face of what they experienced and do not follow through with charges. I can't really sit here and judge a person for their decision either way, but I don't think it is often taken into account how many people actually do decide to not seek prosecution with the ramifications of their actions in mind. I don't accept, however, that difficulty communicating or lack of struggle has anything to do with whether or not consent was removed. If I was gagged and a partner thought I said my safeword or otherwise objected in the real sense, that is time to stop everything and check on the situation before proceeding further. That would have been the appropriate response to any one of her no's. If he thought he was getting mixed messages, then he needed clarification, but did not bother to stop to obtain it. She does state that she knows for sure that he did hear her say no several times because he made comments about her objections. Still, he never stopped. It is not at all uncommon for people to freeze in these situations. It is probably one of the singlemost difficult things for the person to overcome the guilt and also to be believed by others. I'd like to say I would scream and fight and do absolutely anything to get away, but the fact is, when it came time, I did none of those things. It's a whole lot different living a nightmare than imagining one. I am not on the bandwagon either way about whether or not she was raped. In fact, I am having a hard time myself swallowing it and being the kind of supportive friend I would like to be. I have my own doubts and interpretations. I also have to keep in mind how it feels to feel violated and alone because no one believes. I have to remember what it feels like to know there will never be any kind of formal justice. I don't have to jump on board the ship to appreciate these things. At this point, she is still not planning to press charges. I will help her through this based on that decision as best I can. If she changes her mind and pursues legal remedy, I will help her through it that way as well. The best thing I can do right now is honor her pain, her process, and her decisions. I am not going to second guess regardless of my own inclinations. lovingpet

Lucienne -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/19/2009 8:20:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 Fine. Define immediately. 1 second? 2 seconds? How do you quantify it? You know it does take time to stop when you're mid-thrust. No, it's not like an 18-wheeler, but it still takes time for the 'stop' to reach the ears, for the signal to reach the brain, for the brain to go against the action that feels really good and to stop the action. You women may think it does not, but it does, especially if he's cumming at the moment. For guys, it's not just like 'lying there,' it's actual muscle movment. When the muscle tenses up for an orgasm, it's like trying to stop peeing mid-stream. You can't do it. We can try....but you'll just end up getting a shot in the eye or the stomach as we try and meet your ridiculous timing demands. There's a lot going on in your comments. But I think I'm going to focus on one thing. Stop. Reconsider what you just wrote. Is there a sexually active man on earth who is incapable of practicing the withdrawal method? Of course not. Guys in general are extremely good at pulling their junk out when it's time to cum. What you are arguing is transparently silly. It's not that you can't do it, it's that you don't want to. If you're having sex with a lady and she says "no," it is not acceptable to respond "but I'm almost finished." And I love the "shot in the eye" comment. It seems like an unlikely shot for most positions of intercourse. Did your imagination relive a "but you promised you wouldn't cum in my mouth!" conversation? quote: And regardless of whether you want to admit it or not, it is a slippery slope. As people have already indicated in this thread, there are women who will turn around and claim rape because they woke the next day feeling like a slut and wanted to justify their actions. I've lost count of the number of horror stories I have heard where the guy said "we had a great time, a wonderful night....she gave me her number, said she'd call me for a second date. Then I woke to detectives at my door the next morning." You think it doesn't happen, but it does. It's not that it doesn't ever happen, it's that it happens very rarely. It's not the sort of thing decent human beings behaving in a responsible fashion have to worry about. If you've lost count of the number of these stories you've heard, you're either searching these stories out or you know a lot of assholes.

Loki45 -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/19/2009 4:43:45 PM)
quote: Original: Lucienne There's a lot going on in your comments. But I think I'm going to focus on one thing. Stop. Reconsider what you just wrote. Is there a sexually active man on earth who is incapable of practicing the withdrawal method? Of course not. Guys in general are extremely good at pulling their junk out when it's time to cum. What you are arguing is transparently silly. It's not that you can't do it, it's that you don't want to. If you're having sex with a lady and she says "no," it is not acceptable to respond "but I'm almost finished." And I love the "shot in the eye" comment. It seems like an unlikely shot for most positions of intercourse. Did your imagination relive a "but you promised you wouldn't cum in my mouth!" conversation? Want to know what I think is the key to my argument and your response? Your complete lack of a willingness to answer my question. And that question is -- Define immediate. Is it 1 second? 2 seconds? As I've already indicated, the moment a woman says "no," there is time required for the signals to get where they need to go. Hell, studies have been done on reaction times in cars for breaking during extreme circumstances. If you can't activate your foot to hit the brake in a car in under a second when you see danger ahead, what the hell are you expecting when you say "no" and the guy is mid-thrust? Honestly? DEFINE IMMEDIATE. Do you expect him to slingshot across the room as though launched by a catapult? It doesn't happen. It can't. Your "no" doesn't control his muscles, his brain does. You first have to be certain he heard you -- and no, you can't assume that since you're that close he did hear what you said. I once had a girl tell me she loved me mid-coitus. Her mouth was about 6 inches from my ear and I still didn't hear her. Once the word is heard, there is a thing called reaction time. And that's something that will be hard to quantify. You can trot out your humorous lil replies about pulling out and such, but there's one problem with your joke. When a guy does the "pull-and-pray" method, the idea to pull out is his. Thus the reaction time is much quicker. When the directive comes from outside, the reaction time goes up. I don't think you can draw the line between 'good guy' and rapist at a 1-second increase in reaction time. quote: Original: Lucienne It's not that it doesn't ever happen, it's that it happens very rarely. It's not the sort of thing decent human beings behaving in a responsible fashion have to worry about. If you've lost count of the number of these stories you've heard, you're either searching these stories out or you know a lot of assholes. You know, I've heard death penalty opponents say that even one executed man is too many. Even one falsely accused man who bears the 'rapist' label for life is too many in my opinion. It's too many not because of the effect on the innocent man but the overall effect on the subject as a whole. Every falsely accused man whose life is ruined makes it much hearder for real rape victims everywhere. Every man who has his life ruined for a false accusation where the liar has nothing happen to her sends a message that any vindictive woman out there who wants to 'get even' with her man need only point and say "rape." That's terribly unfortunate.

Lucienne -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/19/2009 5:56:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: Original: Lucienne There's a lot going on in your comments. But I think I'm going to focus on one thing. Stop. Reconsider what you just wrote. Is there a sexually active man on earth who is incapable of practicing the withdrawal method? Of course not. Guys in general are extremely good at pulling their junk out when it's time to cum. What you are arguing is transparently silly. It's not that you can't do it, it's that you don't want to. If you're having sex with a lady and she says "no," it is not acceptable to respond "but I'm almost finished." And I love the "shot in the eye" comment. It seems like an unlikely shot for most positions of intercourse. Did your imagination relive a "but you promised you wouldn't cum in my mouth!" conversation? Want to know what I think is the key to my argument and your response? Your complete lack of a willingness to answer my question. And that question is -- Define immediate. Is it 1 second? 2 seconds? As I've already indicated, the moment a woman says "no," there is time required for the signals to get where they need to go. Hell, studies have been done on reaction times in cars for breaking during extreme circumstances. If you can't activate your foot to hit the brake in a car in under a second when you see danger ahead, what the hell are you expecting when you say "no" and the guy is mid-thrust? Honestly? DEFINE IMMEDIATE. Do you expect him to slingshot across the room as though launched by a catapult? It doesn't happen. It can't. Your "no" doesn't control his muscles, his brain does. You first have to be certain he heard you -- and no, you can't assume that since you're that close he did hear what you said. I once had a girl tell me she loved me mid-coitus. Her mouth was about 6 inches from my ear and I still didn't hear her. Once the word is heard, there is a thing called reaction time. And that's something that will be hard to quantify. You can trot out your humorous lil replies about pulling out and such, but there's one problem with your joke. When a guy does the "pull-and-pray" method, the idea to pull out is his. Thus the reaction time is much quicker. When the directive comes from outside, the reaction time goes up. I don't think you can draw the line between 'good guy' and rapist at a 1-second increase in reaction time. quote: Original: Lucienne It's not that it doesn't ever happen, it's that it happens very rarely. It's not the sort of thing decent human beings behaving in a responsible fashion have to worry about. If you've lost count of the number of these stories you've heard, you're either searching these stories out or you know a lot of assholes. You know, I've heard death penalty opponents say that even one executed man is too many. Even one falsely accused man who bears the 'rapist' label for life is too many in my opinion. It's too many not because of the effect on the innocent man but the overall effect on the subject as a whole. Every falsely accused man whose life is ruined makes it much hearder for real rape victims everywhere. Every man who has his life ruined for a false accusation where the liar has nothing happen to her sends a message that any vindictive woman out there who wants to 'get even' with her man need only point and say "rape." That's terribly unfortunate. Immediate is commonly defined as "as soon as possible." A man who is actually paying attention to his partner will, in fact, be capable of removing his penis from her vagina in under a second when she says no. If, as in your expanded scenario, she says "no" at the precise moment he is cumming, then there might be an extra second reaction time. But in my experience, guys who pay attention to their partners are capable of split second adjustments at signs of trouble. I've never said "no" in the middle of intercourse, but I've been in situations where the angle/thrust resulted in me yelping in pain and the guy always pulled out immediately without me asking him too. It's one thing to discuss a pain based scenario in advance, but decent human beings don't completely ignore signs of incidental harm without getting some signal from their partner to go ahead. Those signs come from outside of your head. All you have to do is pay attention. Your comparison to death penalty opponents is fucked up. If one false accusation of rape is too many, then the analogous result to banning the death penalty is to ban rape charges.

Loki45 -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/19/2009 7:07:47 PM)
quote: Original: Lucienne Immediate is commonly defined as "as soon as possible." Ahh, see there's the problem. You answered my request for a definition on 'immediate' with another phrase that needs definition. What's "as soon as possible?" Who makes up the grand council as to what determines what qualifies as "as soon as possible." The phrase itself leaves a LOT open to interpretation. You said before that "5 seconds inside you" with your being "expressly unwilling" was too long. But 5 seconds to a guy who may or may not have heard you say no could be a reasonable, common sense timeframe. As I said before, first, we must establish he did in fact hear you. If not, that 5-second eternity could easily jump to 10 as you have to repeat what you said so he can hear you. So I'll state again, placing some type of arbitrary 1-second time limit on the difference between a 'good guy' and a rapist is ridiculous. quote: Original: Lucienne I've never said "no" in the middle of intercourse, but I've been in situations where the angle/thrust resulted in me yelping in pain and the guy always pulled out immediately without me asking him too. And I've had a mistake in rhythm cause a girl to almost break my dick and of course, she backed off as well, very apologetic. Every situation is different. With all the different ways and positions in which humans have sex, it has to be conceivable that perhaps both people or one or the other is just so 'into it' that they don't hear a 'no.' It's not always a perfect moment of intimacy between two people in love. Sometimes it's one-night-stand, freak-deaky-nasty sex. You can't apply one standard to every situation. quote: Original: Lucienne Your comparison to death penalty opponents is fucked up. If one false accusation of rape is too many, then the analogous result to banning the death penalty is to ban rape charges. Not even close. You can take it there if you like, but it doesn't have to go there. All we need is (wait for it) more 'common sense.' We need to realize that not every bad date = rape. Not ever 'unheard no' = rape. Shit happens. We need to be smarter with the potential ramifications and realize that not every guy who doesn't pull out in some arbitrary timeframe is a rapist. Hell, if I'm balls-deep in a girl, the act of 'pulling out' itself can take at least a second. And I'm not trying to brag, either. I'm no larger than average. But unless you want some slight 'ripping' down there, it will take at least a second to extricate the penis from where it is in intimate moments....and that's after the 'no' is heard and processed by the brain.

lovingpet -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/19/2009 7:19:56 PM)
And folks wonder why rape is one of the most underreported crimes out there. [8\|] Once again, many rape victims think long and hard before ever pressing charges because of the consequences both to themselves and the person being accused. It is not uncommon for a victim to refuse to press charges simply based on the collateral damage, even when his/her case looks strong. Oh, and there is this little loophole legislation that does come into play if a person lies about the whole thing and gets caught. They can be convicted and jailed for providing false statements to law enforcement. If it is a true statement, but the jury finds not guilty, then everyone loses really. The victim gets no justice which may mean a much longer time trying to come to terms with what happened and the defendant's life may very well be ruined. No system is going to be perfect. We pretty much have to work with what we've got. lovingpet

Lucienne -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/19/2009 7:39:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: Original: Lucienne Immediate is commonly defined as "as soon as possible." Ahh, see there's the problem. You answered my request for a definition on 'immediate' with another phrase that needs definition. What's "as soon as possible?" Who makes up the grand council as to what determines what qualifies as "as soon as possible." The phrase itself leaves a LOT open to interpretation. Technically speaking, all definitions need further definition given that it all involves words. Apparently your dictionary has not been your friend. The grand council in charge of determining "as soon as possible" is known as a jury of your peers. quote: You said before that "5 seconds inside you" with your being "expressly unwilling" was too long. But 5 seconds to a guy who may or may not have heard you say no could be a reasonable, common sense timeframe. As I said before, first, we must establish he did in fact hear you. If not, that 5-second eternity could easily jump to 10 as you have to repeat what you said so he can hear you. So I'll state again, placing some type of arbitrary 1-second time limit on the difference between a 'good guy' and a rapist is ridiculous. You are the one trying to claim "arbitrary" time limits so that you can knock them down. My point, based on personal experience, is that a person who is paying attention to their partner can and will cease activities very quickly. The difference between a "good guy" and a rapist isn't 1 second, it's treating your sex partner like a human being, not a fucking gym sock. quote: It's not always a perfect moment of intimacy between two people in love. Sometimes it's one-night-stand, freak-deaky-nasty sex. You can't apply one standard to every situation. Sure you can. It's called the "absent of consent" standard. A decent human being would be even more cautious about consent in the "one-night-stand, freak-deaky-nasty sex" scenario precisely because they don't know their partner very well. The absence of familiarity with the person is not, and should not be, an excuse to ride roughshod over their wishes. Decent and responsible guys know this, and that's one of the many reasons they're not worried about detectives showing up at their doors. quote: Not even close. You can take it there if you like, but it doesn't have to go there. All we need is (wait for it) more 'common sense.' We need to realize that not every bad date = rape. Not ever 'unheard no' = rape. Shit happens. We need to be smarter with the potential ramifications and realize that not every guy who doesn't pull out in some arbitrary timeframe is a rapist. Well, yes, logically speaking, your comparison to death penalty opponents really does have to go there. And again, there is no arbitrary time frame in the law. You're just making that up. quote: Hell, if I'm balls-deep in a girl, the act of 'pulling out' itself can take at least a second. And I'm not trying to brag, either. I'm no larger than average. But unless you want some slight 'ripping' down there, it will take at least a second to extricate the penis from where it is in intimate moments....and that's after the 'no' is heard and processed by the brain. "Ripping"? Are you fucking kidding me? Is your penis made out of tissue paper? Does your partner suffer from vagina dentata?

Loki45 -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/19/2009 7:54:59 PM)
quote: Original: Lucienne Technically speaking, all definitions need further definition given that it all involves words. Apparently your dictionary has not been your friend. The grand council in charge of determining "as soon as possible" is known as a jury of your peers. And that's after the man's life has been ruined all because one person's definition of "as soon as possible" isn't the same as another person's. Thanks for making my point for me. quote: Original: Lucienne You are the one trying to claim "arbitrary" time limits so that you can knock them down. Actually no, the New York legal system is. That's where the case was that I read about. The man did stop but the woman claimed it wasn't fast enough. Now, no matter what happens in the case, the man is a rapist in many people's eyes. Why? Because he didn't stop "fast enough." quote: Original: Lucienne My point, based on personal experience, is that a person who is paying attention to their partner can and will cease activities very quickly. The difference between a "good guy" and a rapist isn't 1 second, it's treating your sex partner like a human being, not a fucking gym sock. Still a LOT of room for variation there. It doesn't always matter how you treat the person or how much attention you're paying. Oh and by the way, we haven't even brought in 'lifestyle' preferences yet. How about gags? Can't say 'no' then. How then do you determine when it's time to stop? quote: Original: Lucienne Sure you can. It's called the "absent of consent" standard. A decent human being would be even more cautious about consent in the "one-night-stand, freak-deaky-nasty sex" scenario precisely because they don't know their partner very well. The absence of familiarity with the person is not, and should not be, an excuse to ride roughshod over their wishes. Decent and responsible guys know this, and that's one of the many reasons they're not worried about detectives showing up at their doors. Ahh another word that lacks definition -- 'decent.' I've had sex a fair bit of times. I've heard the dirty details of encounters far more. I've had one friend describe an intimate moment with his wife as "pig-butt nasty sex." Is that what "decent people" do? I wouldn't think so. I can pick up any one of a handful of cosmo or maxim magazines where women detail some tryst they had and it will be anything but "decent." People are all different as are situations. There's no one standard that fits every one. quote: Original: Lucienne Well, yes, logically speaking, your comparison to death penalty opponents really does have to go there. And again, there is no arbitrary time frame in the law. You're just making that up. Nope, again the New York legal system "made it up" when they tried the man for RAPE for not pulling out "fast enough." quote: Original: Lucienne "Ripping"? Are you fucking kidding me? Is your penis made out of tissue paper? Does your partner suffer from vagina dentata? I wasn't referring to the penis ripping. I was talking about what you've got. Men's genitals are made of slightly sterner stuff. Aside from the aforementioned 'rhythmic mistake' I mentioned, guys' bits rarely lead them to say "stop honey, that hurts." Unless of course she's using teeth, but that's a whole other ball of wax.

Lucienne -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/19/2009 8:01:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 I wasn't referring to the penis ripping. I was talking about what you've got. Men's genitals are made of slightly sterner stuff. Ahahahahahaha. Ha! Slightly sterner stuff? I'm beginning to doubt that you have ever had sex, or watched porn, or know anything about human anatomy. The vagina is the mother fucking birth canal. Rest assured, it is built to withstand far greater pressure than your penis can bring to bear. Unless you've got razors embedded in your cock, you are not in danger of "ripping" a woman's vagina when you pull your dick out. I'm also going to add at this point that I think you are wise to avoid one night stands and many other sorts of interactions with women.

Loki45 -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/19/2009 8:35:31 PM)
Oh really? Then why is it I keep hearing that "there is such a thing as too large of a penis?" If women have super vaginas due to being built for child birth, explain the "honey, you're hitting my cervix and it hurts" statements. Explain the "you have to be gentle or it will hurt and I won't cum" bullshit. Hell, I had sex with one girl who complained of pain due to her "drying out" since it was our second time in 30 minutes and I was a little "insensitive" to the point where finishing was an increasingly unlikely outcome. We stopped not because I was in pain, but because she was. So don't sit there and regale me with "super vagina" stories, several magazine "tip" articles and several first and second-hand experiences would strongly disagree with you. Hell, you yourself have already mentioned instances where your partner had to stop because of pain you felt.

Loki45 -> RE: Raped Mistress? (10/19/2009 8:40:07 PM)
quote: Original: Lucienne I'm also going to add at this point that I think you are wise to avoid one night stands and many other sorts of interactions with women. Oh trust me, I know I am wise for that decision, just not for the reasons you think. Call me crazy, but I have this nagging desire to keep my own money, not have my car destroyed by a jealous ex, or any number of likely outcomes possible when dealing with an overly emotional and irrational person.

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