RE: Feminism

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Venatrix -> RE: Feminism (10/27/2009 6:10:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I'm a woman, thus more patient. I'll keep bouncing back and forth on this til you focus your aggression elsewhere ;) Elisabella, I have no doubt about that. Your frequent and lengthy posts, citing the same tiny or old studies over and over, indicate to me that you have little to fill your day beyond CM. I've reasoned with more open-minded two-year-olds, and I'm sure you're fully prepared to wear us all down; thing is, some of us have more to do, so, hasta la vista, kiddo. In any case, your patience has little to do with your sex. I'm a female and am one of the least patient people I know, but getting you to admit that everything doesn't come down to whether you're male or female is, I think, a concept that is beyond you, and thus, as I said earlier, it becomes impossible to have a dialogue with you. You aren't interested in a dialogue, you're only interested in browbeating people into returning to an age that makes Neanderthals look progressive.

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Feminism (10/27/2009 6:43:06 AM)
And women like you, Venatrix are only interested in women exercising the choices that you deem appropriate, which only turns women off feminism. Just the fact that you and your ilk don't see the desire to be a homemaker as a viable choice - yes choice - actually sets feminism back as the younger generation of women look at your extreme views and see them as nothing more than another dictatorship. Which is sad because it means fewer women fighting for our right to have choices in life. Sadly it's doubtful you will get it.

tazzygirl -> RE: Feminism (10/27/2009 6:49:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I don't really see much difference between conservative feminism and antifeminism, except perhaps in degree. Agreed. "Conservative feminism" is just a ploy to market anti-feminism to women who have to work for a living. The appeal to male supremacist ideology in the "men are different and better" section is a dead giveaway that there's nothing truly progressive or egalitarian intended. As for whether the majority of women self-identify as feminists? I think the majority of all human beings are apathetic at best--and there are far more women who identify as feminists than women who are willing to waste time and energy arguing with anti-progressives on a web forum. The chorus of women who bleat "Feminism isn't about real women's choices!" in this thread, and who turn out to be abject TPE female submissives when you check their profiles, is getting a little pathetic. Get this through your heads, ladies--no one cares about your personal life. Female submission does not need to be institutionalized just because it makes you wet, any more than your Male Dominant partner needs to go to work every morning in a speedo and start the day getting his female boss a cup of coffee and polishing her boots with his tongue, just because some male submissive somewhere might enjoy that fantasy in his private life. I take exception at this post for many reasons. real females? as opposed to fake ones? are we heading into "twue feminisim"? and, Dear, my sexual orientation shouldnt disturb you anymore than the fact that you may get off being all Domme and puffy up like towards a man doesnt disturb me. you like to beat them, i like them to beat me. you want a man to clean your boots, i do get wet cleaning a man's boots. its ALL about choices. no one forces you to be who you are. no one is forcing me to be who i am. and, believe me, many men have tried to force me to be what i am not... and it wasnt pretty. many women have thought the tag "slave" meant i should sit in the corner like a good girl until i was told what to do... ahem...imagine their surprise that, unless HE says so, it didnt happen. Neither of us are truly old enough to remember the ERA fights. Not the vote, but what lead up to that vote. Women didnt want equal... they wanted common sense. They wanted the right to choose. They wanted to be able to make millions of dollars a year, or nothing at all and stay at home. Equal pay should have never even entered the picture, but it did. Sex should not determine pay.. ever. Women got many of the rights they initially wanted because the neo-nazi feminist movement made things so extreme, and made what the initial movement wanted seem to benign in retrospect. Yet, what do i see yet again? Women, fighting women, not the laws, not the sexism, not the establishment, but each other. I will say that women like me, and a few others here who have posted, have made it increasingly easier for women like you, ShaktiSama, to be who you are and not have to hide it. Pro Dommes would have still been considered harlots, whores, trashy women, if it were not for the quiet efforts of those who did not turn radical during the women's movement. Those who kept their wits, understood the workings of a man's mind... and other parts... and showed them that while we wanted equal, we knew how to STILL be women. You saw i listed myself as slave. some consider me deeply so. some will not agree. it matters little to me either way. feminism is about choices... all choices.. for women. if you want to be the ball busting Domme you come across as on this thread, that is your choice... i applaud you. i choose to be slave. i hunger to be of service. for you to try (yes try because you have no power over my feelings on any level) to belittle anyone like me with the following comment... quote: The chorus of women who bleat "Feminism isn't about real women's choices!" in this thread, and who turn out to be abject TPE female submissives when you check their profiles, is getting a little pathetic. Get this through your heads, ladies--no one cares about your personal life. ... shows me you understand nothing about the feminist movement and are only utilizing it to springboard your own agenda. sad, really.

Lucienne -> RE: Feminism (10/27/2009 6:56:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I'm against the feminism of people like Shakti who feel that people like me and my fiance shouldn't advocate our own beliefs about how the world should be. I'm against all the posts that say "do what you want in your own home but don't try to validate your beliefs by making them a part of society." Oh, you can go ahead and try, we'll just call it out as idiotic bullshit based on a restrictive view of human nature. Your beliefs are already part of society. Those beliefs completely dominate in many corners of the world. Feminists work to argue your beliefs (as they exist in society) into submission. Slowly but surely, feminists are making advances. 3.4 yards per carry is all it takes.

Venatrix -> RE: Feminism (10/27/2009 6:59:09 AM)
No, Zephyr, I've NEVER said that. You know NOTHING about me and you are talking out of your arse, projecting your fears onto the rest of us. Go back a few pages and see where I said that I had no problem with women making WHATEVER choices they wanted to make privately, just don't try to drag society back to a male-chauvinistic stone age. You owe me an apology, but I doubt if you are man enough to offer one. Or are you a woman? Sorry, I can't tell from that photo.

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Feminism (10/27/2009 7:11:14 AM)
So our choices are good enough as long as we keep it private? Sorry but no, I have just as much a right to live my life as you do, which is the great thing about women having choices. Owe you an apology? Hell no...not as long as you advocate women like me having to hide what and who we are....and as far as having the balls to do anything, nothing could match the set you have. [:D] Venatrix you don't even register on my radar, insult away, it makes no difference to me. I'll just watch you puff up and explode while I remain calm and get on with my life. That you don't see the harm you do with your extreme views only makes me shake my head.

Venatrix -> RE: Feminism (10/27/2009 7:21:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth Venatrix you don't even register on my radar, Yeah, I'm so not on your radar that you keep replying to me. And I was already quite sure that you didn't have the balls to apologise, so that's no surprise. But, please don't flatter yourself that you have me all worked up. Anachronisms like you amuse me. That having been said, I have a job to go to. Some of us have lives outside of CM, at least for a few hours a day.

Live4ServeYOU -> RE: Feminism (10/27/2009 7:46:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I hate to tell you, but women are biologically inferior in quite a few ways. We're shorter, slower, have less muscle definition...do you think there would be "womens sports" like the WNBA if women could compete equally with men? This is false because you can't say this is true across the board. If you can say ALL men are superior because they are stronger than ALL women and taller than ALL women you may have something in those areas. It's just not the case. Plenty of women out there taller and stronger than alot of men. What about men shorter and less stronger than other men? Are they inferior to other men made of the SAME EXACT biological genes? What about the men stronger and taller than you (assuming you're the man posting here)? You mean to tell me you're inferior to those men stronger and taller than you?

Andalusite -> RE: Feminism (10/27/2009 8:07:28 AM)
Orion, there may be nature involved, but the nurture/skills learned tends to be very different for girls than for boys. I know a lot of women who are vehemently child-free, with no interest in nurturing children. Unfortunately, some women have children but aren't at all nurturing, or are even abusive. There's a lot of societal shaming directed at women who admit to having difficulty in that area, so you don't tend to hear or read about it as often. As a generality, women might well be more nurturing than men in general, but there are plenty of specific counterexamples. Personally, I wouldn't want to have a child unless we were in a position where at least one of us could stay at home (possibly working part-time or telecommuting), especially in the first 2-3 years. I know plenty of working parents who do a great job raising kids, but I don't believe in having kids or dogs unless you can spend several hours every day with them. Cats don't need as much attention/interaction, so they're a better choice for busy people, IMHO. I agree that society should value and support stay-at-home parents, and I haven't seen anyone on this thread denigrating that choice. If I understand Lucienne correctly, she wasn't criticising Wikipedia's documentation standards. It's more that a lot of people read a single Wiki article and then feel that they are instant experts, rather than bothering to do any research for themselves. You're correct that some academic websites and journals have deplorable standards. zephyr, working at home and raising kids is hard work! I admire parents who put a lot of themselves/their time into raising their children, whether or not they also work/go to school. In addition to being unpaid, they usually have scads of overtime and almost no vacations! Louve00, maternity (and paternity) leave is very much a feminist issue! Not that long ago, women who got pregnant were summarily fired, as soon as they started to show. Sometimes the excuse was morals, other times, they assumed that the woman, if she was married, would be too busy or not want to work. ShaktiSama, drawing parallels between the Nazi camps and Guantanamo, and between WWII and the wars in Iraq/Afganistan is reasonable, it's comparing like to like. Saying someone you disagree with on an internet board is as bad as a guard in such a place is an offensive comparison to make. Peon, it sounds like Elisabella agrees with some of the things on that list, but not others. Self-identity is rather tricky, and I agree that I wouldn't adopt a label based on so little information. She has said she doesn't consider herself to be a feminist, why argue with her? I've been able to negotiate good raises (over 100% when starting at one new job, a total of over 35% during my time at another, as well as that employer paying for my degree), and really haven't encountered much discrimination in terms of work, sports, and education. Most of the sexism I've run into has been of the annoying/obnoxious sort. I've refused to buy from a couple of dealerships because the salesperson said something sexist, "What color do you want?" (rather than if I wanted a car or truck, or what brand/model), expressing amazement that I, a woman, could drive a stick shift, disbelieving me when the brand new car I was going to test drive sounded like it had a bad transmission (I brought the manager out, and he agreed with me, but I just didn't want to give my money to people who would argue with me like that). I've had to deal with sexual harassment a few times at work (once from a boss, twice from co-workers). When guys make remarks about women being bad drivers, I ask rather pointedly why insurance companies charge us less than men, on average! I'm not saying that the struggle is completely over, that there are no improvements to make, and we do still need a lot of work in various areas. Compared to most times in history, and many places around the world in the present day, I think America is doing relatively well in this area!

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Feminism (10/27/2009 8:10:48 AM)
quote: zephyr, working at home and raising kids is hard work! I admire parents who put a lot of themselves/their time into raising their children, whether or not they also work/go to school. In addition to being unpaid, they usually have scads of overtime and almost no vacations! Which is exactly the point I've been making, which puts us on the same page [:)] We still have pics of my sis while she was on mat leave and she is so exhausted she looks stoned....and that was with having our Mom with her to help out for the first month!

Lucienne -> RE: Feminism (10/27/2009 9:47:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Andalusite expressing amazement that I, a woman, could drive a stick shift, disbelieving me when the brand new car I was going to test drive sounded like it had a bad transmission (I brought the manager out, and he agreed with me, but I just didn't want to give my money to people who would argue with me like that). I had a similar experience, except I didn't ask for the manager, I lifted the hood, snooped around a bit and said something along the lines of "you fuckers are trying to sell me a Katrina car." (the engine had painted over rust). Car salesman... are... the... worst. It truly does not matter what competency you display, they keep coming at you with their cliched ideas and techniques.

Lucienne -> RE: Feminism (10/27/2009 9:49:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth quote: zephyr, working at home and raising kids is hard work! I admire parents who put a lot of themselves/their time into raising their children, whether or not they also work/go to school. In addition to being unpaid, they usually have scads of overtime and almost no vacations! Which is exactly the point I've been making, which puts us on the same page [:)] We still have pics of my sis while she was on mat leave and she is so exhausted she looks stoned....and that was with having our Mom with her to help out for the first month! Absolutely no one on this thread has suggested that parenting isn't hard work. You are arguing with your imagination.

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Feminism (10/27/2009 9:51:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne quote: ORIGINAL: Andalusite expressing amazement that I, a woman, could drive a stick shift, disbelieving me when the brand new car I was going to test drive sounded like it had a bad transmission (I brought the manager out, and he agreed with me, but I just didn't want to give my money to people who would argue with me like that). I had a similar experience, except I didn't ask for the manager, I lifted the hood, snooped around a bit and said something along the lines of "you fuckers are trying to sell me a Katrina car." (the engine had painted over rust). Car salesman... are... the... worst. It truly does not matter what competency you display, they keep coming at you with their cliched ideas and techniques. Funny thing, Lucienne, there was a car salesman who lost a sale because a) he was too aggressive, and b) he insisted on talking only to my bro-in-law instead of my sis who was the one looking to buy...ah well his loss

DesFIP -> RE: Feminism (10/27/2009 9:55:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I hate to tell you, but women are biologically inferior in quite a few ways. We're shorter, slower, have less muscle definition...do you think there would be "womens sports" like the WNBA if women could compete equally with men? Also not true. My son wrestles, there are female wrestlers in the league. Competing equally with the boys. My daughter rides horses, you would assume all that male strength would allow the men to control their horses better. You're wrong. She has beaten all but one male, and the difference there was that his trainer trained his horse, she trained her own after school. Which is a lot less training then you get when you pay a professional. And on the college team, where the horses are ridden equal amounts? There isn't even a man who has made it to the top level. She's been there without going through tryouts since she started, she is that good.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Feminism (10/27/2009 10:09:11 AM)
Where shall I start? Hmmmm. quote: ORIGINAL: Venatrix No, Zephyr, I've NEVER said that. You know NOTHING about me and you are talking out of your arse, projecting your fears onto the rest of us. Go back a few pages and see where I said that I had no problem with women making WHATEVER choices they wanted to make privately, just don't try to drag society back to a male-chauvinistic stone age. A lot of hypocricy here. Male chauvinism is not okay, but the female chauvinism portrayed by you and a few others is okay? A female that has a different opinion than yours needs to keep it in the bedroom, and not out in society, but your opinion is okay to promote publically and impose on society? And here I thought part of feminism was getting rid of double standards. Now which group seems to be promoting a public lock step and salute to a common flag?

Venatrix -> RE: Feminism (10/27/2009 10:26:37 AM)
Please stop twisting my words. I never said she, or anyone else, wasn't entitled to express an opinion. My point, made several pages ago, was that one can hope for whatever world one wants, but we aren't going backwards. Even if a majority of people in the West wanted to do that, which they don't, the vast majority of men would have to work two full-time jobs for their entire adult working lives in order to support a non-working spouse and family, by the time taxes are taken out. I don't know of a single man who is willing to do that in order to turn the clock back. Times have changed, lament it all you want, but you people are the dinosaurs of society. Eventually you and your ideas will go the way of horse-drawn carriages: a quaint notation to history books, and surprise that that's how things once were. You, along with Zephyr and Elisabella, do nothing but attribute to the rest of us things we've never said. If that's the best you can do to support your position, you are in very weak shape, indeed.

Lucienne -> RE: Feminism (10/27/2009 10:34:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Where shall I start? Hmmmm. The Second Sex? Full Frontal Feminism? I'm not sure, I haven't read any full length books on the subject of feminism. But I'm sure others on this thread could make some recommendations to you that will help you get a better foundational grasp of the subject matter.

PeonForHer -> RE: Feminism (10/27/2009 11:06:43 AM)
Peon, it sounds like Elisabella agrees with some of the things on that list, but not others. Self-identity is rather tricky, and I agree that I wouldn't adopt a label based on so little information. She has said she doesn't consider herself to be a feminist, why argue with her? Firstly, she's said she broadly agrees with most of it, if I read her rightly. (Though some of it is a little conservative for her tastes . . .) To my mind, she's got a very hazy idea of the nature of her enemy; by the same token, she doesn't really know who her friends are, either. The mere fact of her arguing on this forum is confirmation of a level of feminism - because to do so carries the assumption of some sense of equality between herself and others - including men. (I suspect that there's more than a bit of wincing going on amongst some of the more aggressive male antifeminists here - of the nature of "This girly's got good arguments - but she's showing some very unfeminine stridency here. She should be cooking a good meal for me instead".) At bottom I hate seeing the wrong people being attacked; even more, I hate seeing someone betray the very people who've helped him or her so much. To me, it's always been one of the most loathsome things in politics. Secondly, I'm not going to collude in the right wing, propagandising exercise that has succeeded in convincing lots of people that feminism is to be typified by the most extreme pronouncements by the most extreme radical feminists (especially separatists). It's the oldest trick in the propagandists' book: all socialists are bolsheviks, all liberals are anarchists, all greens are totalitarians. The same trick has been done since Roman times with Christians, as I'm sure you know . . .

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Feminism (10/27/2009 11:08:52 AM)
Of course not...you "allow" us our opinion as long as it's the same as yours or we keep it out of public view, which is absurd in the extreme.

LaTigresse -> RE: Feminism (10/27/2009 11:21:31 AM)
If women are supposed to be the more patient of the two genders I am SOOOOOOOOOOOO screwed and not in a good way. I lost patience in hoping for any intelligent debate in this thread about 5 pages ago. Parties from both sides have sunk to pathetic levels.

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