RE: GREED - when is enough enough? (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> RE: GREED - when is enough enough? (10/15/2009 5:00:40 PM)


"It's a zero sum game, somebody wins, somebody loses. Money itself isn't lost or made, it's simply transferred from one perception to another."
quote:

That's a truly sad philosophy to live your life by.
It's not a "philosophy to live your life by"; it is reality. It also has nothing whatsoever with "morality or ethics". It's not "become" this, it was, is, and always will be pragmatically accurate. Whether in the form of 'economic redistribution' through taxation, or employees effort converted to a salary not equal to the cost of the product producing gains for the employer.
quote:

We no longer equate business or investing with any code of morality or ethics...
Truely incongruous to the quote you reference but it does beg the question. Since you say "no longer" when did a different condition exist? When was gain sacrificed for morality and/or ethics? Individual altruism itself is a function of the zero sum formula; donations offsetting taxation. Greed for property, generating the current foreclosure crisis is a function of the zero sum formula. "Get the largest mortgage you can qualify for, you may pay more but you'll own a larger property and the larger interest payment will offset (zero sum) your tax obligation. Moral, ethical to get a big house with a big mortgage instead of paying your income appropriate tax? Or don't you want that type of "greed" or "morality" considered, preferring to keep the accusation finger pointed to only businesses who use and exploit similarly beneficial tax regulations to realize similar 'zero sum' tax benefits except on a larger scale?

Specifically to the quote from Wall Street; what "gain", of any time, comes without a loss from another source?



MrRodgers -> RE: GREED - when is enough enough? (10/15/2009 6:39:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Greed is bad the moment it causes you to take something that someone else needs, simply because you want.

Well Grekko was right...'greed is good.' 'I am not talking $50 million and just being comfortable, I am talking $500 million and really being a player.'

That's the creed of the capitalist who buy a co's.  paper up to 51% only to parcel it out for several times more. Or they buy 30-40% announce it, inflate the price through the attempt at a hostile takeover and hold management hostage to sell out at a very, very profitable premium. Obviously proves wrong the whole theory of the 'market' already placing the correct price on a stock. This also reduces employment at both entities.

It was done because of greed and it could be done and simply buy trading paper and using our mutual funds and their fiduciary responsibilities 'forcing them' to use our money to back up the new paper when resold on the market. ALL because they could do it, will do it and are still doing it now with derivatives. It's called capitalism.

This should be teaching us the vacuousness of capitalism which is essentially turning paper into money...using their paper...our money and we take the risk.

Look for Wall Street II. Stone and Douglass again.



einstien5201 -> RE: GREED - when is enough enough? (10/16/2009 12:17:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: einstien5201
Last I heard, Bill Gates was *the* richest man alive. Who have you found that's richer?

The Sultan of Brunei?


Not according to Forbes, but I'll admit I don't know if they include heads-of-state in thier list.

Forbes's Richest Men



Politesub53 -> RE: GREED - when is enough enough? (10/16/2009 2:24:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


Realizing that and using that knowledge to your advantage is the best position you can hope to achieve because of another quote from the movie which reflected reality in 1987 as it does today; "It's a zero sum game, somebody wins, somebody loses. Money itself isn't lost or made, it's simply transferred from one perception to another."



That's a truly sad philosophy to live your life by.

But worse than sad, it's the reason why we are in this economic situation.

We no longer equate business or investing with any code of morality or ethics, it has become whatever earns the most profit under any circumstance.



On this point, I agree with Merc, investing has never been about being moral but about making profit, even those investing in an idea still wanted to see a healthy return. This goes right back to the original industrial revolution here in the UK. Merc`s comment on the DJ thread about making a profit on penny shares illustrates a good point, he put his money into shares, took a risk and it paid off. I dont blame him or see that as greed.

What I do see as greed is CEO`s paying each other large salaries knowing the company they are running is going downhill fast. The Rover car group in the UK being a prime example.

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Search-Results/Industry-News/Phoenix-Four-MG-Rover-directors-to-be-banned/



Musicmystery -> RE: GREED - when is enough enough? (10/16/2009 12:56:55 PM)

Hi Rick,

I think, in the context you're presenting it, that the issue isn't truly greed, but power and status.

In a capitalist society--those things are defined by and made possible by capital.

Live well,

Tim



Ialdabaoth -> RE: GREED - when is enough enough? (10/16/2009 1:04:53 PM)

Actually, power and status *ARE* greed. "I want nice things" isn't greed. "I want to be able to do what I want" isn't greed. But "I want to boss other people around, whether they WANT to do what I say or not!" is greed. "I want people to be envious of me!" is greed.



Musicmystery -> RE: GREED - when is enough enough? (10/16/2009 1:36:56 PM)

You have a lot of words that mean the same thing, then. Like selfishness or self-centeredness. Or even childishness and immaturity.

Shorten the dictionary, anyway.



Ialdabaoth -> RE: GREED - when is enough enough? (10/16/2009 3:09:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You have a lot of words that mean the same thing, then. Like selfishness or self-centeredness. Or even childishness and immaturity.

Shorten the dictionary, anyway.


Nah. I don't go for the destruction of words. Nuance and tone are awesome things.



SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: GREED - when is enough enough? (10/16/2009 3:57:53 PM)

You all sound jealous of the rich people to me.

Poor people should take comfort in the fact greedy rich people just end up wasting their money on crap they don't need. They seem to be very stupid with spare money and will pay a fortune for something others wouldn't bother with i.e. modern art etc. I'd hate to be so wealthy that I thought a gigantic block of polystyrene worth buying. It’s probably easier to scam rich people because they have no sense of value or the worth of their work. We all know what £100 means in terms of the hours you have to work to get it thus we aren’t easily parted with the fruits of that labour.

Probably the only good thing about being wealthy is financial security but that has to be balanced with the higher dangers to personal security i.e. poor people aren’t worth much in terms of blackmail etc.

I could be wrong but I see those luxury cars driving about and think.. I would never buy one for a five minute journey. In truth I'd probably never buy one at all. Do I really need to extend my living room to the road? No.

Also they can't take it with them unless they request in their will to have ten thousand slaves build a gigantic pyramid over their dead rotting corpse.



Moonhead -> RE: GREED - when is enough enough? (10/16/2009 4:17:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: einstien5201


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: einstien5201
Last I heard, Bill Gates was *the* richest man alive. Who have you found that's richer?

The Sultan of Brunei?


Not according to Forbes, but I'll admit I don't know if they include heads-of-state in thier list.

Forbes's Richest Men

Thanks. Iirc,the Sultan of Brunei held the title before Gates rose to prominence, so I wondered if he might not have regained it since the lad retired.



rulemylife -> RE: GREED - when is enough enough? (10/16/2009 6:47:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

It's not a "philosophy to live your life by"; it is reality. It also has nothing whatsoever with "morality or ethics". It's not "become" this, it was, is, and always will be pragmatically accurate. Whether in the form of 'economic redistribution' through taxation, or employees effort converted to a salary not equal to the cost of the product producing gains for the employer.


Of course it does.

But somewhere along the line, and for me I believe it was Reagan's policies as typified by the "Wall Street" quote, that has led to the business atmosphere we have in this country now where corruption is not only tolerated but encouraged.

If you want to argue that the only only duty of business is to turn a profit, and ethical and moral considerations are secondary to that, then you are arguing that capitalism is pure greed.


quote:

Truely incongruous to the quote you reference but it does beg the question. Since you say "no longer" when did a different condition exist? When was gain sacrificed for morality and/or ethics?


As usual, you are drifting off into a number of different issues so let me just address the first one.

The entire concept of a corporation was based on the idea that while the company enjoyed the benefits of being a separate legal entity, conferring certain legal  protections and tax benefits to the company owners, officers, and shareholders, it also had duties a a "corporate citizen" to the community in exchange for those protections and benefits.






Anarrus -> RE: GREED - when is enough enough? (10/16/2009 7:32:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Hi Rick,

I think, in the context you're presenting it, that the issue isn't truly greed, but power and status.

In a capitalist society--those things are defined by and made possible by capital.

Live well,

Tim


Hi Tim,

How's everything up in the great white north country?

It may come across as that in the context I presented, but wouldn't you agree that the lust for power and status ( in it's many forms) and the focus on acquiring as much of either as possible could easily be defined as greed? Now I'd agree with you wholeheartedly that power and status in a capitalist society are, well, made possible by capital. But I have no argument with either power or status, nor with capital for that matter. All can be useful tools and a means to an end in the right circumstances, even beneficial means to an end.
Self-interest that I spoke of in a previous post can be a very positive quality. One's self-interest can even benefit others. But selfish-interest; I really can't be convinced, nor will anyone ever be able to convince me selfish-interest has any redeeming quality at all and no real benefit to even the one with selfish-interest. When one's aquired all that can be had to sustain themselves comfortably, richly and luxuriously (subjective I know) and provide for one's own security and well being then what more is needed? The more important question to ask is why is it needed? I'll never accept the answers "because I can" or that it's just "sport" to some. I tend to agree with Termyn8or that it's an addiction or a disease and if a disease, a psychological afflication associated with deep insecurity of some form or another.

Tim, you and I are both fans of a certain series of books. In one of those books (9, I believe), a great man and warrior sat alone in his great hall afflicted with an illness. All that ran through his mind was the acquisition of a certain female as mate and all of the power and riches and status that would be born from a companionship with her. It plagued his mind and skewed his judgement as much as the illness plagued his body. The point was driven home over and over again if I recall correctly. Do you think there was a lesson to be learned there somewhere?

Be well my friend



servantforuse -> RE: GREED - when is enough enough? (10/16/2009 7:45:52 PM)

Can someone here explain to me just what corporate greed is ? Corporations are owned by shareholders who invest in that company. The people who run the company are supposed to make money for that company. What in the world is wrong with that.? I just don't get it. When corporations make money, they hire new employees to make more money. What is wrong with that ? Making a profit is a GOOD THING



tazzygirl -> RE: GREED - when is enough enough? (10/16/2009 7:51:16 PM)

AIG made a profit.  Chase made a profit.  Lehmans made a profit.  The Big Three Car Companies made profits.

And you see how they handled their profits as a good thing?



DarkSteven -> RE: GREED - when is enough enough? (10/16/2009 7:51:28 PM)

I'll be happy to.

Note that the company officers hold large chunks of company stock.  Ergo, "corporate" greed is the greed of those top officers who can manipulate the stock as well as benefit from that manipulation.

That greed takes the form of:

Insider trading
Short term gains that hurt the company in the long term
Misreporting (For example, there was one VP of Operations who made the QA department come in on a weekend and stamp approval on product that should have failed so he could get his own bonus)

Basically, any actions that enrich oneself while hurting the company.



servantforuse -> RE: GREED - when is enough enough? (10/16/2009 8:10:44 PM)

dARK, Every thing you just mentioned is illegal. If you work for a company engaging in these practices, go to the authorities...



DarkSteven -> RE: GREED - when is enough enough? (10/16/2009 8:22:58 PM)

I did go to the authorities once to report a case of federal fraud.  It got me labeled as disloyal and hurt my future with the company.  (It also got the perpetrator fired.)



rulemylife -> RE: GREED - when is enough enough? (10/16/2009 9:09:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I did go to the authorities once to report a case of federal fraud.  It got me labeled as disloyal and hurt my future with the company.  (It also got the perpetrator fired.)


I had a similar situation.

I walked off the job when I was told that my continued employment depended on participating in clearly illegal actions.

They then tried to sue me for the remainder of my employment contract.

Which was quickly dropped when I made clear I would be explaining all the details of their illegal operations in open court.



UncleNasty -> RE: GREED - when is enough enough? (10/17/2009 8:18:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

And how did "Matthew" know that? He do a round trip to heaven did he?
Translation; "Give *US* your money!"


He didn't have to popeye. My understanding (though memory has faded somewhat) is that the "eye of the needle" referred to a specific opening in the city walls that camels had to pass through before entering the city. It related to commerce and taxation. If a camel was not so loaded with goods then it could pass through the opening. If it was so over loaded that it could not then certain fees would be paid before being allowed to enter.

You could probably do a net search and turn up this information.

Uncle Nasty



Musicmystery -> RE: GREED - when is enough enough? (10/17/2009 9:32:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Hi Rick,

I think, in the context you're presenting it, that the issue isn't truly greed, but power and status.

In a capitalist society--those things are defined by and made possible by capital.

Live well,

Tim


Hi Tim,

How's everything up in the great white north country?

It may come across as that in the context I presented, but wouldn't you agree that the lust for power and status ( in it's many forms) and the focus on acquiring as much of either as possible could easily be defined as greed? Now I'd agree with you wholeheartedly that power and status in a capitalist society are, well, made possible by capital. But I have no argument with either power or status, nor with capital for that matter. All can be useful tools and a means to an end in the right circumstances, even beneficial means to an end.
Self-interest that I spoke of in a previous post can be a very positive quality. One's self-interest can even benefit others. But selfish-interest; I really can't be convinced, nor will anyone ever be able to convince me selfish-interest has any redeeming quality at all and no real benefit to even the one with selfish-interest. When one's aquired all that can be had to sustain themselves comfortably, richly and luxuriously (subjective I know) and provide for one's own security and well being then what more is needed? The more important question to ask is why is it needed? I'll never accept the answers "because I can" or that it's just "sport" to some. I tend to agree with Termyn8or that it's an addiction or a disease and if a disease, a psychological afflication associated with deep insecurity of some form or another.

Tim, you and I are both fans of a certain series of books. In one of those books (9, I believe), a great man and warrior sat alone in his great hall afflicted with an illness. All that ran through his mind was the acquisition of a certain female as mate and all of the power and riches and status that would be born from a companionship with her. It plagued his mind and skewed his judgement as much as the illness plagued his body. The point was driven home over and over again if I recall correctly. Do you think there was a lesson to be learned there somewhere?

Be well my friend


Fair enough, but begs the question.

What's your explanation for needless greed, then?

My point is that what looks like greed is often about power and ego. If wanting generically is greed, then arguably anything in excessive of what is required is greed--extra helpings, another round of sex, an extra hour walking in the park...that seems a poor definition to me.

There are people who thirst for power. Money is just one of the tools. There are people who are entirely driven by ego-based competition. They don't know what they want, but they just have to win. Again, money becomes a tool, but not the actual problem--just the enabler.

Sure...there's flat out greed too. And I agree these decisions are often based on poor core principles. But until those principles change, the outer manifestation of those directions will remain.

I don't have an answer. The thirst for power has never made sense to me. I even have a fair amount of power in at least some of life's spheres, and it still doesn't make sense to me. Other things are just more important--but others don't see it that way.

Live well.



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