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RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/15/2009 4:38:47 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

A Dom/me has the responsibility to mold and change their sub.



Exactly where did you get that Hope Diamond sized load of crap from?!!  This assumes:

a)  Every sub/slave is some wandering, blank idiot till they're saved by the all-knowing Toppy-Top
b)  Every sub/slave is fundamentally flawed in all areas of their life, and needs molding/changing
c)  Every sub/slave is so flawed, they bring nothing to the table... till AFTER they've been "molded and changed"

Good GAWD... where do some of you people come up with this stuff;  is there a DumbDoms.com website out there somewhere people have been visiting?!!  Pssst... most Dom/mes and subs/slaves elect to move forward with each other because they GENUINELY LIKE WHO THE PERSON IS AND WANT TO BE INVOLVED WITH THEM BECAUSE OF WHO THEY ARE;  NOT TO "CHANGE" WHO THEY ARE.  If said Dom/mes didn't, and thought them the hopeless morons you seem to think they are, they never would have gotten involved with them.

When the topic of "Training" comes into play, it's simply teaching the sub/slave how their respective Toppy Type likes to be pleased; it's not about "changing" them as you seem to believe.  This sort of nonsense smacks of desperate, Internet Dom/me, can't get laid, they're nothin' without me, and I'm here to save them bullshit that assumes sub/slave = helpless idiot.

Contrary to what you might think, the only "responsibility" of a Dom/me is to be... DOMINANT.  If you didn't like a sub/slave so much that you need to "change" them, then you shouldn't have ever become involved with them.  Fact is, people DON'T "change"... you are who you are; despite whatever Toppy fantasy out there leads some to think they're going to ride in on their white horse and SAVE the poor, idiotic, helpless little sub/slave.  A shocker, I'm sure, but most subs/slaves get up every day, work, shop, pay bills, raise families, and a bunch of other nifty stuff all humans do;  they simply desire a dominant partner to please, just as those on the other side of the slash desire a submissive partner to please them.

GEEZ!!!



_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/15/2009 5:54:59 PM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal
I am lucky in that sense. I want most of all for an alien dominant (preferably with *tentacles*) to chain me to his tardis and carry me away through time and space. It's pretty easy to tell when people are faking that. They always get the interior of the tardis wrong.


Hey, if he's got a spare K9 in the tardis, can I have it? Please?



Hell, you can have the original! He was a mouthy little mechanoid.

Actually I kind of liked him. Around that time there were a lot of super nerdy robots floating around on TV (Danger, Will Robinson! Flap Flap Flap!) but he was one of the best. :D

_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/15/2009 6:18:14 PM   
ncbabe


Posts: 1060
Joined: 4/19/2009
Status: offline 		My owner does not manipulate me, he guides me.  I am not always aware of him doing it until I am where he wants me to be.  I used to try to figure out what he was doing with me, but I have long since learned that it is much more productive to simply go with the flow.  Questioning his motives is helpful to neither him nor me, and since I trust him and he has never betrayed that trust I have no reason to question him anyway.

(in reply to VeeTee)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/15/2009 6:24:12 PM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian
Caring, I'd say you hit the mark very well with that interpretation, and then some. I have seen more than one woman (and man) caught up in their own self deception about their loyalties and resolve in submission. Somewhere along the line they overextend—making promises they can never really keep. In that light, sometimes it is important to note that the dominant can be victimized too, even if unintentionally, in the end.


Yep. I think I've seen that scene played out before. Submissives want to please, so they say yes too early or promise too much, meaning it at the time because it feels so sexy and romantic and selfless, not thinking through the conseqences or imagining the long term, and yes, self-deception coupled with a (un?)healthy ego makes them believe they can do more than they can. And then when the reality, whatever it is, hits them on the head, "Oh! Hello, I must be going!" It tends to leave me flabbergasted, particularly in those cases where there was clearly a very good fit. Good love, as the man said, is hard to find.

_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to MarcEsadrian)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/15/2009 6:52:13 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Yes. Subs/slaves tend to be in too much of a hurry, wanting to jump in before a strong framework has a chance.

(in reply to CaringandReal)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/16/2009 4:40:10 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

Yep. I think I've seen that scene played out before. Submissives want to please, so they say yes too early or promise too much, meaning it at the time because it feels so sexy and romantic and selfless, not thinking through the conseqences or imagining the long term, and yes, self-deception coupled with a (un?)healthy ego makes them believe they can do more than they can. And then when the reality, whatever it is, hits them on the head, "Oh! Hello, I must be going!"


a poet once said that kisses aren't contracts. i don't know the context of your reference but i don't think anyone can honestly speak for what someone may be feeling internally at a given time. perhaps when the comment was made that is how the individual felt, one cannot know. i've rolled this around in my head more than i care to admit. but i accept that people change. do i think they change overnight? no. but i do think for whatever reason they may opt to take a different path. i'm of the mindset that should be communicated honestly. it seems many want a guarantee, but life rarely provides one. i've been guilty of wanting the same myself.

regardless of what is offered, we're speaking of a power exchange and there are two people involved that are equally accountable if the offer is accepted. i don't condone making blanket statements that an individual has no intention of fulfilling, but i can't ignore the other party's unwillingness to probe deeper to ensure they were both on the same page either.

as for the departure, it has been drilled into my head countless times that people that wish to be a part of our lives don't leave. they stay and try to make things work if possible, but bailing is never done. it took me a long time to accept this without trying to justify the behavior or give credit where none was due. when i find myself seeking answers i always return to this one and find that is more than enough. a commitment always takes two.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Yes. Subs/slaves tend to be in too much of a hurry, wanting to jump in before a strong framework has a chance.


interesting because i don't think that sentiment is one-sided. i think people are apt to hurry for three reasons: impatience, desperation, or excitement. i believe the latter usually is the result of them recognizing appealing characteristics that the other person might possess. i'm specifically referencing situations that don't culminate into partnerships. other people have been successful heading off to the races and are happily attached. that has never been my experience.

porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to CaringandReal)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/16/2009 6:26:43 PM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

Yep. I think I've seen that scene played out before. Submissives want to please, so they say yes too early or promise too much, meaning it at the time because it feels so sexy and romantic and selfless, not thinking through the conseqences or imagining the long term, and yes, self-deception coupled with a (un?)healthy ego makes them believe they can do more than they can. And then when the reality, whatever it is, hits them on the head, "Oh! Hello, I must be going!"


i don't know the context of your reference but i don't think anyone can honestly speak for what someone may be feeling internally at a given time. perhaps when the comment was made that is how the individual felt, one cannot know.



ContextS, atually. Intimate observation over a span of 10-15 years of master-slave relationships forming, usually being the close confidant of the submissive who does this thing I spoke about above and who tells the entire story to me, as it occurs, usually including her reasons/motivations for doing so and how it affected her (aka what she was feeling internally). These people could have been lying to me, shrug, but they seemed quite believable at the time by all the measures, both sneaky and aboveboard, that I use to measure truth-telling. So yeah, I think I could speak for them, and quite accurately. Of course I didn't at the time, as that's not the role of a trusted confidant/advisor...but I believe I could have. :)

_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/16/2009 7:02:19 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

These people could have been lying to me, shrug, but they seemed quite believable at the time by all the measures, both sneaky and aboveboard, that I use to measure truth-telling. So yeah, I think I could speak for them, and quite accurately. Of course I didn't at the time, as that's not the role of a trusted confidant/advisor...but I believe I could have. :)


i have mentored for years and don't assume a person is being dishonest either. but i also understand how personal experiences can color a situation that may render a version of the truth according to that person's perception. without having the other party present to provide feedback it is decidedly one sided.

confessions aside i simply don't think i know everything save what the person has chosen to disclose. what i'm able to state is based on the information i've been provided, but i'm always aware that i'm getting a piece of the pie, not the whole kit and kaboodle. the only thing i know is what's floating around in my head and there are instances when i question that as well.

porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to CaringandReal)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/16/2009 8:57:25 PM   
Serephina


Posts: 2
Joined: 10/16/2009
Status: offline 		 
The most useful tool I have discovered in discerning between manipulation for the good or bad, is frankly quite simple.. Yourself.. Subs,  for the most part we are very caring, loving, giving and extremely intuitive beings. These are just a few of the great qualities that a sub possess, that allows us to give ourselves completely to our Masters/Mistresses. Subs please do not deceive yourself.. Always listen to your inner voice.. If you have any doubts or think as though "you are over-analyzing" the issue/ situation you should be able to politely discuss the issue with your Dominant.. First, never assume, but do listen to your intuition, and discuss it calmly and respectfully with your Dominant. If you are a single sub you can also by all means, apply this to any perspective Dominants as well. Actually, it is great "business" if you will, to apply this in all areas of your life, no?

~Smiles~ Serephina

I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams. 


(in reply to VeeTee)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/17/2009 12:35:33 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		There is a fine line between manipulation and intervention.

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Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/17/2009 8:37:03 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Serephina
Subs,  for the most part we are very caring, loving, giving and extremely intuitive beings.

*blinks* wow. And here I thought submissives were just humans with all the normal spread of human faults and failings. Hell, if I believed that CM was a representative of reality, I'd say they were a lot worse than the normal spread for humans.

And as I noted above, I honestly believe that I am good enough at manipulation and Carol has opened the doors to her mind enough to me that she'd have to crash pretty damned hard before she could possibly know I was being an asshat. In fact, I demand that of her as she continues to give herself to me. I do not want her holding onto threads of internal judgement and scrutiny. If her entire decision tree really does get reduced down to "what does my master want", then she is pretty much totally at my mercy. That is where we are going. The mere fact that I can actively anticipate replacing her value system with such a simple and "Jeff-oriented" thing pretty much says how vulnerable she is right now. One way to think of it is that I am actively editing out her "inner voice".


_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Serephina)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/17/2009 6:03:23 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Yes. Subs/slaves tend to be in too much of a hurry, wanting to jump in before a strong framework has a chance.


Doms too. Otherwise they wouldn't be sending out kneel bitch emails. Or making inappropriate demands at a first meet. And there are plenty of those around.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/17/2009 7:08:00 PM   
Surrenderwithin


Posts: 368
Joined: 10/8/2006
Status: offline 		I view manipulation as one of the many tools that my Master keeps in his tool box. He is wise enough to know what tool to use for what job and what desired effect. I am also aware that I should never touch or use his tools without his supervision and explicit permission.

Maggi

0 total NZ points but working on that

(in reply to VeeTee)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/18/2009 5:00:04 AM   
Santoro


Posts: 58
Joined: 9/16/2009
Status: offline 		I don’t object to being manipulated, rarely if ever I didn’t see through it but if it brought her some sense of satisfaction I went along with it never losing sight of the fact I am the one responsible for my health well being and financial stability. Granting her what she wanted and needed was what I agreed to and of course there were times where I, well confused her.

(in reply to Surrenderwithin)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Manipulation, Good & Bad - 10/19/2009 5:11:28 AM   
Serephina


Posts: 2
Joined: 10/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
*blinks* wow. And here I thought submissives were just humans with all the normal spread of human faults and failings.



~Yes, the faults and failings are another quality subs/slaves possess, I was surprised too..lol. but with Masters teaching and the use of the slaves intuition he/she will be able to overcome difficult challenges, deal with them on her/his own per se..Study what she has been taught..

Master utilizies total mind control amongst others. When I greet him, I immediately drop to my knees and begin sucking his dick and I love it as He does too! His teaching and my being intuitive to all His needs and wants allows our relatonship to work for us.. It may not work for all but it works splendid for us.. There are times I have questions for Him, not very often. But I present my questions with respect, there are things I would like to know, and if my intuition is not working with the situation, then I count on Master to talk me through a situation or issue.. Master knows when I need my ass beat, when I need to be held, or when I need to be denied. On the other hand I know when to suck His dick or when to give Him privacy and let Him deal with an issue..I have given all of me to Him mind, body, soul and spirit. Master does not raise His voice or fist at me in anger, nor does He get angry with me period.  At times all it takes is a look, and I beg for forgiveness and back on my knees I go..hehe.
It's wonderful to read that the both of you  can exist in this type of relationship as well.. Not all can, maybe they don't understand, or don't want to open their mind enough to understand, then total mind control is not for them.. It is not for everyone, but it works for some.

The ever evolving to please Master, Serephina


okay, remember the rules : Heads I win, tails you lose.
Will it squeak if I squeeze it? 


(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 35
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