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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/1/2009 7:55:14 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

The only one I can think of is the belief in Christ.

Some believe he was the son of god, some believe he was god incarnate, some believe he was a human being who was no more divine or supernatural than the rest of us....

Might as well stir this into the pot while y'all are at it.

Religion is not about belief, it's not about philosophy, it's not about metaphysics. This obsession with intellectual conformity has been a very peculiar obsession of Western Christianity. The word "faith" we generally equate these days with belief, accepting certain propositions of the creed. And when we talk about religious people, we often call them "believers," as though believing things was the main activity that they took part in... Religion is basically about doing things, behaving in a way that changes you at a profound level, not about accepting certain religious opinions. ~Karen Armstrong, speaking at the Welstar Institute, June 12, 2006.

K.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/1/2009 8:36:07 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I'm not sure the rabbit analogy really works though, as there hasn't ever been a single case of anybody with any resistance to HIV.


Actually there has:

Resistance to HIV Infection

The observation that some individuals appear to possess resistance to HIV infection or its consequences has generated a host of epidemiologic investigations to identify biological or behavioral characteristics of these individuals.




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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/1/2009 8:47:43 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Most biological weapons have been failures. The one great success was the bubonic plague infected blankets that were given to the USA indians.



That was smallpox, and there is a great deal of debate over whether this was fact or legend.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/1/2009 9:02:44 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

The observation that some individuals appear to possess resistance to HIV infection or its consequences has generated a host of epidemiologic investigations to identify biological or behavioral characteristics of these individuals.

Actually, just by coincidence, I happened to see a report on Al Jazeera tonight about an HIV vaccine that's currently under development in Thailand. So far, it's only about 30% effective. But they hope to be able to improve it. I believe the work is a joint effort of the US Army, the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, and the Thai government.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/1/2009 9:03:37 PM >

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 12:29:37 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

The only one I can think of is the belief in Christ.

Some believe he was the son of god, some believe he was god incarnate, some believe he was a human being who was no more divine or supernatural than the rest of us....

Might as well stir this into the pot while y'all are at it.

Religion is not about belief, it's not about philosophy, it's not about metaphysics. This obsession with intellectual conformity has been a very peculiar obsession of Western Christianity. The word "faith" we generally equate these days with belief, accepting certain propositions of the creed. And when we talk about religious people, we often call them "believers," as though believing things was the main activity that they took part in... Religion is basically about doing things, behaving in a way that changes you at a profound level, not about accepting certain religious opinions. ~Karen Armstrong, speaking at the Welstar Institute, June 12, 2006.

K.


Wonder what she means about doing things? Hmmm .... stoning adulterers and prostitutes, burning homosexuals at the stake, torturing heretics, dunking suspected witches.... yep, those actions will change you at a profound level.

Or how about doing what Jesus prescribed: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters and even his own life, he is not able to be my disciple." (Luke 14:26; Matt 10:37) (Gospel of Thomas #55.) Would that be something to do to change your life at a profound level? Sounds rather cultish to me.

Just wondering.

vincent

_____________________________

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 1:28:26 PM   
Hierodule


Posts: 597
Joined: 9/22/2009
Status: offline 		Nice quote Kirata,

This is something that people seem to have forgotten. My Grandmother was a very religious (Catholic) person. One  thing she always emphasized was meditation on the bible and writings of the saints. She didn't just believe, she used her mind to analyze. She was an active participant in her faith which was constantly evolving. When my uncle Dom, her youngest child, contracted HIV,and came out of the closet as a homosexual, it was very difficult fer her. As a liturgist and active member of her parish she knew what she was supposed to "believe" about homosexuality. But she spent weeks reading praying and meditating and eventually gave her son all the love and acceptance in her heart. Just before he died in 1993 she marched with him in a pride parade. Oh and  Rule all her son's had "mutilated penises" BTW ;-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Might as well stir this into the pot while y'all are at it.

Religion is not about belief, it's not about philosophy, it's not about metaphysics. This obsession with intellectual conformity has been a very peculiar obsession of Western Christianity. The word "faith" we generally equate these days with belief, accepting certain propositions of the creed. And when we talk about religious people, we often call them "believers," as though believing things was the main activity that they took part in... Religion is basically about doing things, behaving in a way that changes you at a profound level, not about accepting certain religious opinions. ~Karen Armstrong, speaking at the Welstar Institute, June 12, 2006.

K.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 2:14:39 PM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Wonder what she means about doing things? Hmmm .... stoning adulterers and prostitutes, burning homosexuals at the stake, torturing heretics, dunking suspected witches.... yep, those actions will change you at a profound level.

Those are not Christian acts. Are any of them in the New Testament? If so, they ought to be deleted from the text.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Or how about doing what Jesus prescribed: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters and even his own life, he is not able to be my disciple." (Luke 14:26; Matt 10:37) (Gospel of Thomas #55.) Would that be something to do to change your life at a profound level? Sounds rather cultish to me.

I have not studied this. It seems to be about change, though. It seems to be about dedication: dedication to the new things that he taught, to a life as a priest. To work for the salvation of all humanity instead of only being dedicated to family. It is about self-sacrifice for the greater good of all.


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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 2:28:33 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
Just before he died in 1993 she marched with him in a pride parade. Oh and  Rule all her son's had "mutilated penises" BTW ;-)

May the God of the Dead reward him, and all others who died from this virus, according to his and their merits.

I do have the suspicion that homosexuality is more prevalent among populations with circumcised penises, but unfortunately I lack the data to corroborate or deny that impression.

In any case your grandmother was not a Christian. Christians are circumcised of heart, not of penis. Those who are circumcized of penis cannot be circumcised of heart, is more or less what Saint Paul asserted - and he knew what he was talking about as he both knew the Jews and the heathens.

Also populations with mutilated penises have five to six times as much lethal congenital diseases as does the population of European Christians that do not have mutilated penises. Thus whereas the latter population is blessed with relatively perfectly born progeny, it can verily be said that the populations with mutilated penises are accursed.

I am sorry for your relatives. I predict that it will not be many generations more before their descendants start murdering adulterous women. The algorithms of evolution are implacable.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 3:52:13 PM   
Hierodule


Posts: 597
Joined: 9/22/2009
Status: offline 		Oh really? Well I don't see how my Grandma could be circumcised at all. And I would like you to tell the parish that she served as a liturgist for 35 years, the Carmalite nuns that she went on retreat with, and the Monsignor who wrote her obituary, that she was not a Christian. It is a safe bet that my grandmother could tell you more about St. Paul and his epistles in her sleep then you have learned in a life time.

< Message edited by Hierodule -- 12/2/2009 4:30:43 PM >

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 4:16:48 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
Oh really?

Yes, really. Confer to my arguments.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
Well I don't see how my Grandma could be circumscribed at all.

It is simple: draw a line around her.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
And I would like you to tell the parish that she served as a liturgist for 35 years, the Carmalite nuns that she went on retreat with, and the Monsignor who wrote her obituary, that she was not a Christian.

I already did, didn't I? Or don't them blokes and nuns read my posts?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
It is a safe bet that my grandmother could tell you more about St. Paul and his epistles in her sleep then you have learned in a life time.

There is a difference between knowing something and comprehending it.

I am by nature and partially by education a scientist. There is a lot that I do not know - but I know where and often how to look it up; and when I do, I comprehend it far better that any lay person who can quote that knowledge verbatim.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 4:19:46 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Those are not Christian acts. Are any of them in the New Testament? If so, they ought to be deleted from the text.



They were carried out in the name of Christianity, like it or not you cant change history.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 4:28:44 PM   
Hierodule


Posts: 597
Joined: 9/22/2009
Status: offline 		You are deranged. And I am blocking you. If you are what you consider a Christian to be then you are right, That is not what my grandmother was. She was actually an intelligent, sane, and compassionate person.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
Oh really?

Yes, really. Confer to my arguments.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
Well I don't see how my Grandma could be circumscribed at all.

It is simple: draw a line around her.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
And I would like you to tell the parish that she served as a liturgist for 35 years, the Carmalite nuns that she went on retreat with, and the Monsignor who wrote her obituary, that she was not a Christian.

I already did, didn't I? Or don't them blokes and nuns read my posts?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
It is a safe bet that my grandmother could tell you more about St. Paul and his epistles in her sleep then you have learned in a life time.

There is a difference between knowing something and comprehending it.

I am by nature and partially by education a scientist. There is a lot that I do not know - but I know where and often how to look it up; and when I do, I comprehend it far better that any lay person who can quote that knowledge verbatim.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 5:03:52 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


Posts: 3506
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		I'm sure he does it to wind people up, nobody in their right mind could seriously be this obsessed with circumcision.

Let as look at all the studies done linking circumcision to congenital diseases, what do you mean there are none? Not one single recognised study into this. Surely one would have been submitted by Prof. Rule? No?

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 5:06:18 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
You are deranged.

In fact, you are right about that. It says so just below my nick. I admit it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
And I am blocking you.

That is your privilege. I hope that it isn't because of the font I use? There are so many people that I have on block for using illegible fonts. Must be about a quarter of those I have on block (52, if I recall correctly), I think.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
If you are what you consider a Christian to be then you are right,

I am not religious, if that is what you mean. But I do am the product of two thousand years of evolution using the Christian evolutionary algorithm. (There was a Jew among my ancestors a couple of generations ago, but he was smart enough to convert to Christianity. I hope that the gene pool represented by his descendants by now have been mostly cleansed of the congenital defects for which he must have been a carrier.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
That is not what my grandmother was. She was actually an intelligent, sane, and compassionate person.

That is great. I ain't an intelligent, sane, and compassionate person. Fortunately for me there is Murphy's Law, which states in one variant (mine) that anyone who is not an intelligent, sane, and compassionate person, will act intelligently, sanely and compassionately; whereas the same law states that intelligent, sane, and compassionate persons will perforce act stupidly, insanely and without any compassion.

In other words: the path to Hell is paved with good intentions. Your grandmother would have done better to listen to Saint Paul.



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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 5:18:13 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Wonder what she means about doing things? Hmmm .... stoning adulterers and prostitutes, burning homosexuals at the stake, torturing heretics, dunking suspected witches.... yep, those actions will change you at a profound level.

Those are not Christian acts. Are any of them in the New Testament? If so, they ought to be deleted from the text.


They were performed by Christian churches.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Or how about doing what Jesus prescribed: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters and even his own life, he is not able to be my disciple." (Luke 14:26; Matt 10:37) (Gospel of Thomas #55.) Would that be something to do to change your life at a profound level? Sounds rather cultish to me.

Quote Rule: I have not studied this. It seems to be about change, though. It seems to be about dedication: dedication to the new things that he taught, to a life as a priest. To work for the salvation of all humanity instead of only being dedicated to family. It is about self-sacrifice for the greater good of all.


I believe you are quite wrong on this, Rule. Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher to the Jews. He preached the end of the wicked history of his time and was instructing his disciples how to prepare for the new Kingdom the Son of Man was to bring to earth before the end of their days....imminently, if not sooner. No wiggle room here. You are a scientist. Research it. I have given you citations. Jesus told his followers to abandon everything in preparation for the New Kingdom.

vincent

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 5:21:18 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
I'm sure he does it to wind people up, nobody in their right mind could seriously be this obsessed with circumcision.

I do not. I am seriously concerned for the health of the gene pool and for all those unfortunate people that are born with congenital diseases and for all those women and girls that are murdered by their relatives because of perceived affronts to their 'honor'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
Let as look at all the studies done linking circumcision to congenital diseases, what do you mean there are none? Not one single recognised study into this. Surely one would have been submitted by Prof. Rule? No?

I do not follow these things closely, but now and then some facts do surface in news reports, and of course there are the evolutionary algorithms which are as implacable as gravity.

Simply google arabs and congenital diseases and you will get sites like this one.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 5:27:20 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


Posts: 3506
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		Honour killings have nout to do with circumcision it is cultural problem relating to backwards ideas and attitudes.

If I Google 'jelly fish + beards' I'm bound to find some link between jellyfish and beards (this is how Google works it groups things together that appear together: it doesn't account for the crazy person that wrote them together.)


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 12/2/2009 5:30:21 PM >

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 5:36:38 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
I'm sure he does it to wind people up, nobody in their right mind could seriously be this obsessed with circumcision.

I do not. I am seriously concerned for the health of the gene pool and for all those unfortunate people that are born with congenital diseases and for all those women and girls that are murdered by their relatives because of perceived affronts to their 'honor'.


Rule:
The gene pool got along without you before it met you and it will get along without you after you are gone. Do not fret. Furthermore, if you are a scientist as you claim and I do not doubt you should understand the failures within the gene pool are an important aspect of the directions of evolutionary algorithms. Many, many natural abortions (miscarriages) take place because of ordinary or mutational malfunction of genes. Looking at it from the pov of the BioMass and not the individual we are only gene carriers. It is the survival of the genes that count in the long run, not the individual. However, humane your concern may be you should not wave the flag of Natural Selection at the head of your parade. In other words, evolutionarily speaking, shit happens, people die in utero.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
Let as look at all the studies done linking circumcision to congenital diseases, what do you mean there are none? Not one single recognised study into this. Surely one would have been submitted by Prof. Rule? No?

quote:

RuleI do not follow these things closely, but now and then some facts do surface in news reports, and of course there are the evolutionary algorithms which are as implacable as gravity.

Simply google arabs and congenital diseases and you will get sites like this one.


Rule:
What do you make of the medical belief that uncircumcised males carry and transmit the papaloma virus for cervical cancer?

Vincent

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 5:38:41 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
They were performed by Christian churches.

So? It does not make them Christian acts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Or how about doing what Jesus prescribed: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters and even his own life, he is not able to be my disciple." (Luke 14:26; Matt 10:37) (Gospel of Thomas #55.) Would that be something to do to change your life at a profound level? Sounds rather cultish to me.

Quote Rule: I have not studied this. It seems to be about change, though. It seems to be about dedication: dedication to the new things that he taught, to a life as a priest. To work for the salvation of all humanity instead of only being dedicated to family. It is about self-sacrifice for the greater good of all.


I believe you are quite wrong on this, Rule. Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher to the Jews. He preached the end of the wicked history of his time and was instructing his disciples how to prepare for the new Kingdom the Son of Man was to bring to earth before the end of their days....imminently, if not sooner. No wiggle room here. You are a scientist. Research it. I have given you citations. Jesus told his followers to abandon everything in preparation for the New Kingdom.


Perhaps you are right. I have read the Bible only once, 22 years ago.

However, I do not recall Jesus saying at any time that all humans would be annihilated. If he did any of those things that you say he did (what verses and books, please?), then I suggest that your interpretation is at fault.

I can supply other interpretations. (I do not know if they are correct, for I do not know what you cited exactly.)

He preached the end of the wicked history of his time = He preached the fullfillment of the Law, and thereby the end of it.

was instructing his disciples how to prepare for the new Kingdom the Son of Man was to bring to earth before the end of their days....imminently, if not sooner. = He was introducing a new religious paradigm, in truth a new reign, a new Kingdom

Jesus told his followers to abandon everything in preparation for the New Kingdom. = He was preaching to poor people, telling them that there is no sin (or something like that). He wanted apostles, priests to spread his good news. Of course such people would have to dedicate themselves to that purpose, to establishing themselves the New Kingdom. And they did.


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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 5:55:36 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Just to interject - that populations that practice circumcision often experience higher than average levels of congenital birth defects and genetically inherited vulnerabilities to certain medical conditions is established.

However, this is not due to some "curse", "judgment" or other supernatural cause, at least as far as we may be assured by genetic science. It is rather than such populations tend to limit marriage of their members outside the population, preferring instead to marry sons and daughters within the population.

This leads to an exacerbation in terms of frequency in naturally occurring faulty genes in the offspring, leading to not only higher incidence of inherited defects but also vulnerability to certain medical conditions. The same situation occurs in any population which, for reasons of religion, culture, geographical isolation or otherwise is obliged to practice what is inbreeding, albeit within a larger group than we might normally ascribe to that word, regardless of whether circumcision is practiced or not.

E

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