RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world.

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. (Full Version)

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vincentML -> RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. (12/4/2009 2:25:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML I have not seen your data or the source of it regarding congenital disease in the Muslim and Jewish populations other than I recall you suggested some large difference vs Christian populations. I would like to have a more specific indication to which populations you refer since all are worldwide, and to which time span as well. I would like such data as well. Perhaps a geneticist may have more information. I am merely repeating news items which I happened to read. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML If your data relies upon the term "congenital diseases" your argument appears somewhat faulty with respect to gene pools. Congenital diseases are not the same as inherited diseases. Congenital diseases, those that are present at birth by definition, may be the result of prenatal environmental hazards and a large majority are suspected as such. The appearance of inherited defective phenotypes at birth are to a much lesser degree than would be expected from your sweeping generalizations. I invite your response to my argument. My mistake. I was corrected in a previous thread that congenital was the same as inherited, so ever after I used congenital for the Dutch 'aangeboren' (an inherited disease you are born with). Wherever I used the word congenital I intended diseases due to mutations that people are born with. So, basically what you seem to be saying is that all of your postings and all of your arguments and sweeping generalizations are based upon absolutely no data or population studies and a misinterpretation by you of the difference between inherited and congenital diseases. I think your house of cards has collapsed, Rule. There seems to be no point in carrying on a debate with someone whose major premises are lacking or faulty by his own admission. You may pretend to carry on your arguments but we know now that any further debate by you is hollow. Vincent

vincentML -> RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. (12/4/2009 2:40:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML This is a suspiciously Lamarckian statement... I don't intend to enter this debate, but just for your information... Epigenetics 1 For years, genes have been considered the one and only way biological traits could be passed down through generations of organisms. Not anymore... This is a vindication of sorts for 18th century naturalist Jean Baptiste Lamarck. Epigenetics 2 Research into epigenetics has shown that environmental factors affect characteristics of organisms... new characteristics are generated and passed on via epigenetics, subject to the same mechanisms of evolution as those with a purely genetic origin. K. Well, K, anything is possible in the scientific method, theory is always subject to new information and challenge, and such is welcome. A quick glance at the sources you provided reveals that epigenetic activities occur at the molecular level during the development stages of an individual and may only be passed on if they somehow effect the DNA sequence. Maybe I misread it. Hardly seems to justify Lamarck's description of the giraff's inheritence of a long neck by stretching to reach higher leaves in the trees. There may be something to epigenetics to increase our understanding of the process of hereditary, and that would be exciting news. Thank you. Vincent

mnottertail -> RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. (12/4/2009 2:53:41 PM)
meh, a plague on both your testaments. Mercutio

Rule -> RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. (12/4/2009 3:05:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Certain other diseases, such as diabetes mellitus, hypertension, and some types of cancer, often run in families, which suggests that heredity is at least partially responsible for their development. It does not suggest such at all. Do not be fooled by scientific confabulations. Partially. Pfff! quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Congenital diseases, or birth defects, are disorders that are present at birth. Some are hereditary, others develop while a baby is in its mother's uterus or during the process of delivery. For example, if the mother contracts German measles, or rubella, during the early stages of pregnancy, her child may be born with heart defects, eye cataracts, deafness, or mental retardation. Use of alcohol during pregnancy can cause fetal alcohol syndrome, characterized by mental and physical retardation. Abnormal development of any body part in a fetus may produce a congenital defect; for example, if walls that separate the chambers of the heart fail to form completely, the baby is born with congenital heart disease. Well, since the fetus in all of these cases lacks the alleles that would protect it from such damages, even without mutations having occurred, it most certainly has alleles that have proven to be harmful to its development. So yes, these are defects caused (in the sense of not being prevented) by inherited genes.

Rule -> RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. (12/4/2009 3:12:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML So, basically what you seem to be saying is that all of your postings and all of your arguments and sweeping generalizations are based upon absolutely no data or population studies and a misinterpretation by you of the difference between inherited and congenital diseases. I think your house of cards has collapsed, Rule. There seems to be no point in carrying on a debate with someone whose major premises are lacking or faulty by his own admission. You may pretend to carry on your arguments but we know now that any further debate by you is hollow. tsk, tsk. I am a supergenius. I had sufficient information, however tenuous, to have constructed a model that from one cause explains a lot of apparently unrelated mysteries. That is good enough for me. If it isn't for an ordinary person, then that is too bad for them. I won't shed a tear about their protestations that they do not get it.

Rule -> RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. (12/4/2009 3:18:30 PM)
I have read the first epigenetic article. I seem to recall to have read it before. DNA methylation and it being passed on to progeny is nothing new. I think that I read about that in the 1980s, either in New Scientist, or some journal like Nature or Science. Very interesting, I thought at the time, and I still think so. I am not quite convinced by at least some of the other epigenetics named in that first article.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. (12/4/2009 3:44:32 PM)
Any one who claims that the benefits of inbreeding outweigh the negatives is a super-moron.

Rule -> RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. (12/4/2009 4:10:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy Any one who claims that the benefits of inbreeding outweigh the negatives is a super-moron. That depends on the benefits and on the negatives. For example: in my opinion nearly all new mutations, including beneficial mutations, are recessives. Without inbreeding, those recessive beneficial mutations may go lost due to genetic drift. By inbreeding individuals homozygous for these recessive beneficial alleles may be born in whom the new beneficial phenotype presents and such people will have an increased reproductive success, thereby increasing the frequency of those recessive alleles in the population and thereby also increasing the chance that new mutations will be selected for that cause the recessive alleles to become dominant alleles. Animal and vegetable and flower breeders use this principle all the time. So that is a huge added benefit to the first benefit of eliminating lethal recessive alleles from the gene pool. A downside of inbreeding is that such populations become extremely vulnerable to lots of diseases; though very much resistant to a few others. Except for these effects, inbreeding has no effect on gene frequencies. If the gene pool is a pack of cards, then without natural selection (such as caused by for example disease), without sexual selection and without genetic drift, the frequency of the red and black cards in the stack will remain the same, whether people inbreed or not.

vincentML -> RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. (12/4/2009 5:57:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML So, basically what you seem to be saying is that all of your postings and all of your arguments and sweeping generalizations are based upon absolutely no data or population studies and a misinterpretation by you of the difference between inherited and congenital diseases. I think your house of cards has collapsed, Rule. There seems to be no point in carrying on a debate with someone whose major premises are lacking or faulty by his own admission. You may pretend to carry on your arguments but we know now that any further debate by you is hollow. tsk, tsk. I am a supergenius. I had sufficient information, however tenuous, to have constructed a model that from one cause explains a lot of apparently unrelated mysteries. That is good enough for me. If it isn't for an ordinary person, then that is too bad for them. I won't shed a tear about their protestations that they do not get it. LMAO! You have no data base. You have no population studies. You fail to distinguish between inherited and congenital illness. Your entire edifice is fraudulent. Madmen have been known to construct models in a similar fashion unwedded to reality. It is sad you waste so much time for other members on these boards. Vincent

vincentML -> RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. (12/4/2009 6:05:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy Any one who claims that the benefits of inbreeding outweigh the negatives is a super-moron. You are wasting your time, Will. Rule has admitted he has no population data base and he has confused inherited illnesses with congenital illnesses. He has built his model out of whole cloth. It is all based on fiction. He admits it. Read his post #605. Vincent

Rule -> RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. (12/4/2009 6:26:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Rule has ... confused inherited illnesses with congenital illnesses. No, I have not. I have all along referred to inherited illnesses due to deleterious mutations as congenital. That was a linguistic error as anyone could have deduced from the specific context. It does not invalidate the subject discussed of deleterious mutations, nor my arguments.

vincentML -> RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. (12/4/2009 6:38:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Rule has ... confused inherited illnesses with congenital illnesses. No, I have not. I have all along referred to inherited illnesses due to deleterious mutations as congenital. That was a linguistic error as anyone could have deduced from the specific context. It does not invalidate the subject discussed of deleterious mutations, nor my arguments. You have no population studies for your sweeping generalizations. Your model is a fictitious house of cards. Vincent

Kirata -> RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. (12/4/2009 6:57:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML You fail to distinguish between inherited and congenital illness. Whether or not you believe in God, you really should at least consider believing in dictionaries. The word congenital refers to: a condition present at birth, whether inherited or caused by the environment And, I might add, this inconvenient detail was pointed out previously in this thread. Wanna go for three times? K.

vincentML -> RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. (12/4/2009 7:29:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML You fail to distinguish between inherited and congenital illness. Whether or not you believe in God, you really should at least consider believing in dictionaries. The word congenital refers to: a condition present at birth, whether inherited or caused by the environment And, I might add, this was already pointed out previously in this thread. K. Exactly, but Rule admits he considered all the congenital anomolies as inherited to fit his imagined model. He even referred to the Spartans leaving defective babies exposed to Nature, showing he made no distinction between the two modes of birth illnesses. There are 4000 known inherited human diseases. I so not recall him assigning any in significant number to the circumcised populations with whom he is so fascinated. In addition, I repeat he has built a model based on no population studies and no data. That is not the way Science works. His entire construct is a figment of his imagination which he justifies by proclaiming his supergenius status in a rather god-like fashion. Follow him if you wish and defend him if you wish. But for the topic he pursued there is a clear distinction between inherited and congenital disease. It is not a linguistic game. There are too many environmental factors to be considered involving the populations he distinguished. That is the fallacy in his hollow model. That and the fact he has no population studies to support his conclusions. The whole thing is an invention he admits in his supergenius mind. You wish to defend that? Meh! Good luck to you. Vincent

Kirata -> RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. (12/4/2009 7:51:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata The word congenital refers to: a condition present at birth, whether inherited or caused by the environment Exactly, but Rule admits... Exactly? quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML there is a clear distinction between inherited and congenital disease Rule admits? quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Rule has ... confused inherited illnesses with congenital illnesses. No, I have not. I have all along referred to inherited illnesses due to deleterious mutations as congenital. I take it all back, a dictionary won't help you. K.

Rule -> RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. (12/5/2009 2:34:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML In addition, I repeat he has built a model based on no population studies and no data. That is not the way Science works. His entire construct is a figment of his imagination which he justifies by proclaiming his supergenius status in a rather god-like fashion. That is why I am a supergenius and ordinary scientists are not. I apply well known scientific principles to solve scientific mysteries, to arrive at (scientific) truth; in this case I apply evolution theory. In this thread no-one has yet shown my comprehension of the evolutionary principles to be at fault. Whereas I have shown the comprehension of evolution theory of a few other posters to be at fault. What I do is conceptual science, which is the beginning of the scientific process. I provide the new paradigm. The question is: how many people can recognize supergenius? How many other people will at first accuse him of being a crazy loon? I once read a summary about the process of accepting new scientific discoveries. I will describe the gist of it. 1. He is wrong, the crazy idiot. 2. Most of what he says is wrong, I have always said so. 3. Well, maybe some of what he says is right, but I never said that some of it wasn't right. 4. He may be more right than wrong, but he hasn't considered... 5. He is right. Everybody knows it and I have said so from the first moment. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML There are too many environmental factors to be considered involving the populations he distinguished. Like the fact that there are no ice bears in Antarctica? There is only one evolutionary significant difference between populations that circumcise the penis of their males and those that do not: the presence or lack of foreskin. All else is obfuscation. Ordinary people are prone to obfuscation; supergenius is not.

vincentML -> RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. (12/5/2009 5:33:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule That is why I am a supergenius and ordinary scientists are not. You present a theory of genetic inferiority of certain populations. You offer sweeping generalizations admittedly without supporting population studies or data of any kind. You fail to take account of environmental factors such as poverty, hunger, or disease which account for a great deal of congenital malformations. By your own admission your model is a construct of your “super genius” imagination. What you have given us is an ugly variant of racial slander that has been repudiated historically. It is pseudo science at its worst. Vincent

vincentML -> RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. (12/5/2009 5:38:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata I take it all back, a dictionary won't help you. K.[/font][/size] Kirata, if you wish to defend Rule's pseudo science and historical racial slander it is your choice. However, it is embarrassing for you to rely upon a dictionary. Vincent

Rule -> RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. (12/5/2009 7:11:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML You present a theory of genetic inferiority of certain populations. I have never said anything in this thread about genetic inferiority of certain populations. In fact, I have said that there are genetic benefits to inbreeding. That you add a racist slant to what I say when you vainly attempt to comprehend and interpret it, merely indicates that you yourself are a racist. I do not care about your racist opinions. I only care about truth. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML You offer sweeping generalizations admittedly without supporting population studies or data of any kind. So? I am always right. Either choose to follow my directions and prosper, or do not and blindly suffer the consequences. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML You fail to take account of environmental factors such as poverty, hunger, or disease which account for a great deal of congenital malformations. Those are not pertinent factors as in areas where both kinds of populations occur, they suffer to the same degree from such factors and yet there is a six times difference in the occurrence of inherited defects. Please stop boring me with ill-considered arguments. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML By your own admission your model is a construct of your “super genius” imagination. So? In some ways having a supergenius mind and imagination is far better than being dependent upon the phantasmagorial confabulations of error prone mediocre minds. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML What you have given us is an ugly variant of racial slander that has been repudiated historically. It is pseudo science at its worst. What I have provided is a means to prevent racism from occurring. In the theological lingo of this thread: if the Divine arranges for one the opportunity to die from sexually transmitted diseases, then do not oppose the Divine by removing foreskins. Muslims would say: "Submit to the will of God" - which they obviously and sacrilegiously do not when they remove the foreskins of their males.

vincentML -> RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. (12/5/2009 7:54:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML You fail to take account of environmental factors such as poverty, hunger, or disease which account for a great deal of congenital malformations. quote: Rule: Those are not pertinent factors as in areas where both kinds of populations occur, they suffer to the same degree from such factors and yet there is a six times difference in the occurrence of inherited defects. Sweeping genralizations with no supporting data. Are you sure it is six times and not five times? Where is your data? What are your sources? Have you factored out economic and class differences? Have you even identified the areas of reference? No, you have not. No, you have no studies. You invent numbers to suit your imagined super genius. Your postings are counterfeit for their lack of substance. You are a counterfeit "scientist." quote: I have never said anything in this thread about genetic inferiority of certain populations. In fact, I have said that there are genetic benefits to inbreeding. You said there are genetic benefits to inbreeding in small, island populations while simultaneously slandering Jews and Muslims in toto. Seems racist to me. Racism comes in many sly disguises. Yours is not so well hidden behind the phony facade of supergenius and pseudoscience. Vincent

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