RE: Punishment Dynamics

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sweetobedience1 -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/20/2009 5:51:51 PM)
For sure, everyone is lucky who finds someone they are compatible with. In my situation, I never said no, but I needed guidance with not crying and trying be too close to him. My Dom would not let me tell him I loved him, touch him in public, or allow me to be sad in his presence. (among other things of course) This was all very hard for me, which is one part of why he ordered these things. (One, not all) He cheated on me constantly and that... that was hard for me, too. I was good at hiding my pain, but sometimes I couldn't. That makes me weak...trust me, I know...but that is what it is. I was never punished for forgetting to clean the house or telling him no to anything at all. He even told me to stop my eating disorder that I had from age 16-23, and I did right there. We ended because he did not have control over his own emotions, and loving me was too hard for him. (His words) But, that's a tale for another time.

porcelaine -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/20/2009 5:56:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl No, I'm not. I SAID that he does a better job himself. I don't suggest things ......I SAY them. yes of course. you assert yourself in keystrokes. how very grand of you. this would be meaningful if i placed value on what was "said." now i believe jeff kindly requested that this ridiculous exchange be tabled. porcelaine

leadership527 -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/20/2009 5:57:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP What do you do when the commands conflict with the need to deepen the relationship? You've said you do this because it helps you both be better people and have a better relationship, stronger love bonds. I'm not sure I understand you Des. Or, more accurately, without me making some mistake, I don't understand how this situation would occur. quote: But you've also said you could easily command her to have sex with someone who made her skin crawl just to prove that you have total control and that it isn't her body, but yours. What happens when the need to prove that you do have this control is something that would weaken her love for you? That would make the relationship have problems as opposed to being stronger. Ahhhhhh... OK. You have misunderstood something that I've written. In general, I'm not a big believer in tests. Mostly I see the need to test as a weak-kneed dom thing, saying more about the ego of the dom than anything about the sub/slave. It is true that I can command carol to [insert command she detests here]. I want the authority to do such things because they are included in the word "total". I do not want Carol hanging onto little threads of artifical safety in her own head.. "Oh, but he would never command me to do xxx". Nope, I want her to let go and be mine. So yeah, we talk about things like "What if I made you blow some guy you dislike." Now, the next step after talk is, what if I actually did it? Even worse, what if Carol did not understand the reasons or if she did understand them, she disagreed with them? The answer is that she obeys or she isn't mine by the definition I'm using. quote: Because when there are more than one motive in play, there are likely to be conflicts. There are ALWAYS lots of motives in play. My job is to sort them out and weigh them in such a way as to maximize the happiness between us. As I've often said, sometimes that rolls her way and sometimes mine. But I certainly hope that I never lose sight of the promises that I have made her and, for that matter, my own sense of honor and integrity to such a degree that I just start making Carol's life a living hell because I can.

agirl -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/20/2009 6:04:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: porcelaine quote: ORIGINAL: agirl No, I'm not. I SAID that he does a better job himself. I don't suggest things ......I SAY them. yes of course. you assert yourself in keystrokes. how very grand of you. this would be meaningful if i placed value on what was "said." now i believe jeff kindly requested that this ridiculous exchange be tabled. porcelaine *I'm not very grand actually. Who'd think?......but I'm used to being seen* as something I'm not.......chuckles softly. agirl**

Roselaure -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/20/2009 6:07:15 PM)
I've been giving the whole misbehavior/punishment thing some though lately. On the one hand, I am a good girl, a pleaser for certain. To please and be found pleasing to my Master is a major driver for me. I do not like to be punished (although He has never punished me), and I would never do anything intentionally to get punishment. On the other hand, there is no denying the major frisson of excitement I get when I hear that stern Daddy tone, or that raised eyebrow that says, "Tell me you did not just say that?" It is , I think, a combination of apprehension that he is displeased and a jolt of adrenalin as I jump to correct whatever it is that I have done, with the slightest element of sexual excitement. My Master knows that I don't misbehave on purpose and figures if being reprimanded makes me wet, well, that something good came out of it.

ranja -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/21/2009 2:48:25 AM)
FR with us it works because He is not a talking type of person about intimate things... whereas i am, i like to talk about all sort of intimate things really... nit picky... so if i am on a mission to talk Him in or out of something or if i want Him to understand something and go about it in about 3 different ways.... well He might just get so annoyed, and He really does not want to get into a 'debate' about anything really especially not if he feels i am trying to direct and He will experience me as a nagging wench really.. so then He will shut me up with severe tickling or a slap... or He will pull my hair hard and force me down some and tell me He has had enough now... Same if i speak out of turn or am behaving bitchy, short sharp pain corrects me. Sometimes i might forget myself and hit Him back in a reflex... (or even because i am so obstinate) but He will always respond with a harder hit... and He is the strongest so He always wins... sometimes i think i do not like it... but i do really

DesFIP -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/21/2009 7:06:01 AM)
But if she makes it clear that having sex with someone else will not maximize your happiness, but lessen it, then isn't she still knowing in her head that you won't make her do this? I'm not sure how you can have two opposites hold true at the same time. Either you make her do it so she knows that she doesn't have any control, which risks her giving you control in the future, or worse ending the relationship if the emotional fallout is too great or you do let her set a boundary that you cannot do?

Andalusite -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/21/2009 8:26:11 AM)
A few people have brought up being turned on by punishment, or being able to separate punishment from play without fear or guilt bleeding over. I was punished twice in three years, in my last relationship. One time, I enjoyed it and felt guilty about it, and about further play with him, for a couple of weeks afterward. The previous time, he went hard enough to scare me a bit, and again, the effects lingered. It's fine with me if you can separate things, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect that everyone can do so. In my current relationship, my Master has authority to punish me as he sees fit. We discussed my previous experiences, and he feels that non-pain-related punishments (chores, writing assignments, etc.) are more likely to be effective. It's pretty tricky to get the pain level right when I am a masochist, and I've been conditioned to enjoy pain that doesn't feel physically good, because I link it to submission to him.

leadership527 -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/21/2009 8:54:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP But if she makes it clear that having sex with someone else will not maximize your happiness, but lessen it, then isn't she still knowing in her head that you won't make her do this? Carol: In a way, "yes". I certainly know that he will take my thoughts into strong consideration. Thus far, he has certainly been better than I am at making a very happy relationship between us. In the end, I could speculate a million horror scenarios. But I could also speculate situations in which he chose to do this for MY benefit and at cost to him. Why would I go down all the evil paths when he's never demonstrated such behavior in the past? In the end, you have to remember that this is all about building trust between us. And to do that, the situations have to be spooky somehow or no growth can happen. That's what it's all about (despite baseless claims of hokey-pokey advocates everywhere ). The bottom line is that I trust him to turn me into a poly-friendly, kinky, whatever. Hell, I turned him into a democrat. Really, in all seriousness, the bottom line is that I trust him to meddle with my internal values and worldview. As long as that trust is there, then what's the concern? Jeff: I think the part you're missing here Des is that Carol and I are not in some sort of competition and there's no zero-sum game in play. She isn't giving things to me and I'm not taking them. I have said, "Here is a way that we could be even tighter as a couple." Predictably, she's accepted that vision and is now working with me to make it happen -- INSIDE HER OWN HEAD.. not simply with outward obedience. So she's reworking her value system and worldview to match the challenge I've laid before her. It is certainly possible that, in the end, she won't be able to do so (although at this point, I'm about 95% sure she will... in fact she's virtually there). If it turned out to be not possible, then it is "not possible". And unlike that ridiculous can't vs. won't thread, I have a very clear grip on reality. If I commanded Carol to go stand on the front porch and flap her arms till she took flight, she'd go flap her arms, but if she failed to take flight, I wouldn't exactly see that as disobedience. So in the end, there is the statement of my trust in her. Trust goes both ways in a M/s dynamic.

lovingpet -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/21/2009 12:20:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP But if she makes it clear that having sex with someone else will not maximize your happiness, but lessen it, then isn't she still knowing in her head that you won't make her do this? Carol: In a way, "yes". I certainly know that he will take my thoughts into strong consideration. Thus far, he has certainly been better than I am at making a very happy relationship between us. In the end, I could speculate a million horror scenarios. But I could also speculate situations in which he chose to do this for MY benefit and at cost to him. Why would I go down all the evil paths when he's never demonstrated such behavior in the past? In the end, you have to remember that this is all about building trust between us. And to do that, the situations have to be spooky somehow or no growth can happen. That's what it's all about (despite baseless claims of hokey-pokey advocates everywhere ). The bottom line is that I trust him to turn me into a poly-friendly, kinky, whatever. Hell, I turned him into a democrat. Really, in all seriousness, the bottom line is that I trust him to meddle with my internal values and worldview. As long as that trust is there, then what's the concern? Jeff: I think the part you're missing here Des is that Carol and I are not in some sort of competition and there's no zero-sum game in play. She isn't giving things to me and I'm not taking them. I have said, "Here is a way that we could be even tighter as a couple." Predictably, she's accepted that vision and is now working with me to make it happen -- INSIDE HER OWN HEAD.. not simply with outward obedience. So she's reworking her value system and worldview to match the challenge I've laid before her. It is certainly possible that, in the end, she won't be able to do so (although at this point, I'm about 95% sure she will... in fact she's virtually there). If it turned out to be not possible, then it is "not possible". And unlike that ridiculous can't vs. won't thread, I have a very clear grip on reality. If I commanded Carol to go stand on the front porch and flap her arms till she took flight, she'd go flap her arms, but if she failed to take flight, I wouldn't exactly see that as disobedience. So in the end, there is the statement of my trust in her. Trust goes both ways in a M/s dynamic. I very strongly identify with what the two of you are doing. I would feel quite angry if I were punished when I was doing the internal work to be able to move in the direction my partner is leading. It isn't a lack of obedience or trust. There's groundwork to be laid when there are certain matters on the table. My partner is not one to want to reap the benefits without putting in the work. There are things I have come to accept and part of his vision that have requried him to teach me about a whole other conception of things. He has had to demonstrate an alignment with my own morality, ethics, and worldview and in some cases close the gaps between them. He has had to support me when it came time to let go and accept something and all the ramifications involved in doing so. I don't understand why working toward acceptance and/or obedience is seen as a bad thing. Even a computer may need a few moments to process a command from the user. A human can't have the same relative luxury? Most of my obedience and following is automatic. Some is a little reluctant and slow, but gaining speed and sureness. Other times, though it is more like planning a 2 month voyage around the world. There's a lot to consider and lots of provisions, back up plans, and oddities to be incorporated in the final plan. The plan is his and I will follow him on the trek and I know it will be an incredible adventure. My part is to understand, have a readiness for what is to come, and know my own role in it all. Maybe I should beat my travel agent in March when I haven't gotten to execute my summer vacation yet! LOL I will admit to just jumping into this thread more or less feet first, but I know what so many of the old contentions are. Automatic, brainless submission, though it has a nice ring in fantasyland, isn't all that practical. I am still human. I trust my partner. I want to follow wherever he leads. I want to obey and please him in all things. I believe all of these things can coexist. I am probably not on point with where the discussion is, but it seems to be accurate for this particular excerpt. I like a real life, flesh and blood relationship in which I can be two real people living out some of our wildest dreams. lovingpet

CreativeDominant -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/21/2009 12:51:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP But if she makes it clear that having sex with someone else will not maximize your happiness, but lessen it, then isn't she still knowing in her head that you won't make her do this? Carol: In a way, "yes". I certainly know that he will take my thoughts into strong consideration. Thus far, he has certainly been better than I am at making a very happy relationship between us. In the end, I could speculate a million horror scenarios. But I could also speculate situations in which he chose to do this for MY benefit and at cost to him. Why would I go down all the evil paths when he's never demonstrated such behavior in the past? In the end, you have to remember that this is all about building trust between us. And to do that, the situations have to be spooky somehow or no growth can happen. That's what it's all about (despite baseless claims of hokey-pokey advocates everywhere ). The bottom line is that I trust him to turn me into a poly-friendly, kinky, whatever. Hell, I turned him into a democrat. Really, in all seriousness, the bottom line is that I trust him to meddle with my internal values and worldview. As long as that trust is there, then what's the concern? Jeff: I think the part you're missing here Des is that Carol and I are not in some sort of competition and there's no zero-sum game in play. She isn't giving things to me and I'm not taking them. I have said, "Here is a way that we could be even tighter as a couple." Predictably, she's accepted that vision and is now working with me to make it happen -- INSIDE HER OWN HEAD.. not simply with outward obedience. So she's reworking her value system and worldview to match the challenge I've laid before her. It is certainly possible that, in the end, she won't be able to do so (although at this point, I'm about 95% sure she will... in fact she's virtually there). If it turned out to be not possible, then it is "not possible". And unlike that ridiculous can't vs. won't thread, I have a very clear grip on reality. If I commanded Carol to go stand on the front porch and flap her arms till she took flight, she'd go flap her arms, but if she failed to take flight, I wouldn't exactly see that as disobedience. So in the end, there is the statement of my trust in her. Trust goes both ways in a M/s dynamic. Don't fall over in shock Jeff but I have to say that a lot...though not all...of what was stated in this post are things I can agree with and hope to have.

DavanKael -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/21/2009 2:10:41 PM)
Interesting array of responses thus far, glad that this thread is proving useful for some. :> Davan

leadership527 -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/21/2009 4:47:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovingpet Most of my obedience and following is automatic. Some is a little reluctant and slow, but gaining speed and sureness. Other times, though it is more like planning a 2 month voyage around the world. My own sense is that this largely depends on how "spooky" (to use Carol's word) the change being requested is. I totally agree with you that humans require processing time to make large changes... at least all the ones I've met, myself included. To me, acknowledging this is not weak mastery, it's having both eyes clearly on the subject at hand. Others, of course, see it differently. Ain't chocolate and vanilla grand? quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant Don't fall over in shock Jeff but I have to say that a lot...though not all...of what was stated in this post are things I can agree with and hope to have. Thank you. I'm truly flattered.

agirl -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/21/2009 5:36:21 PM)
History has shown me that if I don't do enough thinking before...I end up doing it after. Sometimes it's really the best thing, FOR ME, to leap and just get on with it, and sometimes it's best to have a good old think through first. I can talk myself into corners at times.....and I can also throw myself into things with gay abandon......I can fuss and fret over something really quite stupid and the next moment make some major decision with apparent lack of thought. I still find it amuses me that I can take a huge amount of time deciding where to plant something in the garden and yet be able to decide to sell the house relatively easily. Sometimes you just know stuff and there's no rhyme or reason to it, apart from just knowing. And sometimes I just know that if I don't jump, and do too much thinking, there'll be trillions of sensible reasons NOT to bound off. agirl

Aileen1968 -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/21/2009 8:17:35 PM)
I don't think I've ever been punished by him. I was spanked once for forgetting something very important. I hated that feeling and do everything in my power to never have that happen again. If I disappoint him in any way, he lets me know by talking to me. We both prefer the beatings to be purely for our enjoyment and not for discipline.

DomImus -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/22/2009 6:23:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I'm not here to be involved in a constant power struggle. Someone either wants to submit or they don't. I'm not going to bang My head against the wall in a battle of wills all of the time. I have better things to do. It's not terribly often that I agree with your posts but this one I agree with wholeheartedly. Well said. To the OP, we do not have a punishment dynamic in our relationship. Probably a good thing. Our normal play constitutes activity that would qualify as punishment in certain relationships that include a punishment dynamic. I'd be at a loss to dream up something suitable and then it would probably end up on my short list or regular favorites.

lovingpet -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/22/2009 7:42:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 quote: ORIGINAL: lovingpet Most of my obedience and following is automatic. Some is a little reluctant and slow, but gaining speed and sureness. Other times, though it is more like planning a 2 month voyage around the world. My own sense is that this largely depends on how "spooky" (to use Carol's word) the change being requested is. I totally agree with you that humans require processing time to make large changes... at least all the ones I've met, myself included. To me, acknowledging this is not weak mastery, it's having both eyes clearly on the subject at hand. Others, of course, see it differently. Ain't chocolate and vanilla grand? And I was aiming mostly toward those really, really "spooky" things because I think this is where the most misunderstanding, frustration, and hurt feelings can happen. I think the dominant has got to be aware of just how difficult a command is for the submissive at his/her feet and really take that into account before determining something is disobedience and taking things over the edge. If my partner were to punish me right about now, it would destroy everything we have been so careful to build. Instead he chooses patience and encouragement. Thank goodness! lovingpet

CreativeDominant -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/22/2009 1:34:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Falkenstein If your sub had a bad day and somehow misbehave she shall not bring it to you, after all its not your fault. But when you have a bad day, are you able of perfectly insulating her from it? Because otherwise, and I may be misreading you, you are putting higher exigence levels upon your subs are you are willing to apply to yourself. Be seeing you, Henry No...there is no may about it, you are misreading me. My submissive can bring any sort of bad, horrible, shitty day to me she wants. She can have my shoulder to vent on or to cry on or to rant against others. What she CANNOT do is use me as the "punching bag" in place of the ones who caused her bad day.

IronBear -> RE: Punishment Dynamics (10/22/2009 4:22:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl History has shown me that if I don't do enough thinking before...I end up doing it after. Sometimes it's really the best thing, FOR ME, to leap and just get on with it, and sometimes it's best to have a good old think through first. I can talk myself into corners at times.....and I can also throw myself into things with gay abandon......I can fuss and fret over something really quite stupid and the next moment make some major decision with apparent lack of thought. I still find it amuses me that I can take a huge amount of time deciding where to plant something in the garden and yet be able to decide to sell the house relatively easily. Sometimes you just know stuff and there's no rhyme or reason to it, apart from just knowing. And sometimes I just know that if I don't jump, and do too much thinking, there'll be trillions of sensible reasons NOT to bound off. agirl You are I are on the same page here lass. I generally follow my gut feeling and have no rational, logical or even non occult explanation for half of what I do. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and will handle the consequences and if I'm right it appear to be a stroke of genius. I enjoy most people underestimating me, takes pressure of me too, especially some young wanker wanting to push an old fart about (happen last night) and he ends up in hospital with a police guard.

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