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Ayn Rand you big Sub!!! - 10/24/2009 12:20:14 AM   
SilentSpark


Posts: 36
Joined: 8/16/2009
Status: offline 		OK... Please don't tell me I'm the only one who get turn on reading the Fountainhead. I mean... the idealism and art and totally dominate hero Howard Roark and his relationship with perfect sub Dominique... Even Ayn Rand herself admitted, Dominque is the woman for someone like Howard Roark (AKA perfect sub for perfect dom). Is that how you see human relationship, Ms. Rand? LOL...if nothing else, Ms Rand definitely has a huge rape fantasy, just look at the first sex scene between Roark and Dominque. and the time when Dominque went to Roarks apartment, and telling him she'll try her best to destroy him, I was completely in shock when I read it. How could something like this slipped into general public and no one scream "KINKY~~~~"

This is more kinky than cuffs and ropes and all that leather combined!!! this mental kinky~~~ I have always wondering why a strong woman like Ayn Rand end up in a long lasting relationship with some unknown actor, and from her notes I've read, she really loved him. Now that I think of it, he's probably a huge Dom!!!

OK OK... Don't get me wrong, I love the book for its idealism, for its romanticism, for the tight writing style, for the vivid characters, and the underlying philosophical ideas. But numerous people have written endless essays about it, I'm sure they can do a better job in literary analysis.

I just want to say, if there's something called "intellectual porn", this is it.

Thank you Ayn Rand~~~ haha, your book is totally genius on multiple levels, we don't have books like this nowadays... Now I'll move on to Atlas Shrugged.

< Message edited by SilentSpark -- 10/24/2009 12:23:44 AM >
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RE: Ayn Rand you big Sub!!! - 10/24/2009 4:25:50 AM   
Level


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Status: offline 		If Rand indulged in humiliation play, did her man dress up like Karl Marx?

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to SilentSpark)
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RE: Ayn Rand you big Sub!!! - 10/24/2009 6:35:37 AM   
Lucienne


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Status: offline 		Well, if you thought Howard Roark was hot, you're going to love John Galt. I, too, was surprised by the explicitness of the "rape" scene in the Fountainhead, given the time that it was published. I didn't find it exciting because I didn't think it was written well. I have a very low tolerance for mediocrity in written descriptions of sex scenes. It's been nearly 20 years since I first read the Fountainhead, but if memory serves, I laughed at the scene because it was so overwrought.

As for Ayn Rand as sub... if so, she'd belong in the topping from the bottom Hall of Fame. Having read two biographies of her and numerous other sources, I'd say she was definitely a Domme. She didn't go for super-achieving men in real life. She went for pretty boys who could worship her. Her husband was certainly that way. And then she willed her way into polyamory, by convincing her husband, Nathanial Branden, and Branden's wife that it was important for her and (much younger) Branden to have a sexual relationship to further their intellectual and emotional growth. She collected subs with ease, they're politely referred to as acolytes. Alan Greenspan was in her inner circle for a time. The woman actually dominates from beyond the grave over Leonard Piekoff.

I enjoyed reading Rand, and she was a very interesting woman, but if she's intellectual porn, it's porn of the Hustler variety.

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RE: Ayn Rand you big Sub!!! - 10/24/2009 6:59:37 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

If Rand indulged in humiliation play, did her man dress up like Karl Marx?




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RE: Ayn Rand you big Sub!!! - 10/24/2009 11:12:05 AM   
SilentSpark


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Status: offline 		wow... I didn't know Rand is like that... Now I start to understand the meaning of "inner circle"... LOL... Her book is a bit too idealistic. And if you ask me, it's like Emperor's new clothes in reverse, if I say "no one can be like Howard Roark", then I'll automatically get categorized into "losers". Still, it's a fun book to read, and some of the speeches are very well written. Toohey is just so charmingly evil. Ayn Rand want to write like Victor Hugo, or at least, that's what she loved, romanticism. But compare to Hugo, her writings lack that humanitarian touch. She doesn't allow weakness or any "lesser human emotion". She saw the world in black and white absolute, and that's something I can not agree with.

As for the writing, I haven't read much erotica to make the judgement.


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RE: Ayn Rand you big Sub!!! - 10/24/2009 11:30:40 AM   
AnimusRex


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Status: offline 		As an architect myself, I read the Fountainhead in design school. As a work of fiction, it has all kinds of things to say about politics and culture, in America circa 1955.
I do appreciate the link between Howard Roarke and say, Sir Stephan from O; the sense of so intense and burning a bond and devotion that it becomes eroticly charged, that passionate drive and intensity...

Howard Roarke was loosely based on Frank Lloyd Wright- he, like Rand herself, inspired a legion of acolytes and cultish devotees. The outrageous irony is that the fountainheads of individualism, who preached a gospel of iconoclastic intellectual freedom, inspired so many who slavishly follow their every utterances.
Even today, the Taliesin Foundation sells reproductions of Wright's designs for house, all done exactly, pecisely, to the letter, how the Master Himself would have done it.

To go into a riff on the BDSM link- there is often a tendency, isn't there, to draw up rules and boundaries for BDSM, following the template of Stephan and O, or Tarl Cabot and the people of Gor, in such a way as to turn commentaries into blueprints.

But I suppose that is the link between BDSM and a radical manifesto- where the normal complexities and contradictions of life, when all our fallibility and weaknesses can be washed away by the baptism of a single bold meaning, leaving only a pure, clear, purpose that burns white hot without the messy distraction of doubt or uncertainty.



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RE: Ayn Rand you big Sub!!! - 10/24/2009 2:44:27 PM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilentSpark

wow... I didn't know Rand is like that... Now I start to understand the meaning of "inner circle"... LOL... Her book is a bit too idealistic. And if you ask me, it's like Emperor's new clothes in reverse, if I say "no one can be like Howard Roark", then I'll automatically get categorized into "losers". Still, it's a fun book to read, and some of the speeches are very well written. Toohey is just so charmingly evil. Ayn Rand want to write like Victor Hugo, or at least, that's what she loved, romanticism. But compare to Hugo, her writings lack that humanitarian touch. She doesn't allow weakness or any "lesser human emotion". She saw the world in black and white absolute, and that's something I can not agree with.


If I may be so presumptuous, I'm going to tell you in advance that you do not have to read all the way through the "This is John Galt speaking" chapter. She beats that horse into glue. I think Ayn Rand is a fun read. (And Dagny is a richer character than Dominique). Her heroes and heroines typify a boldness of character and commitment to principle that many readers seek to nourish in themselves. But, as you note, her world is not the real world. And people who get too carried away by her narrative tend to misunderstand their place in the real world. Nothing wrong with a little self-indulgent fantasy, as long as you recognize that it is fantasy. So, yeah, fuck people who brand you a "loser" for realizing Howard Roark could not exist as a real human being. A guy has to be pretty hot and exceptional in other ways in order for me to tolerate an overly positive opinion of Ayn Rand.


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RE: Ayn Rand you big Sub!!! - 10/24/2009 3:10:34 PM   
SilentSpark


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Status: offline 		I haven't read most of the common DS porn, from which many had started their DS journey. I think the only erotica I read is the beauty books, and even that I only finish the first one because I find the book rather stupid (Sorry Rice fans). It's a fun game for me, to categorize people into doms and subs, even I know it's rather stupid to label people like that. I call it my "dom-dar" like "radar" or "gay-dar" and such...LOL.

For fountainhead, my favorite character is not Howard, he's too cold, like marble sculpture, perfect but inhumane, given he's super talented and super dominate, I won't want to date someone like that even I had the chance; I don't like Dominique either, for roughly the same reason, unapproachable. I actually like Toohey, he's charming in an extremely evil way. My favorite character is Catherine, if anyone remember, Keating's on and off love interest. She comes out as a pale character, doesn't have much other than her devotion to Keating, but she eventually turns into something very special. For all the people in Fountainhead, Catherine's struggle is most realistic, in my opinion at least. Apparently, Rand doesn't believe she deserve her attention, so we rarely see her around during the second half of the book.

Even I know Fountainhead is not real, it is a fantasy world just like the Lord of the Rings, it's good to hear someone agree with me. No one can be like Howard. Victor Hugo wrote stories and characters that's real, and approachable, yet noble and grand. Rand wrote people noble and grand, and that's about it. I guess part of the reason being when Rand wrote her books, she also wants to promote her philosophical ideas. But Hugo, as a pure novelist, only want to write good stories.

As much as enjoy The Fountainhead, Ninety Three remain my all time favorite.


< Message edited by SilentSpark -- 10/24/2009 3:11:01 PM >

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RE: Ayn Rand you big Sub!!! - 10/24/2009 3:24:01 PM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilentSpark

Even I know Fountainhead is not real, it is a fantasy world just like the Lord of the Rings, it's good to hear someone agree with me.


Ok, your comment is ten kinds of awesome, for the following reason:

quote:

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.


Kung Fu Monkey

Trust me, there are an enormous number of people who agree with you.

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RE: Ayn Rand you big Sub!!! - 10/24/2009 4:24:43 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		That's hilarious, Lucienne. Thanks.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Ayn Rand you big Sub!!! - 10/25/2009 1:02:14 PM   
abuddingdom


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Status: offline 		Yes, Lucienne -when I saw the Op's title I said- " oh no, no, no - Ayn Rand was many things but not a submissive...." And, Dracula , dripping with exchanging bodily fluids and Victorian repression and the uptight West being invaded by the magical East ,was my first adult book - I was 12, I think(read that one as an adult- still rich in theme and atmosphere but what a hack Stoker was). Harold Robbins was next. Anyone suprised that I eventually made my way to CM?

I was given (and read) Atlas Shrugged asa gift back in the late 70's. I re-read it with a somewhat different world view about 12 or 13 years ago while recovering from a back injury. Over a 6 month period I read, and I read, &I  read some more. I tried The Fountainhead at this time, also, but after Atlas, including that "This is John Galt speaking" chapter, I called it quits about 100 pages in and back to the library did it go. I rarely don't finish a book once I start but I just couldn't take any more.......I went on to read 2 bios(I'd bet the same 2 which Lucienne read) and I did manage to get through her The Virtue of Selfishness treatise. Rand was into polyamory but it was a trainwreck,resulting in wounded  (& mismatched)human beings flopping all over the place. I've wondered if she and Branden, despite their age difference, may have had better luck and been a  healthy match if they both weren't  already married to people who only very reluctantly accepted their places in others stories. Oh, and if they could have been honest - both were masters of moral compromise.  Atlas is the only fiction of hers which I  have read  so I can't compare the characters of different works, but Dagny had some S&M tendencies, to be sure. Note the first sex scene wirh her and the railroad guy(whose name I don't recollect). It started pretty roughly then the camera panned off scene, so to speak. When the reader rejoins them the next morning  despite the sun shining&the birds chirping  the rest of the world   is essentially going to hell around them , but more relevently to this thread there was blood on the sheets and bruises on her arms.And it had already been established that Dagny was no virgin before they consummated their lust, I mean passion. Then, much later in the book when she and Galt hook up in the railroad tunnel I seem to remember her actually enjoying the pain of  gravel and whatever else was under her back .....Both books are ripe for film. Fountainhead would be a remake, obviously. I've never seen it but I can't imagine it containing or capturing much of the book, especially the  iconic characters. I've read that Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt are major Atlas fans and have been trying for years to  get it produced asa TV miniseries, with them as the stars of course.

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RE: Ayn Rand you big Sub!!! - 10/25/2009 3:56:23 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		Well, they finally made Watchmen, so maybe it'll happen.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Ayn Rand you big Sub!!! - 10/25/2009 4:22:59 PM   
Tinkerer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

If Rand indulged in humiliation play, did her man dress up like Karl Marx?

ROTFL

I haven't read The Fountainhead yet, but I loved Atlas Shrugged. I agree, she does seen to have some strong D/s relations in her work (at least what I've read).

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RE: Ayn Rand you big Sub!!! - 10/25/2009 4:33:41 PM   
Level


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Tinkerer, if you liked Atlas, then I'll bet you'll enjoy The Fountainhead.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Ayn Rand you big Sub!!! - 10/25/2009 5:25:29 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		Everytime I hear about Ayn Rand I think of college kids who think they're all sophisticated, educated and intelligent, who think they're now part of some kind of elite group lol.....

Yeah...Ayn Rand does nothing for me and leaves me cold and bored to be honest.

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RE: Ayn Rand you big Sub!!! - 10/25/2009 5:56:18 PM   
PolyVinyl


Posts: 49
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Status: offline 		Anyone here play Bioshock? It apparently had a number of roots in Atlas shrugged, which is why it's on my backlog of books to read.

My actual question is, why are there so many negative views of the book, much less Rand herself? I also have a bad feeling I know what was meant by
quote:

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
because one of my roommates last year was socially retarded in that he was just...unrealistic in his pursuit of perfection. He was an elitist and nothing could knock him down...he came into my college to be an M.D., he's a Major in English now....still a jackass though.

Anyway....yeah! Cool discussion

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RE: Ayn Rand you big Sub!!! - 10/25/2009 6:02:22 PM   
abuddingdom


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Status: offline 		Since posting earlier today, I recalled seeing a movie based on The Passion of Ayn Rand only a year or so ago, though I think it was made more like 10 years ago. She was played by Helen Mirren and Eric Stolz played Branden. It  was pretty faithful to the source, as much asa 2 hour adaptation of a book can be. I'm pretty certain it was an HBO or Showtime production, not theatrical.  The book was written by Branden's ex-wife but is suprisingly resentment free. I think she recognised and took her part in the entire fiasco and still admired and adhered to Rand's Objectivism philosophy. I'd advise if anyone  curious or interested enough in all this to read Atlas then read Passion, but even if you  were only to watch the movie it would help to read and be familiar with Atlas first.

Reading littlewonders post begs the question : is it still a rite of passage for some percentage of college kids to go through a Rand phase? I know it was in past generations, including my own, but  would  the average college student even recognise her name, if asked? I'm guessing the higher level of education the more likely  that students would be familiar?  

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RE: Ayn Rand you big Sub!!! - 10/25/2009 6:08:34 PM   
abuddingdom


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Status: offline 		We crossposted, PolyVinyl. I know I could just google it but, what is Bioshock? A game of some kind, I'm assuming? Atlas is Rand's philosophies very thinly disguised in basically a Science Fiction novel, and there was some techologically advanced "shock machines", intricate to the plot  in it.

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RE: Ayn Rand you big Sub!!! - 10/25/2009 6:37:22 PM   
idroolchicksrule


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Status: offline 		I actually laughed out loud (not lol) to most of this thread.
Good stuff.

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RE: Ayn Rand you big Sub!!! - 10/25/2009 7:18:43 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Everytime I hear about Ayn Rand I think of college kids who think they're all sophisticated, educated and intelligent, who think they're now part of some kind of elite group lol.....

Yeah...Ayn Rand does nothing for me and leaves me cold and bored to be honest.



That's how I feel about Noam Chomsky

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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