Churchill and the BNP? (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> Churchill and the BNP? (10/24/2009 6:22:14 AM)

The BNP has come under fire for using images of Churchill, adopting him as their own and stating that if he were alive today the BNP would be his natural political home.

Churchill was the wartime leader of the UK through WWII and therefore associated with a struggle against a vile regime based on racism and accompanying eugenics to (supposedly) improve one already great race at the expense by extermination of competing races. He is therefore associated equally with moral values which resist the sort of ideas promoted by the BNP.

Yet reading about Winston, one finds the truth to be somewhat shocking in this regard - there is no doubt that he was a racist and no doubt whatever that he was a lead supporter for the introduction of eugenics into public policy and law. Similarly there is no doubt from this that his views on the general superiority of the white race, (and peculiarly the British race), as compared to others and the threat they faced from supposed degeneration if mixed with other races, would fit him very much into the BNP mould.

The odd thing about all this is that Churchill (and notable others) derived their ideas in this way not from reactionary right wing bigotry but from the liberal progressive tradition; the notion was that the social misery of the poor was due to the genetic presence amongst them of genetically poor  and "feeble minded" persons whose reproduction perpetuated that presence from generation to generation so perpetuating their misery. In order to alleviate that social misery and poverty therefore, eugenics should be implemented to remove that presence once and for all.

It was an idea born of enlightened aims, supported by a stetched interpretation of Darwinism and pretty vile in its potential execution. It was an idea fully implemented in many countries round the world - including the USA where it gained great currency in the 1930s.

Naturally, given that other races were taken to be genetically poor and "feeble minded", (particularly black African and other "coloured" races), it went without saying that any admixture of black and white would result in poor offspring and so social misery - therefore the prevention of mixed marriages (mostly a potential only in those days) was paramount to social progress and the promotion of civilisation. From there it is but a short jump to hold that believers in eugenics such as Churchill would have been against the sort of multi-ethnic society we have in Britain today, providing as it does for the heightened potential of admixture with the white race and influence upon it by supposedly feeble minded thinking derived from other genetically inferior ethnic groups in its midst.

We can therefore conclude that the BNP assertion to adopt Churchill is at worst not without merit and in reality probably well founded indeed.

This however presents urgent and great problems - Churchill is so much part of the British national myth that for these truths to be acknowledged is in itself dangerous. Combined with an association with fascists as in this case, the danger grows enormously, lending the BNP a credibility quite beyond its deserving. Yet we cannot change history to suit ourselves - or can we?

E




kittinSol -> RE: Churchill and the BNP? (10/24/2009 6:41:50 AM)

It's time to do away with the British national myth, that's all.




LadyEllen -> RE: Churchill and the BNP? (10/24/2009 6:47:08 AM)

In some ways I agree KS - we need a new national myth that is all inclusive and which respects the rights and values we have caused to be enacted since 1945

E




kittinSol -> RE: Churchill and the BNP? (10/24/2009 6:55:10 AM)

It will happen, LadyE. It's inevitable. Churchill will become an increasingly distant symbol from the past, with a diminishing significance in the national psyche, and soon, people like Griffin won't be able to invoke his memory to the younger public, because they won't even know who the fuck Churchill was in the first place [:)] .




LadyEllen -> RE: Churchill and the BNP? (10/24/2009 7:17:36 AM)

Perhaps KS, but I think it will take a long time.

Meanwhile a few years back we had ceremonies to commemorate the Holocaust and the liberation of the camps. Kids were asked their opinions on it all and one that stood out for me was a teenager who, when asked what he thought of Auschwitz replied something along the lines of he didnt like their new album but they were OK. Thats the sort of fading into oblivion that worries me.

E




Moonhead -> RE: Churchill and the BNP? (10/24/2009 7:19:01 AM)

The really worrying thing about that is that it's a gift to the holocaust deniers. It won't be long now until there aren't any witnesses to that left.




LadyEllen -> RE: Churchill and the BNP? (10/24/2009 7:27:59 AM)

Indeed MH and thats why, within the parameters of free speech and valid historical research, its essential for us who are the children and grandchildren of those who witnessed it, whether directly or indirectly, to keep it something part of the general awareness that contributes to life and in particular political life.

Its not easy though - my own youngest sister studied WWII for her school history examinations and had to ask later on - when my dad and I were discussing the dangers of the UK ID system then being proposed - who had won the war? She honestly had no idea about the ideas, policies, programmes and results of naziism either; and when in modern times we have public debate about things like ID cards, curtailment of freedoms et al, it would seem the younger generation have no idea of the parameters and context of such a debate - and that is scary in the "those who dont know their history are doomed to repeat it" sort of way.

E




slvemike4u -> RE: Churchill and the BNP? (10/24/2009 10:42:07 AM)

Lady E,a good portion of the Founding Fathers were slave holders.....would it therefore follow that they would be members of the KKK today?Extrapolating whether or not Churchill would today be a member of the BNP is a tricky business.....a man's measure can only,honestly,be measured against the back drop of his own time.
Churchills beliefs,certainly abhorant by any standards today...were not so far from the norm in the'30s.This isn't to excuse or condone......hell I'm Irish Churchill's not exactly on the top of my favorite historical figures list....still the BNP's use of Churchill,IMO falls under the category of wishfull thinking and nothing more.




Politesub53 -> RE: Churchill and the BNP? (10/24/2009 11:33:04 AM)

Churchill was of his time, it isnt possible or practible to view him in the same light as the BNP. Nations evolve, as do individuals and Britain is no different. Many government policies from 100 years ago wouldnt get throught Parliament these days.




LadyEllen -> RE: Churchill and the BNP? (10/24/2009 3:42:39 PM)

These are good points  - but how is it then right that in response to the BNP assertions, the modern mainstream asserts - quite incorrectly according to the historical record - that Churchill was in agreement with modern values and thinking, ie in line with the modern mainstream?

Is this not simply the counterpart of the BNP assertion in that all sides wish to be associated with such a national figure to their own ends whilst ignoring inconvenient facts?

Can we rewrite history to suit our own ends?

E




Politesub53 -> RE: Churchill and the BNP? (10/24/2009 4:20:54 PM)

I`m not sure how why you think the mainstream still think this. There is a myriad of info about Churchill and his political thinking, right from his views on an Irish Republic ( he supported the idea of a free state) to his views on eugenics. All of this thinking is, as ours is, shaped on previous generations. The point I am making is that his ideas were common amongst many western countries. Nowadays mainstream consider this outdated and racist, you could use other examples such as thinking about the feeble minded.

The difference with the BNP is that the beliefs they hold are outside of modern mainstream thinking.




DarkSteven -> RE: Churchill and the BNP? (10/24/2009 4:23:23 PM)

That's ridiculous.  He made his choices and lived his life.  Then he died.

Resurrecting him and claiming what his beliefs would have been is disrespectful, to say the least.  How's he going to object?




Moonhead -> RE: Churchill and the BNP? (10/24/2009 4:28:28 PM)

He can't. That's why the BNP are trying to adopt him, rather than (say) David Duke or Prussian Blue.




Politesub53 -> RE: Churchill and the BNP? (10/24/2009 4:39:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

He can't. That's why the BNP are trying to adopt him, rather than (say) David Duke or Prussian Blue.


Exactly, the BNP are just trying to appeal to the masses, it didnt work with facism in the 30s and it wont work now.




LadyEllen -> RE: Churchill and the BNP? (10/24/2009 5:04:27 PM)

Indeed but this is another instance is it not where popular (misinformed) opinion will prevail over the truth of history?

Is it time to publicly disclose and educate about who Churchill really was? The public right now see him as a paragon of all things great about Britain and so the association with the BNP takes them forward in some little way (otherwise they wouldnt be doing it) - yet the same public for the most part want nothing to do with the BNP since contrary to the opinions of the elite, they aint quite that gullible. What I am saying is, should we now consign Churchill to condemnation, purely because the BNP concurs with his views, thereby removing him as a weapon in their arsenal?

Its just that my feeling is that by not talking about this stuff, by writing it off and so on, we do the BNP a favour in the same way we did when we refused to share a platform with them - for reasons which last Thursday night were shown to be misguided as Mr Griffin stumbled his way to a disastrous exposure before the nation.

Its equally my feeling that fighting the fascists has to progress, as the fascists have progressed, from street protests that make the BNP look reasonable and civilised by comparison. My feeling is that instead we have to be more sophisticated - identifying the ground they stand on and removing it from under them.

E




Politesub53 -> RE: Churchill and the BNP? (10/24/2009 5:25:16 PM)

Why condemn Churchill for todays situation, it isnt of his making. The BNP are just trying to garner support yet reading the media and talking to people locally it seems to be having the opposite effect. You only had to watch question time to realise that. I would suggest more good was done for the BNP by Labour leaving "English" off as a choice for nationality from the last census. Thats the stuff that really antagonises people and politicians should take note.




Moonhead -> RE: Churchill and the BNP? (10/25/2009 5:44:58 AM)

That said, however big a tit Griffin made of himself on Question Time, it'll still endear him to the sort of idiots who think that everything that's wrong with the UK is down to immigration. In fact, watching him get demolished by an audience and panel containing a lot of people who aren't white is probably going to do them more good in the long term than his putting in a half decent showing would have.




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