RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are wrong (Full Version)

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luckydawg -> RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are wrong (10/27/2009 8:58:33 PM)

Pyro, your post makes very little sense. YOu act as if you believe that scientists kow exactly what is happening and what the result of any action would be.

You keep saying doing something, as if there was a simple something to do.

For example, we could go all nuclear today, and stop the rise of CO2, but perhaps suffer a catostrohic meltdown.

Or the negative economic effects of some proposed solutions could cause Governments to fail, and in the resulting anarchy people would be burning tires to stay alive. Which would be worse than the current system.

I could give a thousand examples where just doing something is worse than ignoring the problem.

For example some people think Sex with a virgin cures aids. Doing something about your AIDS with that mindset is worse for the society.




InvisibleBlack -> RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are wrong (10/27/2009 9:01:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

For example some people think Sex with a virgin cures aids.


Wait...

You mean it doesn't!?

I had a whole business plan put together ... I just needed to find a bunch of virgins. [;)]




DomKen -> RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are wrong (10/27/2009 9:08:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You are right.

Now that we are past your ego, was there something of substance in any of the OP? Climate change is occurring. Guess what? It happens all the time. Now show some proof of how much man is adding to it in comparison with how much is naturally occurring. Man is polluting the environment, but to what degree it has a global impact is what seems to be disputed.

Hell I am more upset about all the damn plastic floating in our water, the amount of pollutants in our water, and all the land that is contaminated so it cannot be used. Maybe mankind should go after the things we know for sure is causing pollution.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Kirata claimed nobody denies climate change. I presented two statements that do. Play semantic games and whine all you want it doesn't change those facts.


Did you read the linked article? It directly debunks an article that Sanity posted a couple of weeks ago that he and some of the rest of the cons trumpeted as proof positive that global warming wasn't occuring. My sole reason for posting was to show that mathematicians who looked at teh data did not find the trends in the data that the previous article claimed.




luckydawg -> RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are wrong (10/27/2009 9:33:43 PM)

Invisible, it seems funny, but tens of millions of people in Africa do think so. And the results are not funny at all.




Kirata -> RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are wrong (10/27/2009 9:48:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

It directly debunks an article that Sanity posted a couple of weeks ago that he and some of the rest of the cons trumpeted as proof positive that global warming wasn't occuring.

Except that they didn't, and neither did the article. The debate was (and is) about whether rising CO2 levels can be the major causative factor. The lead article in the thread concludes, "One thing is for sure. It seems the debate about what is causing global warming is far from over." And the body of the thread continued that debate, or at least attempted to, despite the usual harrassment from our local Burn the Witches Choir and Faith Band.

K.







OrionTheWolf -> RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are wrong (10/28/2009 4:42:56 AM)

Then you should have posted it in that topic where all the relevent posts were at. I read your article, but didn't read Sanity's. I have read enough on this to determine that 1) The theories are all politically driven 2) We know less than we believe we do 3) It is fodder for ping pong matches in the scientific and political arenas.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Did you read the linked article? It directly debunks an article that Sanity posted a couple of weeks ago that he and some of the rest of the cons trumpeted as proof positive that global warming wasn't occuring. My sole reason for posting was to show that mathematicians who looked at teh data did not find the trends in the data that the previous article claimed.




Aneirin -> RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are wrong (10/28/2009 5:19:23 AM)

I think the bottom line in all of this is, if you believe man is warming the planet, by all means vote someone in to suit your needs, but be ready to start paying more in taxes and whatever for living. Remember though the more you pay the harder you have to work, and if you are at that level already, working as hard as you can, are you prepared to push harder for your beliefs. On the other hand, if you do not believe global warming is a man made issue, simple, deny the political advocates access to power to control your life, don't vote for them, and refuse to pay extra for a myth.

But humanity in it's present sense, what records we have, which I guess includes the old testement, warm and cool periods have been written about, now my understanding is for something to be written about, then it has got to be different from the norm, so I guess what we are all bleating about has happened before, and many times. In fact, it might be interesting to see if experts in the old testement can define these warm periods, dates obviously would be screwed, but an indication is good enough. Noah's flood, Northern ice sheets melting perhaps.

And on the subject of scientists, just remember, because someone is labelled a scientist, it is not an indication that they are a credible scientist, or for that matter, a credible person, plenty of nutters and extremists in the science field, they are human after all. All Scientist denotes, is a person who is trained in seeking data and interpreting it to perhaps suit a theory, but theories are just that, an understanding that fits. Theories are not status quo whilst there are still questions to be answered and since we are not advanced enough to know everything, theories are all we have, be they right, or wrong, time will tell.

So if you have surmised that I am an unbeliever in man made global warming, you are correct, but I am not going to alter my life as it is whilst munitions are being detonated in theatres of war, rockets are being blasted into space and nuclear weapons are being tested. All sources of heat, and extreme heat at that, not to forget the pollutants that come from the detonation and burning of chemicals used in those activities.

Who knows even, all those past nuclear testings in the Pacific, perhaps a concentrated heat form in a small area, way and above the heat that would have been created by human industry, if it is man that has created our rise in temperature, perhaps the nukes of the past, and present are to blame and one should be looking at the military, who seem to favour devastating force.




looking4princess -> RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are wrong (10/28/2009 5:33:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic

Evidence or not we should be conscience of the fact that it can indeed happen. Man made or natural it does not matter...

respect the damn planet.


There have been five major life extinction events evident in the paleontogical history of the planet. These episodes were the result of various causes which are still of course being investigated. The most renown is the most recent because it involved the extermination of the large dinosaurs, and that stirs our imagination.

Read here for more details

You say "respect the damn planet." What makes you think this planet or life on it is so damn special and deserving of respect?

Only if you believe in a special creation by a supernatural creature. If so, it is his creation, let him deal with it. Otherwise, we are talking about a middling rock hurtling mindlessly through a cosmic sea subject to unpredictable forces.

It is delusionary and short-sighted to think that this planet or our species will not be obliterated one insignificant day in the history of this still expanding Universe. It is arrogance to assume that governments of man have the ability to control the forces of Nature. It is conceit for men to pound their chests and scream "do something" when the problem and/or its causes are in doubt and the unintended consequences of our actions are unknown. It is folly to think we are so freakin powerful and important.

Better to find some hobby or distraction that will add flavor and texture to the gift of life that we have. Sex is a good alternative. Even writing silly broadsides on kinky message boards is fun. But let us not delude ourselves into thinking we are in charge of our fate.

Or here's a thought, instead of creating another financial boondoggle in the form of carbon credits why not devote our resources to easing the impact of disease, poverty, and war so that more people can enjoy the Gift.




pyroaquatic -> RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are wrong (10/28/2009 11:33:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Pyro, your post makes very little sense. YOu act as if you believe that scientists kow exactly what is happening and what the result of any action would be.

You keep saying doing something, as if there was a simple something to do.

For example, we could go all nuclear today, and stop the rise of CO2, but perhaps suffer a catostrohic meltdown.

Or the negative economic effects of some proposed solutions could cause Governments to fail, and in the resulting anarchy people would be burning tires to stay alive. Which would be worse than the current system.

I could give a thousand examples where just doing something is worse than ignoring the problem.

For example some people think Sex with a virgin cures aids. Doing something about your AIDS with that mindset is worse for the society.


Yep. Let us ignore a problem so it can potentially come back and bite us in the ass. Good strategy there.

Obviously I woke up on the ceiling this morning so I am feeling somewhat grumpy.... so here it goes.

There is no WE. We are all divided and failing. We should do this, we should do that, we should.... blah blah blah.....

you know what? Fuck other people. I don't care right now.... generalized statement..... they don't care (obviously not everyone). I retract my previous statement of caring for people.

Yeah! Lets put thousands upon thousands of tonnes of organic and inorganic waste material. We will deal with it tomorrow... or the next day, or the next day, or the next day.

Even though the organic material can be composted into one hell of a fertilizer, and most of the other waste can be reused.

The point is: Be conscience of your actions.

@looking4princess

This beckons to what I said to luckydawg.....

Yeah, sure we are a space rock subject to unspeakable horrors at any given point in time. Sure it is easy to say "DO SOMETHING" and beat our chests.

But is it easy to act?

Why yes, Yes I believe it is. Is it easy to be conscience of our actions? Well, I would like to think I know what I am doing.

Let me tell you something:

I OWN my own business dealing with these very issues. Alternative Energies, Recycling and recrafting.

It takes sacrifice on my part and no one is helping me. Do I want people to help out? HELL YA.

The ball is rolling, people are getting the message.

I can tell you one thing.... the electronics and batteries that I am recycling are not leaving this country whatsoever.

In places like india and china they burn these chips and plastics near public schools.

-----------

How much effort does it take to throw your trash into a trashcan? I mean seriously? Have any of you picked up trash on the side of a highway lately (and of your own choice not because you are wearing orange)?

----

Climate change is not the issue here.

The issue is efficiency and waste management. We should not have waste. Period. There is no waste in nature, which is what we are part of.

Get that word out of your nomenclature right now. NOW.

Everything has a use.

Thing of all of the energy it takes to make and transport a plastic doll, and then dispose of it properly. Or food, or anything that you consume or purchase at the store.

tick tock tick tock tick tock....

--------

What makes this planet special?

I MAKE THE PLANET SPECIAL THROUGH CONSCIENCE CHOICES. I PERCEIVE IT TO BE SPECIAL AND BEHOLD, IT BECOMES SPECIAL TO ME.

[:@]

Good Goes In, Good Comes Out.
Respect Goes in, Respect Goes out.
Bad Goes in, Bad goes out.
Disrespect goes in, Disrespect goes out.

The love you receive is equal to the love you exude.





looking4princess -> RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are wrong (10/28/2009 1:10:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic

@looking4princess

<BIG SNIP>

Climate change is not the issue here.

The issue is efficiency and waste management. We should not have waste. Period. There is no waste in nature, which is what we are part of.

<BIG SNIP>





Sorry pyro, but we disagree on these two points:

(1) Although I admire your enthusiasm and your humanitarianism, this thread is all about climate change.

(2) While there is a great deal of waste among human industry and consumerism, we disagree when you say there is no waste in Nature.

Evolution is notoriously wasteful: behaviors and body parts become ill-adapted to changing environment; species and individuals are destroyed willy-nilly by the mindless process.

Evolution does a much better job of recycling mass/energy than do we humans but the process itself as I understand it has been hugely wasteful. Gene pools are merciless when confronted with hostile environmental changes. The ill-adapted are left strewn about to rot in the jungles of evolution-time, although granted some are useful as part of the food chain.

Thank you.....






OrionTheWolf -> RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are wrong (10/28/2009 2:57:13 PM)

It is only waste to humans, but can often be used for other things. Even nature has some areas that humans consider waste, such as marshes and swamps. Have you looked at the CO production caused by rotting organic matter? If we are going to target man mad CO emissions, maybe we should look into alternatives into how to make concrete, research it. Damn if people are going to be concerned about things, I do recommend some research.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are wrong (10/28/2009 7:00:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Kirata claimed nobody denies climate change. I presented two statements that do. Play semantic games and whine all you want it doesn't change those facts.



But they DONT deny climate change except in your mind.




Irishknight -> RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are wrong (10/29/2009 9:32:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Have you looked at the CO production caused by rotting organic matter?


What a rude thing to say about Colorado.




InvisibleBlack -> RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are wrong (10/29/2009 10:48:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Kirata claimed nobody denies climate change. I presented two statements that do. Play semantic games and whine all you want it doesn't change those facts.


But they DONT deny climate change except in your mind.


"Climate change" is one of those nice innocuous phrases that has no real meaning and so can be used to obfuscate in a discussion. Of course the climate changes. During the Cretaceous period the planet was much warmer and large segments of it were covered with jungle and massive vegetation. There was a period where the sea level was so high that a big chunk of the American west was an ocean - this is where the salt flats around Salt Lake City came from - as things cooled the water level dropped and that area became land. We had several Ice Ages where massive glaciers moved towards the equator and permanently changed the landscape. Long Island in New York is made from the debris that were pushed forward by those glaciers and it marks the end of their southward movement.

When someone says "climate change" it is impossible to determine whether they are referring to the natural cyclical processes of the planet, potential man-made aberrations to those processes, or naturally occuring anomalies (the sun flaring and releasing more solar energy, the planet moving through a dust cloud) which could result in abnormal climates.

Definition of terms is critical to any successful debate.




Starbuck09 -> RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are wrong (10/29/2009 10:59:35 AM)

What I have never understood about this debate is that any reasonable proponent on either side of the argument recognises that man contributes to this process and that it is the extent to which he is speeding up a natural process that is the pertinent question. Given that presumably at some point we are going to have to deal with a  warmer climate the only contention is when it will become inescapable. Therefore surely what is important is to invest in methods to reduce and mitigate the impact of global warming rather than trying to stop it and simply shift the problem a few decades or a century down the timeline?




Brain -> RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are wrong (10/29/2009 5:19:08 PM)


You might be interested in a book called How to Lie with Statistics

http://www.addebook.com/tech/mathematics/how-to-lie-with-statistics-039309426x_10757.html


I don't think debating who are what caused climate change helps. Who or what caused it doesn't matter. A lot can be done to stop it and we need to get a move on and take action. Jon Stewart had a guest on recently and he had some very creative ideas

Steven Levitt, Superfreakonomics, this is the guy on The Daily Show who had all of these great ideas how to stop global warming. He suggested many ways to stop global warming. He said we can't reverse 5000 years of human nature and behavior. There was a chapter on global warming in the book Superfreakonomics. Here's an example of it on the Internet:

“Also, I haven’t looked at the chapter for a while, but our main point isn’t that the earth isn’t getting warmer, and honestly, for our arguments we don’t even care why.

All we are saying in the end is this: if the earth is getting warmer, is the better solution one that

a) costs 1.5 trillion dollars, doesn’t work for 50 years, somehow requires all humans to change their behavior sharply, and may not work anyway, or

b) one that costs $200 million, could be built tomorrow, would start working right away, and can be stopped and reversed within a year if we don’t like the results.

I think I would start by choosing “b,” and only use “a” if I had to.”

http://www.standupeconomist.com/blog/economics/more-superfreakonomics-emails-from-steven-levitt/

Jon Stewart Endorses Geoengineering, Scares Audience (VIDEO)
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/10/stephen_levitt.php

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Straw man Ken, at it again. [:D]

Nobody denies climate change. What is questioned is anthropogenic global warming. Let me know when you guys discover all those previously unknown medieval coal-fired power plants, okay?

[image]http://www.drroyspencer.com/library/pics/2000-years-of-global-temperature.jpg[/image]

The data summarized in the above image have been updated here (Ohio State University).

K.











servantforuse -> RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are wrong (10/29/2009 5:34:18 PM)

I'll believe that global warming is a problem when Al Gore stops flying around the globe in his private jet.




Aneirin -> RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are wrong (10/29/2009 7:20:02 PM)

Ok, if, if the warmer weather that is coming is without doubt, and beyond reproach a product of human activity, what would we have to do to reverse the situation, ok, scratch that, level the situation, nah, that's not right, what the hell can we do, given the damage has been done already ? Do we really think we can control the planet, have we become that arrogant ? Sure, pile money into the problem, but perhaps one forgets, in order to pile money into a problem, increased industry is required, that is unless one is prepared to eat into your existing budget and ditch the car, or go without some food or whatever. Would anyone voluntarily decrease their standard of living to 'save' the planet, I suppose you would if you are told to and that enforced, but who is going to enforce, when a country needs industry and commerce for it to survive, and pay the enforcers. But the question is what is more important to a country, it's stance on impending doom, or it's stance on the world stage. Just remember, in order to maintain a strong position globally, one has got to have something to keep that country at the top. Weapons need industry, troops need industry, all of it mechanised and there requiring fuel. You can't defend a country with pitch forks.

Despite all the claims about man made global warming, I somehow think it's just words, as no one, not one country is going to decide to '' Save the world '', and there leave itself open to invasion or harassment by others, certainly not the US anyway. The US needs to be on top, and that, like it or not means industry and there global warming, if it is indeed man made. There are many countries like the US, who wish to maintain their position, or better it.

I know, the scientists that speak doom and gloom about what we are doing to the world, let's solve it, tell them to turn their bunsen burners off. Hmmm, that's a thought, maybe the scientists can do something useful and devise a way to harvest the hot air that they seem good at producing, that would do some good at reducing global warming they say is man made, that includes them, and for them to put their selves where their mouth is, they can walk to where they need to be to record their data. It starts with them, they bite the bullet and cut out anything that contributes to the mam made phenomena they say is fact, maybe then we will start listening and believing.




DomKen -> RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are wrong (10/29/2009 8:59:01 PM)

First off we would need to reduce the amount of fossil fuels we burn. Developing alternative energy sources would be a step in that direction. Reducing urban sprawl, so more plants remain to convert CO2 back to O2. One often overlook part of the problem is concrete, manufacturing concrete releases a lot of CO2 into the atmosphere. Got to be some way to make the stuff cleaner.

In the long term smarter urban planning so that more of life can be done without a car is vital. Increasing use of and efficiency of public transit is another big part of any plan.




Aneirin -> RE: More evidence that the climate change deniers are wrong (10/30/2009 7:04:54 AM)

Well, I am for more trees, the more the better. But a proviso on that, plant trees of different species, as trees of the same species like spruce, kind of gets boring after a few months living in it.




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