RE: 15 abortions for "Master" (Full Version)

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DesFIP -> RE: 15 abortions for "Master" (10/30/2009 2:39:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

This was a gem here:

quote:

Robin Morgan, a feminist author who wrote the foreword to Vilar's book, says "consensuality is impossible in that situation because of the power imbalance."


You hear that subby ladies? Your ability to consent has been wiped away by Robin Morgan because of the power imbalances in your (would-be/) relationships.




What kind of consent can there be between a 15 year old and a 50 year old? She was a kid from a fucked up home, mother suicided before her eyes, grandmother an uncaring murderer. The fact that he waited will she was 18 to physically have sex with her doesn't change the fact that he spent three years doing emotional abuse.

And for all she claims she was the seducer, that isn't true. She was a child. He knew that and took advantage of that.



NihilusZero -> RE: 15 abortions for "Master" (10/30/2009 2:59:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

What kind of consent can there be between a 15 year old and a 50 year old? She was a kid from a fucked up home, mother suicided before her eyes, grandmother an uncaring murderer. The fact that he waited will she was 18 to physically have sex with her doesn't change the fact that he spent three years doing emotional abuse.

And for all she claims she was the seducer, that isn't true. She was a child. He knew that and took advantage of that.

I realize you and others may have picked the article's intentional dropping of the lowest age (15) as an indication of when the relationship started. It wasn't. She was 16 when she started making advances on him. He waited one additional year to have sex with her (since the age of consent in NY is 17).

And, where on earth did you infer any emotional abuse? Maybe you've read the book and I haven't, but nowhere in that article is anything written about how her forced her to get abortions or threatened abuse if she didn't. Apparently, she found no other option (maybe like seeing if he would pull out?!) to avoid pregnancy than abortion...twelve times. If you want to blame the guy for something, blame him for being equally stupid about the available options that would have prevented her turning a difficult life choice into a personal emotional circus.

And I don't care what legal age you are (16-115), the argument that someone else is to blame when you have too flimsy a grasp on your own life to make decisions you hold responsibility to is bunk. Again...none of this would be making a damn splash if he had been a 22-year old tutor. But because of the age difference, the article is able to pull the emotional near-pedophilia heartstrings of people who are more interested in empathizing with what a poor girl she must have been to have suffered through that decision of her own making rather than holding her responsible for her own actions without projecting life-blame on someone else.

And even if some personal life traumas affected her mindset, then we may as well rob everyone who has suffered anything horrendous from having the capacity to use their brain.



Level -> RE: 15 abortions for "Master" (10/30/2009 4:30:04 PM)

FR:

As someone that is pro-life, y'all can probably guess what I think of the whole shebang.



kiwisub12 -> RE: 15 abortions for "Master" (10/30/2009 5:23:16 PM)

At 15/17/18 years of age, i knew what i was doing. Now, why i was doing it was probably not so clear, but if you condemn someone because they don't know what impells them to do something, then most of mankind is in trouble.

and her relationship doesn't sound at all what i would characterize a "bsm" relationship. There doesn't seem to have been any discussion or bargining involved - it sounds as if she just fell into a sort of dominant type relationship, wheither or not that was what she wanted.

As for the abortions - it is as shocking as heroin addiction, or shopping addiction or any other addiction that ruins lives. A bit rarer, but no better or worse. She destroyed lives before they were aware, as opposed to alcohol addiction that can ruin lives that intersect the alcoholics.



slaveluci -> RE: 15 abortions for "Master" (10/30/2009 5:55:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear


Please....I was not intending to say you or anyone else was condemning the woman in the article! Just simply stated that as a male...I have no right indicating any woman should or shouldn't be allowed to do (x) with her body.


Yeah, I know. I wasn't reading anything accusatory or sinister into what you wrote at all[:)]. I just wanted to point out that I feel she is full of it for trying to blame anyone but herself for what she chose to do...........luci



barelynangel -> RE: 15 abortions for "Master" (10/30/2009 6:43:45 PM)

When i read the article the biggest thing that jumped out at me was her idea of control and

quote:

she feels a sense of control because she can start a pregnancy and she can end it.


So pretty much she got a high off of choosing that which may have a chance at life and that which may not.  It was a cycle for her -- not even a concept of birth control or an opps or what not but a cycle where she found control and a high over making a choice over something having a chance of living or not as a continual cycle.  My worry would be what if this "addiction" moved beyond the concept of pregnancy, for some i would think that choosing whether something has a chance at life or not on a continual basis and the exteme basis this woman has spoke of, isn't that far of a cry from choosing whether something living gets to continue or not due to the attempt to maintain control.

This whole idea really bothered me for this fact alone due to the continual times she repeated the cycle.  The rest -- simply a contributing factor that may cause someone to move from pregnancy and abortion to well i will just say it -- murder.  For some the ability to choose by taking a life is a very powerful thing.

I should mention that i am pro-choice and not anti-abortion.  But this cyclic concept she had going to me isn't a question about abortion or master or even the age issue with the author and her professors, this to me is a far more deeper issue that she has evolved an addiction that could very well be not so much as harmful to herself but if it esculates ....

angel



frazzle -> RE: 15 abortions for "Master" (10/30/2009 6:52:37 PM)

i started an answer.

gave up.

there isnt one.



Rhodes85 -> RE: 15 abortions for "Master" (10/30/2009 8:09:10 PM)

'I have heard of abortion fetish before and there is even a thread about it over on fetlife.'

Erm...while I try not to judge people for what their fetish(s) may be, there is such a thing as having to draw a line somewhere. Getting off on aborting your baby doesn't just cross that line it pole vaults 100 miles past it. My way of thinking is a persons fetish is fine so long as its not causing harm to themself or to others. This is doing both. I'd say this indicates some serious mental problems on her part. That being said....HE IS F*CKING 50 YEARS OLD. HE SHOULD KNOW BETTER! Seriously, hes just as responsible for this situation as she is.

'What kind of consent can there be between a 15 year old and a 50 year old? She was a kid from a fucked up home, mother suicided before her eyes, grandmother an uncaring murderer. The fact that he waited will she was 18 to physically have sex with her doesn't change the fact that he spent three years doing emotional abuse.

And for all she claims she was the seducer, that isn't true. She was a child. He knew that and took advantage of that. '

Exactly. I could not have said it better myself. He knew *exactly* what her problems were and what he was doing to her. If she is unwilling to control herself then *he* is old enough to know how to control himself. and he calls himself her 'Master'? He can't even protect her from herself and exploits her. As far as i'm concerned hes got no business even calling himself a man let alone a Master.

That being said, Nihilus, you make alot of good points there, but I do feel I should point out that while its not an excuse for what she did, she clearly has issues and he knowingly exploited her. I will concede that you are right that there wouldn't be nearly as much buzz about this had the guy been in his 20s rather than his 50s, and yes that is a double standard. However, whatever their respective ages, she has serious problems and he exploited them.



einstien5201 -> RE: 15 abortions for "Master" (10/30/2009 10:15:14 PM)

To all that have said that he took advantage of her because of her age and emotional immaturity:

At what point do you accept that a person is an adult and responsible for their own actions? Clearly a 1-year-old infant isn't responsible for his own actions, and presumably a 30-year old is. Assuming no mental health issues which would make her legally unfit to be her own guardian (and I haven't seen anyone claim so in this thread), and what point does she become responsible for her actions? At what point do you stop blaming the older man because he 'should have known better'?

Personally, I'd put that age at 15. I believe that at 15 I was mature enough and aware enough of the consequences of my actions to be held responsible for them. Do 15-year-olds always make the right choices? No. Do 50-year olds? No. Others believe that this age should be 21, or even older. We've decided as a society to have a tiered structure in which people pass from child to adult in stages. At 14-16, you can operate a motor vehicle. At 16-18, depending on the state, you can have sex. At 18, you can vote, smoke, join the military (willingly or otherwise), and get married without asking your parents. At 21, you can drink alcohol. At 25, you can rent a car (I know, this isn't legislative but a policy of most rental agencies). Overall, I'd say the age is 18.

I can accept that anything done before she reached that age (we'll call it the 'age of majority', isn't that something?) could be legitimately attributed to him, with all the consequences thereof. Once she reaches that age, and certainly for anything that occurred afterwards, she bears at *least* equal responsibility. Since our laws and culture have decided that abortions are entirely the province of the mother, with no provision for the input of the father, I'd say that the responsibility for those abortions rests squarely and entirely on her shoulders.

She's either an adult or she isn't. If she's not, she needs to be placed under the care of an adult who can supervise her, control her, and take responsibility for her well-being and the consequences of her actions. If she is, then she can take care of her own damn self and deal with the fallout from her bad choices. If she's not an adult, then he should be prosecuted for statutory rape for molesting a child. If she is, then who are we to judge the age difference? If she's not an adult, then clearly she's not mature enough to be allowed to have an abortion. If she is, then there's not a lot we can do to stop it. She is either an adult or a child, not both.

I'll grant that both people in this relationship acted abhorrently. The very idea of one person having fifteen abortions does two things for me: makes me want to vomit, and reinforces my belief that the procedure should be banned, permanently and without exception. But don't go blaming one person for the actions of another adult.



NihilusZero -> RE: 15 abortions for "Master" (10/30/2009 11:20:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: einstien5201

The very idea of one person having fifteen abortions does two things for me: makes me want to vomit, and reinforces my belief that the procedure should be banned, permanently and without exception. But don't go blaming one person for the actions of another adult.

Actually, I'd prefer exponentially incremental fines for repeat procedures which go to adoption and orphanage groups.



sophia37 -> RE: 15 abortions for "Master" (10/31/2009 4:30:07 PM)

Wow. I was a Syracuse university student as well. My one instructor met as a student, and married another of my instructors. So so far, this lady's story sounds true. Interesting. 



Falkenstein -> RE: 15 abortions for "Master" (10/31/2009 5:11:35 PM)

DesFip,

I have to agree with Nihilus zero.

Afterall, we all know that a 15 year old girl -- pardon me woman -- is perfectly aware of what she is doing, this is the reason why she can legally go in a bar and order a drink, sign legally binding contracts, drive a car or buy a gun.

Well at least in the USA, the retrograde Swiss would see her as a minor.

Also she provoked him, a man only 50, an age when emotions leave a man unarmed facing a 15 year old who unbutton her shirt (OK one button only, but the imagination of the man did the rest!). This diplomed but innocent lamb could not defent himself after four divorces!

She was a sexual predator who used her position as a student to coerce her professor in a M/s relationship, whith him as the Master.

And yes, if she were in the old age of 22, and him 57 it would not make any difference, she would be fully responsible and her master would not be responsible for anything that happened in their relationship. It was a consensual relationship afterall.

I have a slightly different view about where the bucket ends, but it is a different matter.

Be seeing you,

Henry






impishlilhellcat -> RE: 15 abortions for "Master" (10/31/2009 5:14:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

FR:

As someone that is pro-life, y'all can probably guess what I think of the whole shebang.




I'm pro-choice... But I feel you on this one. I think that kind of behavior is incredibly careless and selfish. I couldn't read the whole article.



tazzygirl -> RE: 15 abortions for "Master" (10/31/2009 5:16:02 PM)

Um.. is there no one but me doubting this story?



Falkenstein -> RE: 15 abortions for "Master" (10/31/2009 5:20:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: einstien5201

Since our laws and culture have decided that abortions are entirely the province of the mother, with no provision for the input of the father, I'd say that the responsibility for those abortions rests squarely and entirely on her shoulders.
quote]

This is a bit to easy, since, when the woman decides not to have an abortion, usually the man is left holding the financial bag, at least in my country where a man has to sustain any kids he sires.

Also the man, at fifty, and supposedly her "master" should have some influence above a woman 35 years younger and in a permanent relationship with her.

But again, I am rather old-fashioned and always tend to link dominance with responsibility.

Be seeing you

Henry



hlen5 -> RE: 15 abortions for "Master" (10/31/2009 6:12:24 PM)

I'm pro-choice and I find this revolting. 

I don't consider her "Master" culpable as a master but as a man. If you don't want kids WHY DON'T YOU GET A VASECTOMY???  How can you let your partner continue this ridiculous cycle???

She is equally responsible in this but it sounds as if she was addicted to abortions. Even as an addict, she is responsible for her actions.  



NihilusZero -> RE: 15 abortions for "Master" (10/31/2009 9:49:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falkenstein

Afterall, we all know that a 15 year old girl -- pardon me woman -- is perfectly aware of what she is doing, this is the reason why she can legally go in a bar and order a drink, sign legally binding contracts, drive a car or buy a gun.

Your sarcasm is nifty by itself. It would be nice if it had any substance behind it, though.

As I already mentioned, some readers (now you included) oddly seem to pick out the number "15" from that article which is tossed out specifically to bait people who want to use it to bolster their points by latching on to a lower number. "15" is the age used by the article to delineate when she left Puerto Rico. If you just wanted to latch onto a number in order to make the situation seem more exaggerated than it was, you could have grabbed the "8" from the preceding paragraph.


She was 16 when she made an advance on him, not 15. In more than half of the states of this country, she would have been considered to be of legal age to engage in sexual contact. Those are your country's law stating they view her as a sexual adult. New York's age of consent is 17. They still waited the additional year to have sex.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falkenstein

Also she provoked him, a man only 50, an age when emotions leave a man unarmed facing a 15 year old who unbutton her shirt (OK one button only, but the imagination of the man did the rest!). This diplomed but innocent lamb could not defent himself after four divorces!

So, why don't you tell the entire audience here what magic number symbolizes the age discrepancy that makes a relationship one-sided in terms of responsibility? If you want, I'll go find the couple on here who has the widest age gap between them so you can tell them to their face that you hope the older is the dominant partner, because the younger could not possibly know what xhe's doing.

What's your point, really? That this phantom "manipulation" you build your case on can only be a one-way street from the older to the younger in age?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falkenstein

She was a sexual predator who used her position as a student to coerce her professor in a M/s relationship, whith him as the Master.

You didn't read the article at all did you? Or at least not more than a skimming perusal in order to grab out the sensationalist pieces to make your appeal to emotion. There is nothing in the story that indicates anything genuinely M/s at all. The word "master" is used once and is followed by no suggestion that the word is used as anything WIITWD-related.

And she was a sexual predator. By her own admission! What are you going to do...tell the author she's lying?! I shouldn't have to go on to say that obviously this does not absolve him from any responsibility in the actions he chose based on hers, but you seem so intent on straw-manning the situation via subtle mockery that I can't be convinced you'd realize that obvious fact doesn't escape me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falkenstein

And yes, if she were in the old age of 22, and him 57 it would not make any difference, she would be fully responsible and her master would not be responsible for anything that happened in their relationship. It was a consensual relationship afterall.

Please reread the article. Please.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falkenstein

I have a slightly different view about where the bucket ends, but it is a different matter.

I think you're looking at the wrong bucket entirely.



SteelofUtah -> RE: 15 abortions for "Master" (10/31/2009 11:39:46 PM)

FR to no one inparticular after reading the entire article and trying to stay away.

My Views on Abortion are pretty Radical. When I start talking about them I tend to piss people off. I consider myself Pro-Responsibility. And YES I find the most common reasons for Abortion to be Irresponsible. Rape, Incest, and Faulty Contraceptives are Obviously no one's fault and no one should be forced to have a child they didn't want and/or tried to prevent.

I have an odd outlook on things and some of that comes from the fact that I get zero legal say in what happens with my seed. The Fertilization of the Egg was done by someone who gets no say in what happens afterward. The argument for Pro-Life and Pro-Choice goes right out the window for any and every man because no matter what they are not recognized legally until the child is born and then only to be given minimal visitation and financial responsibility made Mandatory. Still I know the argument for men who just up and walk away from their responsibility when it comes to a child completely overshadows the statistical view who view it as I do.

However this article is just a small snipit of the whole story. The washington post would not have printed a story unless the claims of the Publishers who said that all but 2 of the 15 abortions were confirmed. The relationship with the Professor was also confirmed although not by the professor himself. This did happen. The more shocking part is when you find out HOW common it actually is. Former Employees of Clinics around the world have been saying it for years! the problem is getting the proof when the topic is to be published because even free clinics still have doctor patient privledge and you cannot print someone's legal madical records without permission or a court order. With Abortion being such a touchy topic on capital hill which Judge is going to sign off on that one?

The Truth is my own Mother has had 3 abortions. When I found out I was very disappointed and angry mostly because of all the times she would talk about how simple and easy it is to use a condom. Truth is even those who know better make stupid choices and it ends with a choice that needs to be made. I personally think having to make that choice 3 times is 2 times to many but as I stated earlier I don't get a say because I have a Penis.

The first time they had sex she was 18. Anyone who missed that needs to go back and re-read the article. This means that not only did she know what the guy was all about she KNEW for TWO YEARS before the first time they had sex. Also the article never really discusses if he knew about the abortions before she told him which was after she had had the first 8 abortions and she admits after that nothing anyone said would have gotten through to her.

Oddly enough I am torn in two directions here. I am a recovering addict and her behavior is very closly related to Cutters and those who Cut for Control of emotional behavior. They offten state that when they cut themselves it gives the feeling that they are in control of the pain they feel and it brings them solace from the emotional roller coaster they would be on otherwise. The other part of me is screaming that she killed 15 people and should be labled a serial killer and not allowed to have or be around children because of how easily the idea of the "Being able to control the start and stop of a preganacy" could easily manifest itself into a Munchousens Biproxy (SP?) what happens when she needs to have that control again and this time drowns a child in the bath tub?

The Biggest Issue I have with this is that the Power Dynamic in the Book is atuomatically atributed to why she did what she did. I have yet to read the book but I DO know journalism and I can GUARAN-FUCKING-TEE you that if he had ever ordered her to have an Abortion it would have been in the article.

The Power Dynamic only told her that if she chose to have children then it would be over, and she was taking birthcontrol she just "Forgot" and so she kept getting pregnant.

Eh!? All I can say is that this happens more than this, and people should really take a look at what it means to be Pro-Anything because you are discussing RIGHTS and it is things like This that you have to be willing to be FOR or AGAINST if you choose a side because otherwise you are saying that someone gets to decide which is "Right" and which is "Woring" and who would get to do that? THE GOVERMENT.

Pro Lifers what happens when a Girl is raped and gets pregnant. Should she be forced to have that child?

Pro Choicers what happens if Abortion Fetishes Catches on? Should people be able to do things like in this article just because they should be refused the right to choose?

Double Edged Sword.

Steel



Lucienne -> RE: 15 abortions for "Master" (11/1/2009 6:27:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

Pro Choicers what happens if Abortion Fetishes Catches on? Should people be able to do things like in this article just because they should be refused the right to choose?



I'll put that on my "make contingency plan" list right after "how to handle unicorns stampeding through my neighborhood." I agree with you that this seems like a more extreme version of cutting. It's a sad story and the woman was (and probably still is) in need of serious therapy. And, yes, preserving reproductive freedom means what she did should remain legal, even though it is frowned upon.



SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: 15 abortions for "Master" (11/1/2009 9:54:36 AM)

I don't think it makes any difference if someone has one abortion or a hundred abortions. As a prochoice person you accept one abortion doesn't constitute any wrong doing so why would that principle change if magnified by one hundred? It may be against your taste but the law says it is legal so it is legal. It's a bit inconsistent to say 'oh one or two abortions is ok but I draw the line at fifty or one hundred'. It is her body to do with as she wishes, there is the question of her mental state or her endangering her own health but that is it. The prolife crowd should stop looking for extreme examples to prove no one should have a choice.



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