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Need To Drive Autos? - 11/1/2009 10:39:17 PM

DemonKia

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Is owning & operating an automobile a necessity? Is it optional? Outside of dense urban areas is it even possible to live the 'American lifestyle' (whatever that might be) without some minimum of car use by most individuals?

Reading thru another thread prompted this question, & it is aimed a little bit more at those in the US. I am interested in hearing other perspectives, however -- I just figure this question is most acute in the USofA . . . .

I'm posting this in Politics because it seems to me that the answer to this seemingly simple question impacts on issues such as global oil geopolitics, military interventions abroad, fossil fuels' role in anthropogenic climate change, the economy, & so much more . . . ...

There's a lot of potential issues connected to this & I'm leaving this deliberately broad, so feel free to riff on the topic . . . . . . Thanks!

[Edit for better.]

< Message edited by DemonKia -- 11/1/2009 10:40:24 PM >

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RE: Need To Drive Autos? - 11/1/2009 11:54:21 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Is owning & operating an automobile a necessity? Is it optional? Outside of dense urban areas is it even possible to live the 'American lifestyle' (whatever that might be) without some minimum of car use by most individuals?

Well, without getting into a convoluted semantic discussion on what constitutes "necessary," I'd have to say yes, an automobile is essential for most people in rural, semi-rural, or suburban areas. You can only haul so many bags of groceries on a bicycle.

For that matter, you could make a persuasive argument that even for people who do live in densely populated urban areas it's a necessity. I did without one for several years when I lived and worked in downtown Minneapolis, and it was doable because my office was only three blocks from my brownstone and I was in the middle of a network of bus routes, but still - the amount if time it required to run my basic errands like grocery shopping, doctor's appointments, and the like was such that not having a car was the equivalent of having a part time job that didn't pay me any money. I spent well over 20 hours a week just roaming around the Twin Cities on buses; long, tedious rides punctuated by even longer and more tedious waits at transfer points... it would take me three hours just to go grocery shopping, instead of the hour it would have taken if I'd had a car. Everything that would have been a ten-minute car ride was a 20-minute walk to a bus stop and 40 minutes on the bus, and then 40 minutes back, etc. It represented an enormous waste of time, and I had to forgo a lot of leisure activities because of it.

So yeah, I'd argue that it's pretty much of a necessity for anyone trying to lead a busy, active life. In most cities, anyway.

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RE: Need To Drive Autos? - 11/1/2009 11:58:55 PM

Termyn8or

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That could be a tough question. I have had my license suspended more times than Ole Faithful has erupted. Things used to be different. Nowadys non-drivers have acces to some sort of public transportation, but if you pose the question in a certain sense there is no distinction. Are you talking about people's personal dependence on driving, or are you includin those who get rides from others in one way or another ?

Neither one of my Grandmothers ever drove a car, but there were other ways to get around. My Father taught my Mother how to drive. She was well into her teens when they met. Driving a car never entered her mind until then.

But what of the farm boys who live 11 miles away from the nearest store ? Well in the old days there wer of course horses, later came bicycles and all that. Things changed. I know people who will take a forty mile walk to this day. Also my Grandfather WALKED all the way from Pennsylvania to California and back in his younger days.

Things change, walking that 11 miles even, when ther kids are hungry and Wife needs a pound of butter to cook, or we need fuel for the heater, or whatever. People used to find ways to get by, to do without. An old joke I only kinda remember - Young Man asks Old Man what they did when they had no money and couldn't afford something, the old Man replies "Without". I mean if it got too cold while Daddy was walking back with the kertosene for the heater, they would most likely find something to burn in the fireplace. But people do not have fireplaces anymore, not usually. Even if they do it is a poor way to heat a house, the whole family would have to stack up right in front of it, but that is how people lived.

If we are to take advantage of the benefits of modern society, we must remember that alot of people didn't even have a furnace. I have lived on a farm and had to help shovel the drive, which was literally covered with a layer of snow taller than I. It was time to go to the store. The owner of the farm got into his Pontiac and I thought he was crazy, but he did know how to drive in this shit, the driveway just happened to catch a drift. The road was not as bad.

So it is not just the lack of a car or license that can impel people back to the old ways, cold Ohio winters can do the same thing. The difference these days is now we are ill prepared for it. Indeed inclement weather is bad on horses and buggies as well. Perhaps moreso.

People were pretty self sufficient at one time, and in time we have become weak, in that we are dependent upon creature comforts afforded by other. I don't mean who pays, but a true metphor, remember when the power went out in damnear half the US ? What did you see on the roads ? Stranded cars, because no matter how much money people migh have in their pockets, the pumps would not pump without electricity. So this is kind of the same thing.

That was an interesting day. I grabbed about a hundred bucks and stocked up on beer and smokes. At the store I found the owner, gun in holster at his side. I am sure he would've rather closed, but remember no power, his coolers wouldn't run of course. So he stayed open and sold his current stock, but I'd bet you couldn't get a two penny nail up his ass with a ten pound sledge. Not only were all the cameras and alarm system worthless, even if someone did call the law, under these circumstances what do you think their response time would be ?

We have become so dependent on modern advances, there might not be a way back. I depend on my car and I break the "law" evey time I drive it. I will not stop, and if they ever get me I will tell them so. In fact I was once in jail with a guy who did just that. His work required him to drive. Not to get paid for driving which meant he would have to be legal, but he had to get to the job, he was a bridge painter.

And speaking of bridges, if we depend on cars we depend on bridges as well. In Cleveland here there are several bridges connecting the east side to the west side (which was called Ohio City at one time). Going crosstown was almost like going to another country in Europe. Now it is a mile a minute breeze. Not during rush hour though.

As far as our dependence on oil, well I wouldn't have gotten very far without it. I used to love having a sleeper. By that I mean a Camaro or something that is rumbling the ghround, even shaking my car still only had a smallblock in it. I would be ahead in milliseconds, and keep my lead because I had a bigblock. I could pass anything but a gas station. We are tling about mid eighties here and was spending close to a hundred bucks a week on gas.

That was back when a car was a toy. A car is no longer a toy. Not to me, and unfortunately not to most of the young out there.

But then America had sort of a love fest with the car. Everybody seemed like they wanted the fastest car. Drag racesw were common. Some people had N2O in their daily driver. Most of them were not late getting back to work after lunch. And crosstrown traffic is the reason I only work six hours a day, I am not fighting that shit.

Perhaps appropo for this thread is a mention of Ransom Eli Olds, the founder of Oldsmobile. In the very early 1900s about, gasoline was a waste product, he figured out how to use it and the world changed. That is not to say similar reseach was not going on inb other parts of the world, I mention Olds because he did it here.

We are born into certain times. In a few year the you will not have ever heard of an Oldsmobile, and they will never ask "Daddy, what does Oldsmobile mean ?". They have been born out of it, and can't rercall what never was, just as we don't know who made the best carriages before there were cars. Actually we do, it was Duesenberg, but that is neither here nor there when it comes to the point. The point is that the question will likely never be asked, and therefore the answer will not be given.

We have changed, we are weaker. We are dependent. We awould be a disgrace to our ancestors I think. We can't live without all this shit, and don't want to. We have embraced the life into which we were born, and I really think there is no going back.

T

(in reply to DemonKia)

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RE: Need To Drive Autos? - 11/2/2009 12:06:09 AM

Aneirin

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After my day's excursion on saturday to a town 25 miles away taking three and a half hours to get there and five hour to get back with a cost of £81 in total, I have decided public transport where I live is just not viable, I need transport of my own, ideally a car.

Also around here, public transport at the weekend quits at midnight, from that time until around seven or eight in the morning, Devon is effectively shut if you don't have your own transport.

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RE: Need To Drive Autos? - 11/2/2009 12:58:22 AM

DomKen

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I lived without a car for many years, I live inside the city of Chicago. It is still cheaper and faster for me to ride the "L" to work downtown. I only drive my car to do errands on the weekends and for a few out of the city trips per year.

Too much urban planning has been under the assumption that people will simply drive everywhere. Going back to a situation similiar to many older urban areas where commercial areas are interspersed with or surrounded by residential areas so that many of the basic chores of life can be done on foot would be beneficial in many different ways.

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RE: Need To Drive Autos? - 11/2/2009 1:09:04 AM

Termyn8or

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So Ken, again you inadvertently seem to agree with me. The old way was better.

T

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RE: Need To Drive Autos? - 11/2/2009 4:27:32 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

So Ken, again you inadvertently seem to agree with me. The old way was better.

T

Do not for one second confuse my opinions on urban planning and enviromental issues to be at all related to your disgusting racial views.

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RE: Need To Drive Autos? - 11/2/2009 4:43:09 AM

Aneirin

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The trouble is, if you only move around inside the bounds of a conurbation, you hardly need your own vehicle, as public transport is usually very good and has options. But if you live a bit further out in the sticks, travel from one place to another becomes more difficult and I believe the belief is that most people now have cars, so useful and regular public transport between places will not make any profit, so it doesn't happen. This of course leaves the minority stuck, but here at least, public transport is about profit, not so much public service.

We, well the masters of the country would like to have a public transport system on a par with many European countries, that will get the people out of their cars, but what they forget, is many European countries as far back as the end WW2 invested straight away in public transport systems, so now they have the skills and the infrastructure. Britain on the other hand, did what it always did, profit before service, so we have missed the boat on this one, what we want cannot happen, as major change and funding will be needed, something no one will put in, if there is no profit to be made.

Too many times I hear it from auto owners, they would rather ditch their expensive and problematic private transport, but they can't, as public transport is just not good enough, there is no viable alternative. If places of work are going to be outside of the immediate area in which you live, you are going to have to travel, and that is that.

Maybe, if the thought is to go back to the old ways, perhaps it is worth understanding, what were the old ways, and how has the conditions of the old ways existence has changed. Bigger populations, less local jobs, your employment desires, local industry now defunct, their are many factors why we cannot go back to an easier, less stress time.

Oh, and something else from my excursion on Saturday, the returning home expedition, I was stuck walking the streets of Newton Abbott trying to think up a solution to my dilemma. Picture it, after one am, drunk people everywhere post Halloween parties at clubs, not wearing a great deal in some cases, very scary for me, it being the five year aniversary and all, to the night, but no trouble, not from anyone. It was cold, and beginning to rain, but all people wanted to do, was go home, but they couldn't, as there was no transport, the buses had quit at 23 30 and the trains at 21 30. So people, drunk people milling around in the town wanting to go home, but no transport save the private cabs, who were being very selective and very mercenary in their actions. I came to the understanding, issues of town violence, the so called after effects of binge drinking are largely exasperated by the fact people can't get home to go to bed.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 11/2/2009 4:53:44 AM >

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RE: Need To Drive Autos? - 11/2/2009 6:34:47 AM

pahunkboy

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Yes- one needs a car in the US.

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RE: Need To Drive Autos? - 11/2/2009 7:00:27 AM

TheHeretic

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I live in a desert community with a population density of 51 people per square mile (a bit higher in my particular square mile, but you get the idea). You either have a car here, or you are not a functional, contributing, member of mainstream society.

I would do better hitch-hiking, than trying to use what public transportation exists here, and bicycles don't do well in 40 mph cross winds (plus, anyone over the age of 20 on a bicycle in these parts is automatically assumed to be a recent parolee from the state prison).

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RE: Need To Drive Autos? - 11/2/2009 7:09:53 AM

Irishknight

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There is no public transportation in my town. There is also no way without a vehicle to take sick orinjured horses to the vet. So, YES, I absolutely have to have a vehicle.

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RE: Need To Drive Autos? - 11/2/2009 7:16:17 AM

sappatoti

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As to the original question of having the need to drive autos, that depends. My mother doesn't drive and never has learned, yet she still gets around. She has learned how to negotiate with those of us around her that do drive so she is able to get to where she needs to go. As for her being able to get out of her house for recreational reasons on her own, she's stuck. There are no mass transit options where she lives, no taxis, and although she does have an electric scooter to go short distances with, the fact there are no sidewalks or recreation trails nearby means she'll have to operate on already too-narrow FL back country roads.

So, it becomes a question of what the definition of "need to drive" is.

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RE: Need To Drive Autos? - 11/2/2009 7:39:58 AM

LaTigresse

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Here in Iowa, with questionable public transportation and wide spread communities, yes it is very necessary.

Even if I moved into Iowa City, I would still need a car and 4 wheel drive truck. Not to mention, I would be living in a much crappier house (properties in town are significantly pricier than further out) and not be living a lifestyle that fulfills me.

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RE: Need To Drive Autos? - 11/2/2009 7:46:27 AM

wandersalone

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ugh I struggle with this question and have done for the past year. Where I live now the city has a pretty awesome public transport system and in my current job I catch the train to and from work so my car is mostly used just on weekends. So do I need my car.... no.
But do I want my car.....a resounding yes. The one thing it gives me is freedom to get in and drive to nowhere in particular when I am feeling down or need to clear my head.

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RE: Need To Drive Autos? - 11/2/2009 8:00:28 AM

Missokyst

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We now have 1 car in my family. This did not start out to be intentional but it has gone on now for 5 yrs. I require my car because I am a mobile service tech. My girls do not need a car, but they still think about getting one. My son's don't have one. My oldest son is in Japan and uses military transport when he is off the ship. My youngest is living in another state (metropolitan) but chooses to work near his apartment and rides a bike or walks, rain or snow. My girls work near home as well and can easily walk to and from. They use my car for necessities.

One car cuts down on gas, insurance, upkeep and has the added benefit of lower life costs since none of us just picks up and drives off. When we lived in San Diego we walked, or rode bikes, or took public transit.. very doable in a large town. Here though.. no car is not entirely possible. Munches and pervy events can often be too far to make things doable. No part of me wants to ride a greyhound 120 miles and back.

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RE: Need To Drive Autos? - 11/2/2009 8:18:58 AM

pahunkboy

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We had a bus in this small town. But it went under.

I lived in Chicago- the southwest suburbs and I can tell you the mass transit was very slow. It took a good 2 hours to go downtown- and longer to get home. Then the buses do not run all night- so if you miss the last one too bad. The CTA ended and one had to take the RTA. There is no L to the southwest suburbs.

When I lived in the inner city I had a car. The city tho was very quick to issue tickets- and if someone scraped your car passing by- too bad. Even if you kept your car A1- one stray pothole could swallow the muffler or worse.

I used to know where the secret parking areas were- you know do an errand and be back before a tow- but I am told they now are extremely quick to tow.

I don't want to live in a city and even now- I would like to move further out.

I have 2 cars- tho one is not on the road. But it is there for an emergency....it is not worth selling of junking because it is a pick up truck- which means I can haul with it.

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RE: Need To Drive Autos? - 11/2/2009 9:03:53 AM

Termyn8or

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FR

Ken, come on now that wasn't racist at all.

Anyway, in this day and age, with all the issues associated with driving it is a good idea to reduce our mileage. They're fighting wars and killing people to get us enough gas, to do what ? Take joy rides ? I used to do that, but those days are pretty much over. Time was you bought a used car for a couple of hundred bucks, spent maybe $15 to fix it up and found some plates to throw on it and you were mobile, oh, and ten bucks was enough gas for the weekend. Try that today folks, it just don't work.

People used to move to cities because everything was convenient, the drive to the store was five minutes. Now the only place you CAN'T drive is the city because of traffic jams. In some areas it is not so wise to walk either. People have tried to rob my friends walking home from a party ay my house. Surprise surprise though, well you would have to know them, suffice it to say thusfar no attempted robbery has succeeded.

On the other hand I wouldn't want the Womenfolk in my family walking around the inner city. I guess in that way I am a sexist as well, but reality is again upon us. If they won't pack a gun, at least they need a car. The guys who leave my house at 2AM with a half a case of beer in them can fend for themselves, but that doesn't mean everybody can. So there is also a safety factor.

Times have changed for the worse, but things were never perfect. In 2009, you might not like it but if you want to go cross country you stay up all night, sleep ½ the day away and leave at like 3 AM to miss the rush hour(s). You then turn on the CD player and the AC. In 1809 you got into a hot smelly stagecoach, and had to watch for robbers, villains of every type and maybe even Injuns. The trip could take weeks. Now if you are not afraid of a speeding ticket you can make it from Ohio to Florida in about 13 hours. By 1909 you could drive you flivver just about anywhere, but a stone on the road (if any road) could flatten two of your tires. Now with steel belted radials you can drive over scrap metal with impunity. We take alot for granted. With all these advances no matter how cold it is, because of electronic fuel injection and extremely high volume oil pumps you just get in and drive. People used to have to warm up their car, actually going back in the house with the engine running and drink another cup of coffee. Not today. Jump in and peel out.

And as much as we might bitch, driving is not that expensive. You can get a car that'll last you a couple years for a few grand. Even if you have a tree killing driving record insurance doesn't go much over two grand a year. And in light of that which seems steep, gas is cheap. It's like 1,800 miles to FL from here, even at four bucks a gallon, that's less than $300, and you can pile as many people in your car as you like, even by using osmosis. Multiply up all those bodies and apply the cost of airfare, train, or even bus tickets and it is clear why some people still will take the drive.

Like I said, there is no going back even if we wanted to.

T

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RE: Need To Drive Autos? - 11/2/2009 9:24:44 AM

pahunkboy

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I tho- think much of the nonsense driving stopped for many when gas hit $4- and in my case- I did not return to the before type of driving.

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RE: Need To Drive Autos? - 11/2/2009 9:27:07 AM

LaTigresse

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When you live an hour's drive from anything worth driving to.....you tend to think before hopping in the car.

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RE: Need To Drive Autos? - 11/2/2009 9:46:34 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Is owning & operating an automobile a necessity?

Out of my cold dead hands.

K.

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Post #: 20

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