Death penalty, another angle

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Termyn8or -> Death penalty, another angle (11/4/2009 10:40:09 PM)
So we have a serial killer discovered in Cleveland. Not the best way to gain notariey but, oh well. Now, the death penalty has been discussed many times, and many people come out and say that it is uncivilised and generally a bad thing we should never ever do. A quick look at recent developments is in order. He was already a registered sex offender. He had the guile to operate for some time, IIRC from 2005 until now. That's about one every three months. He already was a registered sex offender, and was out of jail/prison. What did he do the first time ? Do you think some little girl fell on his face and her panties fell down or some shit ? They don't mark you for life like that for accidents. It's amazing in real life how many people may oppose the death penalty in a case like many others, but not this. Almost a dozen people died instead of one. Most people will be alot less voiciferous in their objection to the death penalty in this case. Why ? Well of course it is obvious. However it is also obvious that if he got executed the first time, there would be less dead victims. Is his life worth more than their's ? Bleed your heart out because this poor little soul had to kill ten people to get his jollies. And now go to the victims' families and do the same thing, plead his case. See how far you get. What's more what if they ID one of the bodies as one of your lost loved ones ? Can you still argue against it ? You can say all you want that they should get life without the possibility of parole, but that is not logical. Want it logical ? YOU pay for it. If you say they are sick and in need of help, help them. The quickest way is the electric chair. They will be cured instantly. Do that and others would not have to die. And who knows what happened before he killed them ? What kinds of things was he doing to make it so important that there were no witnesses ? Or was it a strange fetish that they die ? A group in Russia was busted for selling tapes of babies getting raped and killed. It did not make the major news. But they were purportedly getting about $10,000 - 20,000 per tape when they sold them. As sick as it may be it happened. My question is what kind of person pays that kind of money for something like that ? So back to this guy, a scant few miles from me, who warranted the death penalty. He was not only busted before, now he has shown that he CAN beat the system and get away with killing our people and who knows what else ? That is by definition a predator, and by the Law of Life we have every right to kill predators. What say you now ? Indeed, what say you now ? T

Rule -> RE: Death penalty, another angle (11/5/2009 2:36:45 AM)
He will probably be released from prison to become an FBI informant (used as a cover by the FBI or other organizations when they want to recruit a felon from prison to do their dirty business). See here.

housesub4you -> RE: Death penalty, another angle (11/5/2009 3:44:17 AM)
I use to support the death penalty, but it really serves no purpose. It does not deter crime, it cost the taxpayers millions as we must foot the bill for their defense. I say life in prison, no parole and let them rot. However to make room for him we would have to let out some of the people in there for smoking pot. That never made sense to me, he got out as a sex offender, but others charged with crimes such as smoking pot have to serve 90% of their sentence. Go figure. I make this statement after working for years as a prison guard, seeing violent prisoners released for good behavior while others serving for non violent crimes serve their whole time.

SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Death penalty, another angle (11/5/2009 4:13:18 AM)
I don't see how the op is taken from a different angle as all these arguments have been covered before. People that oppose the death penalty aren't interested in specific cases where the system as a whole failed. It's a bit academic also because registered sex offenders don't receive the death penalty just for being sex offenders so talking about the death penalty in this case would have prevented ten deaths is nonsense. Unless perhaps he had been released on parole after killing and if that is the case people need to look at the system and ask themselves why he was released at all if a threat to society?

DesFIP -> RE: Death penalty, another angle (11/5/2009 4:22:04 AM)
It's difficult to support the appropriateness of killing someone for killing someone else. Plus if you wait a few years, you usually find that once the immediate grief is over, most family of the murder victims do not support this. If they who are the most affected do not want vengeance, then who am I to? I'd prefer to be Abel, not Cain.

DomKen -> RE: Death penalty, another angle (11/5/2009 6:19:29 AM)
The ultimate rebuttal to any and all arguments in favor of capital punishment: Cameron Todd Willingham.

Irishknight -> RE: Death penalty, another angle (11/5/2009 7:55:01 AM)
If it were my child or my family member, I would say "let him out. I'll be waiting." The state will save money and justice will be served. Then, I will serve out whatever sentence I recieve with a smile on my face.

pahunkboy -> RE: Death penalty, another angle (11/5/2009 8:05:05 AM)
A former FBI director paints a bleak picture over most of our elected officials. being involved in things that we would - fry them for. So some searching for details- as it is too extreme to post here.

OttersSwim -> RE: Death penalty, another angle (11/5/2009 8:13:45 AM)
We all live in societies with social compacts that we all live by - either openly or by tacit agreement. Societies create rules and laws to foster the creation of order and allow people to get on with life generally unhindered. If you take my property or move a boundary marker on my land, that social compact allows me recourse to protect myself from you, and vice versa. To my mind, the death penalty is the ultimate expression of that social compact. If you stray too far from the accepted behavior, society will move to protect itself from you - violently. As it should be to my thinking. Are the places where the system goes wrong? Yes, certainly. But it is a price all societies have to pay in order to maintain order. Putting a convicted murderer in prison at the expense of $40K per year with gyms, cable, libraries, free medical care...-that- is where the system is going wrong. If they televised executions, the fact that it is a very real consequence would permeate much deeper into society...

SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Death penalty, another angle (11/5/2009 8:32:48 AM)
Clever; I see what you did there by going from land disputes to state sanctioned killing, even though killing is against the laws of society. So in your property example you put your fence in the wrong place to grab someone’s land and the government takes all of your land away?

OttersSwim -> RE: Death penalty, another angle (11/5/2009 8:47:50 AM)
No. In my example, the social compact gives me another option if you take my possessions or move a boundary marker on my land -other- than taking my club or my gun and either bashing your head in or shooting you in the foot. That sort of activity does not make for much of a -civil- society, nor a civilized one. We live in societies with social compacts of behavior that allow us all to get along reasonably well. There are currently less than a handful instances in the U.S. that can get you killed by the state - convicted murder and treason...(there may be more, but I don't have time to research it right now). So yes, if you proceed to break those capital offenses by slaughtering people or betray your country, the state can and should in my opinion, kill your ass as dead as a stone.

SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Death penalty, another angle (11/5/2009 9:00:17 AM)
Well my personal view is as a society accepting that you can't shoot people in the foot and bash them in the head with a gun means that the government also can't do that to you for any reason. You can rationalise hypocrisy all you like but at the end what you'll be left with is a society telling you how it wants you to act and then acting itself as it sees fit. I think the op mentioned bleeding hearts for criminals but the reality is we in civilised society seek to set ourselves apart and live to a higher standard than the criminal. So when the government kills for my supposed benefit it only shames me and reflects me in the same light as the original killer. We imprison people for life because that is harder than killing and the cost of that life imprisonment is the price we pay to be able to say I'll not sink to your level and kill for convenience. I'm glad you also mentioned treason: Treason such as whistle blowing, on whose authority is it treason?

flcouple2009 -> RE: Death penalty, another angle (11/5/2009 9:28:22 AM)
quote: Cameron Todd Willingham quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP It's difficult to support the appropriateness of killing someone for killing someone else. Plus if you wait a few years, you usually find that once the immediate grief is over, most family of the murder victims do not support this. If they who are the most affected do not want vengeance, then who am I to? I'd prefer to be Abel, not Cain. Where do we get this from? All I know is that when I was working in news I helped with the coverage of several executions. There was never one in which there were not members of the immediate family there who not only wanted to see the execution happen but still wanted to help do it. One here in FL, the guy had murdered a child. It was 20 years before his execution. There is now a park that was named after the child. The family of the child threw a huge celebration in the park right after the execution. It was to celebrate the memory of the child and also to celebrate that the execution finally happened.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Death penalty, another angle (11/5/2009 9:36:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim Are the places where the system goes wrong? Yes, certainly. But it is a price all societies have to pay in order to maintain order. That one paragraph is where your entire argument comes completely apart. If that were true, how would you explain the fact that every country in Western Europe has much lower homicide rates than the US, without having the death penalty? Clearly there is a way for societies to protect themselves against predators without having to pay that price.

OttersSwim -> RE: Death penalty, another angle (11/5/2009 10:10:21 AM)
You could argue that it is because most of Europe is a disarmed society, but that would not be accurate. Even before Europe disarmed its population the murder rate was lower - even from non-gun related murders. Perhaps it is system of government, perhaps it is how Europeans are socialized in their societies, the age of the societies... No, the U.S. society tends to be more violent than others in the "first world". I am sure that there are a large number of reasons for it and not a single reason that fits. And that there are mistakes made in the system is part of an evolving process. With DNA testing now active I believe that the number of wrongful executions will be reduced. Yes, wrongful executions. I said it and it has happened and I still support the process because I believe that taking a life demands an ultimate penalty. All those bodies didn't just appear in that guy's yard and if convicted he should pay that penalty.

OttersSwim -> RE: Death penalty, another angle (11/5/2009 10:12:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3 Well my personal view is as a society accepting that you can't shoot people in the foot and bash them in the head with a gun means that the government also can't do that to you for any reason. You can rationalise hypocrisy all you like but at the end what you'll be left with is a society telling you how it wants you to act and then acting itself as it sees fit. No, because if the majority of our population does not agree with what they are doing, we will either vote the rascals out, or in the event they become tyrannical, we will take back our government by force.

LadyPact -> RE: Death penalty, another angle (11/5/2009 10:27:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim Are the places where the system goes wrong? Yes, certainly. But it is a price all societies have to pay in order to maintain order. That one paragraph is where your entire argument comes completely apart. If that were true, how would you explain the fact that every country in Western Europe has much lower homicide rates than the US, without having the death penalty? Clearly there is a way for societies to protect themselves against predators without having to pay that price. Panda, are you still against the death penalty, even in cases like this? With bodies literally in the man's yard (and I believe home)? If they execute this guy (which I'm sure will take years to go through the appeals at his disposal on taxpayer dime) I highly doubt it's going to come back later that he didn't do it.

Aylee -> RE: Death penalty, another angle (11/5/2009 10:29:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim You could argue that it is because most of Europe is a disarmed society, but that would not be accurate. Even before Europe disarmed its population the murder rate was lower - even from non-gun related murders. Perhaps it is system of government, perhaps it is how Europeans are socialized in their societies, the age of the societies... No, the U.S. society tends to be more violent than others in the "first world". I am sure that there are a large number of reasons for it and not a single reason that fits. And that there are mistakes made in the system is part of an evolving process. With DNA testing now active I believe that the number of wrongful executions will be reduced. Yes, wrongful executions. I said it and it has happened and I still support the process because I believe that taking a life demands an ultimate penalty. All those bodies didn't just appear in that guy's yard and if convicted he should pay that penalty. Yep, the murder rate is higher in the US. But. . . have you looked at the other crime rates? Especially property crimes?

kdsub -> RE: Death penalty, another angle (11/5/2009 11:48:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: housesub4you I use to support the death penalty, but it really serves no purpose. It does not deter crime I stopped reading your post here... you are wrong...Do some searching on the net for repeat murder offenders...It will be eye opening. It would be hard to kill again from the grave. Butch

pahunkboy -> RE: Death penalty, another angle (11/5/2009 12:31:52 PM)
There are always more of these guys. Then there are those who never get caught. We never will get the last one. With all of Clevelands problems sort of interesting it took this long for someone to flip out.

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