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RE: I would love to go to this some day. - 11/6/2009 8:09:51 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Politicking has always been allowed in churches.


Allowed by who? I was of the understanding that Federal Tax Exemption status prohibited politicking in church.

Or are you just wise-cracking about my Wall comment?


A non-profit organization (churches are one) can NOT support or oppose a canidate.  They can support or oppose a position or issue.  They can also host speakers running for an electable position.  Individuals can support or oppose a canidate as well.  As long as the organization itself does not.

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I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: I would love to go to this some day. - 11/6/2009 8:10:43 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Numbers of nonbelievers seem to be growing rapidly in the Western World, especially in Europe. It is not atheists who build grand cathedrals and mega churches, who drape their Princes in plush robes and golden rings and sit them on elabortate thrones, or who preach the "Gospel of Prosperity" as homage to modern casino capitalism.

Let me get this straight you think it's a good thing that modern man walks the globe and leaves nothing of notoriety around beyond their death but global warming and plastic bags? You may be right one day future generations will look back and say "look this was the century atheism swept through the globe and there was an upsurge in convention centre building."

I'm the first to be critical of religion but the last to say that building something as a homage to something or someone shouldn't be done. Those great cathedrals are amazing inside and out built not just for function but for atmosphere. These days Architect's only care about what it looks like on the outside and what they need to make room for inside. I think that is sad that nobody really wants to create a living building anymore i.e. a place with a spirit or atmosphere that takes your breath away when you walk inside to see the unnecessary magnitude before your eyes. I only get that similar experience from the modern built environment in terms of bridges or other mega structures and that is only because they need to be that big for function.


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 11/6/2009 8:12:14 AM >

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RE: I would love to go to this some day. - 11/6/2009 8:16:57 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule


(from the gnosis archive)
GNOSTICISM is.. based on Gnosis, the knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of interior, intuitive means.... Gnosticism expresses a specific religious experience, an experience that does not lend itself to the language of theology or philosophy, but which is instead closely affinitized to, and expresses itself through, the medium of myth.

a·the·ism   (ā'thē-ĭz'əm)
  1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
  2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
So in other words my personal spiritual experience has nothing to with gods or theism. In fact I *know*, through my own spiritual experiences, that there are no gods. In my personal spirituality gods are characters invented by people to personify truths that are beyond description. I don't need those characters. I have felt the truth under them. Mythology is powerful symbolically. It is not, however, *true*. God exists only in our minds. And all religions are equally false and equally true.




Isn't it true that atheism is not only the disbelief in gods but also the disbelief in the supernatural world including spirit and/or soul? If you read any on the contemporary neo-atheists, I think you will find this true. They do not believe personality survives the death and decay of the body. I wonder if gnostic atheism, as you defined it, is not a contradiction in terms. I would appreciate clarification.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: I would love to go to this some day. - 11/6/2009 8:30:06 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


Isn't it true that atheism is not only the disbelief in gods but also the disbelief in the supernatural world including spirit and/or soul? If you read any on the contemporary neo-atheists, I think you will find this true. They do not believe personality survives the death and decay of the body. I wonder if gnostic atheism, as you defined it, is not a contradiction in terms. I would appreciate clarification.


Ask 12 atheists and you will get 13 answers. 

Abstract concepts are not the same as, say a horse.  One can point to a horse and use it as a referent.  "This is a horse," and have everyone agree that the object and the referent match. 

There is no coporeal "atheism" or "gnosticism" to point to and use as an object to get a consenses for the referent. 

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: I would love to go to this some day. - 11/6/2009 9:04:50 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Numbers of nonbelievers seem to be growing rapidly in the Western World, especially in Europe. It is not atheists who build grand cathedrals and mega churches, who drape their Princes in plush robes and golden rings and sit them on elabortate thrones, or who preach the "Gospel of Prosperity" as homage to modern casino capitalism.

Let me get this straight you think it's a good thing that modern man walks the globe and leaves nothing of notoriety around beyond their death but global warming and plastic bags? You may be right one day future generations will look back and say "look this was the century atheism swept through the globe and there was an upsurge in convention centre building."


Just a minute. Let me look again. No, I did not say any of those things. Checking again. Nope, that wasn't what I said. I don't see how you can attribute the issues of GW or plastic pollution to a discussion of atheism/theism, but your last line was amusing.

Implicit to what i said is my belief that these grand sturctures, golden thrones, and rings to be kissed are notorious monuments to individual or collective Ego down through history. The corollary to atheism is humanism. Modern man can leave much of note to future generations by striving to relieve suffering from disease, poverty and war. I note and applaud the religiously affiliated NGOs who are at work in that effort. Do not lay the blame for two thousand years (more really) of neglect upon atheists, however. The work of the affiliated NGOs does not excuse the centuries of horror committed in the name of Religion or recently in the name of Communism which oppressed religion and humanity.

quote:

I'm the first to be critical of religion but the last to say that building something as a homage to something or someone shouldn't be done. Those great cathedrals are amazing inside and out built not just for function but for atmosphere. These days Architect's only care about what it looks like on the outside and what they need to make room for inside. I think that is sad that nobody really wants to create a living building anymore i.e. a place with a spirit or atmosphere that takes your breath away when you walk inside to see the unnecessary magnitude before your eyes. I only get that similar experience from the modern built environment in terms of bridges or other mega structures and that is only because they need to be that big for function.


I cannot speak to what contemporary architects care about. Styles come and go as do the economics to support grand structures. The ancient Cathedrals were built as I understand it during the Medieval Warming, during the good times. But I don't know if they benefited the peasants as much as they benefit today's tourists and the local t-shirt emporium. The great spacious contemporary cathedrals were also built during the modern economic "good times" of the 1980s and 1990s, isn't that so? I am suggesting that favorable economic times are necessary precursors to architecture of soaring atmosphere, and atheism is not a distractor. I would suggest that MacroEconomics is a more likely impetus to soaring spirit than atheism/theism. I welcome more info.

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: I would love to go to this some day. - 11/6/2009 10:14:58 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Politicking has always been allowed in churches.


Allowed by who? I was of the understanding that Federal Tax Exemption status prohibited politicking in church.

Or are you just wise-cracking about my Wall comment?


A non-profit organization (churches are one) can NOT support or oppose a canidate.  They can support or oppose a position or issue.  They can also host speakers running for an electable position.  Individuals can support or oppose a canidate as well.  As long as the organization itself does not.


Thank you. That's clear enough until specific candidates become associated with specific ideas, then the difference is obscured for all practical purposes. i.e. Our religious institution is anti-abortion. Oh btw this candidate is anti-abortion but we are not suggesting we support his/her candidacy. Snark!

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: I would love to go to this some day. - 11/6/2009 10:26:21 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Status: offline 		No economics have little or nothing to do with it. People built such structures because they had this grand belief that is what they were requested to do from a higher authority. Look at the length of time it took to build St Pauls cathedral. look at the cost for the time, economics at the time would not have stopped them in fact it took so long because they had little or nothing to do it with. Compare this with modern practice where the funding absolutely has to be in place before anything is built and you'll see grand statements need more than economic stability. A bit like the pyramids in Egypt were built with slave labour and so didn't need positive economic conditions.

As for leaving a world free from disease and suffering you might like to thank previous generations for a lot of what you have now in the west as these things didn’t just happen in the last couple of decades . Sadly these things such as clean drinking water, although perfected for us during Victorian times, still can’t be exported to the rest of the world. Thus I don’t yet count them as world changing events because they’ve only changed a part of it.


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 11/6/2009 10:50:21 AM >

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RE: I would love to go to this some day. - 11/6/2009 10:53:45 AM   
Hierodule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Isn't it true that atheism is not only the disbelief in gods but also the disbelief in the supernatural world including spirit and/or soul?



I never said I believe in the soul or an after life. I do not believe in those things. Although putting it into words really diminishes it I will try:

(warning: the following is a personal belief that was come to through observation and  intuitive means. It is in no way presented as *truth* feel free to reject it as nonsense.)

We are human. Ee live in a body. Our brain is an organ that uses our senses to interpret the world around us. When we die that organ dies too. And our power to perceive goes with it.

While I don't believe there is anything beyond our material universe. No heaven no hell no "other world". I do believe there are real physical forces within our universe that we can't understand or perceive with our limited senses. Our senses evolved for our survival on this planet and nothing more. Of course there are forces we can't perceive. Does the fact that we can not perceive these forces make them "magic" or "supernatural" No it does not.

Just because we can not perceive these forces do not me that they do not exert influence on us. I believe that every once in a while a human "catches a glimpse" of something that is beyond it senses. They see the effects of the force rather than the force its self.  Because the forces are so beyond their perception they mistakenly interpret them as "spirtual" or "magic" The only way for their limited brain to attempt to explain this glimpse is through symbolism, and  paradox because their language is even more limited than their senses.  That attempt to explain what is beyond us is mythology. And later became religion.

Our bodies are made of particles that were present during the big bang. Thats not fantasy hocus-pocus that is fact. Matter can neither be created or destroyed. We were there man! We were there through it all!

Think of it this way: A water strider lives on the surface of a lake. The water below her and the air above her are so unaccesible to her that they might as well be other dimensions. She is unaware of the fish beneath her yet she can feel the vibrations of their aproach and she nows they mean death. She can not see the branches above her head but if one were to fall and strike her, it would take her life. Are the branch and the fish "spiritual" forces because she can not perceive them? No. They a physical forces that exert influence on her yet she can not perceive them. If the water strider was self aware and aware of death like humans, there might even be a tradition of water strider myth that falsely classified "the death from above and the death from below" as magical things. These myths are based in truth but are not themselves true


< Message edited by Hierodule -- 11/6/2009 10:56:27 AM >

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RE: I would love to go to this some day. - 11/6/2009 11:02:36 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


Isn't it true that atheism is not only the disbelief in gods but also the disbelief in the supernatural world including spirit and/or soul? If you read any on the contemporary neo-atheists, I think you will find this true. They do not believe personality survives the death and decay of the body. I wonder if gnostic atheism, as you defined it, is not a contradiction in terms. I would appreciate clarification.


Ask 12 atheists and you will get 13 answers. 

Abstract concepts are not the same as, say a horse.  One can point to a horse and use it as a referent.  "This is a horse," and have everyone agree that the object and the referent match. 

There is no coporeal "atheism" or "gnosticism" to point to and use as an object to get a consenses for the referent. 


Just a sec, Aylee. My comments were directed to Hierodule who self-defined as a "gnostic atheist" which seems a contradiction in terms to me mainly because she limited the definition of atheism to belief/disbelief in gods. Clearly, if she were to read Richard Dawkins for starters she would see that her definition is troubled.

As far as I can make out all Atheists reject the existence of the supernatural and/or spiritual world. Hierodule seemed to imply that she was privy to an enlightenment of a spiritual existence absent gods. I would like clarification from her. I suspect she is competent to provide it if she chooses.

It happens that I have enough maturity and education to understand the difference between abstract concepts and concrete concepts. I also understand that abstract concepts are subject to reason and debate. I agree there are varying degrees of atheism all the way from the atheistic agnositic "I don't know that we can know." to the militant atheist who declaims the supernatural completely, but in either case none of them would bet the farm on the existence of a supernatural world and still call him/herself an atheist. Let's not engage is sophism here. Is you is or is you aint an atheist?

But there are also degrees of "horsedom." If the referent has stripes is it a horse or a zebra? What makes the referent a horse other than what we have agreed upon is the ideal abstraction of a horse and how closely the referent matches the abstraction? Which came first, the horse or the idealized horse?

And by what criteria do you classify and agree upon the identity of the referent? Bad enough to have to deal with classes of rocks but what do you use in the living world? Appearance as Lamarck did, or DNA similarity? What is the difference in reality between a horse, a donkey, a zebra, and a mule? And how about wolves, foxes, coyotes and breeds of dogs? And cats....lions, tigers, puma, etc Appearance or DNA sequences?

The thing is not always what you think it is, whether it is abstract or concrete. It's just a friggin jungle out there.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: I would love to go to this some day. - 11/6/2009 11:07:34 AM   
Hierodule


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Status: offline 		did you see my response?

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RE: I would love to go to this some day. - 11/6/2009 11:26:38 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Isn't it true that atheism is not only the disbelief in gods but also the disbelief in the supernatural world including spirit and/or soul?



I never said I believe in the soul or an after life. I do not believe in those things. Although putting it into words really diminishes it I will try:

<big snip>

Our bodies are made of particles that were present during the big bang. Thats not fantasy hocus-pocus that is fact. Matter can neither be created or destroyed. We were there man! We were there through it all!

<big snip>



Thank you, Hierodule. You make a lot of sense to me. I love your use of poetic imagery to express wonder at the swirl of matter, energy and chaos that make up this particular Universe (hey, there may be others!) If someone where to suggest I try to classify your thinking, if i could indulge that privilege, i would call you a poetic atheist. It is not unusual for atheists to speak the way you do about the marvelous Universe and of our accidental existence.

You and I differ only on your last statement. True, mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed by ordinary means but is constantly rearranging. These are the forces of Nature. Mass/energy was present at the beginning of time but i was not. i was reconstitued later.

Thank you for repying, H.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: I would love to go to this some day. - 11/6/2009 12:16:12 PM   
vincentML


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ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

No economics have little or nothing to do with it. People built such structures because they had this grand belief that is what they were requested to do from a higher authority. Look at the length of time it took to build St Pauls cathedral. look at the cost for the time, economics at the time would not have stopped them in fact it took so long because they had little or nothing to do it with. Compare this with modern practice where the funding absolutely has to be in place before anything is built and you'll see grand statements need more than economic stability. A bit like the pyramids in Egypt were built with slave labour and so didn't need positive economic conditions.


A quick read of the history of the construction: Old St Paul's was begun by the Normans in the 11th Century, interrupted by a fire, interrupted again by a change of plans, and completed in 1314 right at the end of the Great Medieval Warming and the beginning of the Little Ice Age... the end of good times especially in agriculture and the beginning of harsh winters.

The place was in poor condition when it was destroyed by the fire of 1666. Wren received the commission in 1668. They wrangled over his models for nine years. The first stone was laid in 1677. The building was completed 30 years later in 1708. Would you have me believe that England was not a growing, bursting, colonizing economic and military power during those thirty years? St Pauls was just one of fifty churches commissioned to be rebuilt after the fire. Hardly a third world country.

quote:

As for leaving a world free from disease and suffering you might like to thank previous generations for a lot of what you have now in the west as these things didn’t just happen in the last couple of decades . Sadly these things such as clean drinking water, although perfected for us during Victorian times, still can’t be exported to the rest of the world. Thus I don’t yet count them as world changing events because they’ve only changed a part of it.


Oh they could be exported quite easily to the rest of the world except for greed, racism, and politics. The Victorians had every opportunity to share with their colonies in South Asia and Africa. Except, you know, those wogs were inferior. I love Victorian Science but their humanity not so much.

Oh and why is there so much suffering? If God is omnipotent and benign why does he allow so many innocents to suffer so? Where is his mercy and justice? Not on this planet I would guess. Or is it available only to those inspired by a "higher calling" to build great cathedrals?

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: I would love to go to this some day. - 11/6/2009 12:51:06 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

I'm the first to be critical of religion but the last to say that building something as a homage to something or someone shouldn't be done. Those great cathedrals are amazing inside and out built not just for function but for atmosphere. These days Architect's only care about what it looks like on the outside and what they need to make room for inside. I think that is sad that nobody really wants to create a living building anymore i.e. a place with a spirit or atmosphere that takes your breath away when you walk inside to see the unnecessary magnitude before your eyes. I only get that similar experience from the modern built environment in terms of bridges or other mega structures and that is only because they need to be that big for function.


I agree wholeheartedly -- it's time to start re-CREATING. When most of the movies coming out are remakes of decades-old stories (and often present little improvement over the original if any), most of the books are repeats of a single theme with minimal variations spread between a plethora of mediocre authors, and buildings going up look like 1940s Quonset huts, run $300,000 and fall into disgusting disrepair in just a couple of years of normal wear... well... somewhere, somehow, we need to find a way to create again.

In my mind, this is the thing that truly marks human existence, is our ability to create... if we throw that away for cookie-cutter, off-the-rack, and assembly-line facades, then we squander one of our most precious resources.

(BTW, my first new project when I relocate to the east coast will be a cooperative project with my sons and their families-of-choice, to create Earthships, as handmade lodging and common facilities for our (large) poly family. I can't wait to see what we come up with!)


DC


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RE: I would love to go to this some day. - 11/6/2009 12:58:48 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

Isn't it true that atheism is not only the disbelief in gods but also the disbelief in the supernatural world including spirit and/or soul?


I know that this isn't the case for me. I am a-theistic ("without god", as in, I don't believe, worship, follow, acknowledge, or seek out any gods), but I do believe that we are more than just a collection of conveniently compressed carbon molecules. I believe that the energy that makes us up has a 'memory', that this supply of energy is adaptable and manipulable, and that there is a part of us that extends beyond the physical shell in which we reside. I also believe in the theory of conservation of energy, and so, I believe that the energetic forces that power this shell and house its store of knowledge will not be lost when the body decays, but will be released to be recombined to meet other universal needs over time.

A-theism, strictly speaking, really only addresses the issue of whether or not one believes in or seeks out a god or gods... variations may stretch into nihilism or other variants, but a-theism has no requirement other than not believing in the existence of any god. (BTW, for those who say they aren't sure about whether there's a god, that fits into the category of 'a-gnostic' or "without knowledge")


_____________________________

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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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RE: I would love to go to this some day. - 11/6/2009 3:21:47 PM   
Hierodule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

Isn't it true that atheism is not only the disbelief in gods but also the disbelief in the supernatural world including spirit and/or soul?


a-theistic ("without god", as in, I don't believe, worship, follow, acknowledge, or seek out any gods)



that is, in all fairness, the DEFFINITION  of the word. Not that other meanings are wrong they are simply personal and subjective.

< Message edited by Hierodule -- 11/6/2009 3:23:58 PM >

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RE: I would love to go to this some day. - 11/6/2009 4:19:59 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

Isn't it true that atheism is not only the disbelief in gods but also the disbelief in the supernatural world including spirit and/or soul?


I know that this isn't the case for me. I am a-theistic ("without god", as in, I don't believe, worship, follow, acknowledge, or seek out any gods), but I do believe that we are more than just a collection of conveniently compressed carbon molecules. I believe that the energy that makes us up has a 'memory', that this supply of energy is adaptable and manipulable, and that there is a part of us that extends beyond the physical shell in which we reside. I also believe in the theory of conservation of energy, and so, I believe that the energetic forces that power this shell and house its store of knowledge will not be lost when the body decays, but will be released to be recombined to meet other universal needs over time.


Hello Calla; some responses if i may.

1. as far as i know no atheist has ever said we are just a collection of conveniently compressed carbon molecules. The neoAtheists are protegees of Charles Darwin. There is nothing "convenient" about the process of Darwinian Evolution. It is quite amazingly complex and hazardous; it has lead to a lot of errors; and it has required at a minimum 3 billion years on this planet.

2. I know of no evidence that energy has a memory. I suspect you are trying to equate energy-memory with soul or spirit. Speaking of the evolution of human brain function, Steven Pinker wrote "There is no ghost in the machine" meaning the brain is the totality of its interconnected neurochemical pathways, blood vessels, tissues, etc. I apologise if i misread your comments.

3. I agree. The part of us that extends beyond the physical shell is called creativity, imagination, curiosity, fear, love, loathing, inventiveness, and art (it is a long list)....we are truly amazing creatures of the evolutionary process.

4. I agree, the energy of our bodies will not be lost. It is constantly leaving and being renourished. I agree also it combines with other energy for other purposes over time. But those purposes are not determinative. The energy will be useful only if it falls into a purposeful formulation. There are no guarantees. It may just swirl in eternal chaos.

5. None of the above gives reason to expect that personality (ego) survives death of the brain.

quote:


A-theism, strictly speaking, really only addresses the issue of whether or not one believes in or seeks out a god or gods... variations may stretch into nihilism or other variants, but a-theism has no requirement other than not believing in the existence of any god. (BTW, for those who say they aren't sure about whether there's a god, that fits into the category of 'a-gnostic' or "without knowledge")



Strictly speaking doesn't work for me here. It is just a dictionary definition that has little real world application. Strictly speaking, there are too many follow up questions.

If i believe in a god then i believe in a supernatural world, in the forces of a supernatural world, in what effect these forces may have on me, how may i appease or influence these forces, where is this supernatural world, what place do i have in it, when will i be in it, how should a believer live this life and prepare for the next, etc.

If i disbelieve then what do i believe about the human condition, what is the basis of my morality, my ethics, what purpose can i find for my life, etc

It all gets a bit more complicated when one closes the dictionary and begins to read either side of the issue. the question really is: What is human life with/without a god?

Thanks for the opportunity to talk, Calla. I look forward to your reply.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: I would love to go to this some day. - 11/6/2009 4:24:48 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

Isn't it true that atheism is not only the disbelief in gods but also the disbelief in the supernatural world including spirit and/or soul?


a-theistic ("without god", as in, I don't believe, worship, follow, acknowledge, or seek out any gods)





that is, in all fairness, the DEFFINITION  of the word. Not that other meanings are wrong they are simply personal and subjective.


I agree with you, Hierodule, the dictionary definitions are too limited and not very useful. One must get beyond definition to MEANING.


_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Hierodule)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: I would love to go to this some day. - 11/6/2009 4:26:44 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		"3. I agree. The part of us that extends beyond the physical shell is called creativity, imagination, curiosity, fear, love, loathing, inventiveness, and art (it is a long list)....we are truly amazing creatures of the evolutionary process. "

Except they dont extend beyond the physical shell.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: I would love to go to this some day. - 11/6/2009 5:33:40 PM   
Hierodule


Posts: 597
Joined: 9/22/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Mass/energy was present at the beginning of time but i was not.


Sorry, I was being a hippie weirdo! I do bot believe that conciousness or personality can exist beyond before or after the body. But there is just something so beautiful about the idea that every single particle that makes up my body was there.  Its soooooo cooooool!

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: I would love to go to this some day. - 11/6/2009 6:12:37 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Mass/energy was present at the beginning of time but i was not.


Sorry, I was being a hippie weirdo! I do bot believe that conciousness or personality can exist beyond before or after the body. But there is just something so beautiful about the idea that every single particle that makes up my body was there.  Its soooooo cooooool!



* vincentML just smiles and nods in appreciation.......

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Hierodule)
Profile   Post #: 40
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