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Pavlovian response - 11/7/2009 3:03:23 AM

Aanakaris

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There was an interesting post regarding fetishes and how they are acquired. But what about training a sub/slave to enjoy the same things the Dom does?

Are you a reward based trainer (do it right and you get to cum), a lesson based trainer (here's the manual, if you have a question, ask me.), or Pavlovian (I always give you Velveeta cheese while fucking so you associate nachos with sex).

I have done the Pavlovian to teach a sub to enjoy anal play and it worked remarkably well, but I am curious how others train.

Do you really even train or just try to find a partner who already has the habits you wanted and just reinforce them?

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RE: Pavlovian response - 11/7/2009 5:51:33 AM

DesFIP

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He found someone compatible in the first place. Because it's important to him that I enjoy it. He feeds off of my energy so if I'm suffering through it for his sake, I don't have any energy to give him.

Beyond that, you couldn't reward me with an orgasm if you had just done something I disliked to me because I wouldn't be aroused. Women aren't men, our libidos are much more complex.

And although I like books, I'd be angry and disturbed if he threw a manual at me instead of teaching me himself, breaking stuff down step by step and watching as I mastered each one. Spending that much time teaching me, being patient when I get stuck, finding a new way to explain it, being proud of me when I finally grasp it, that for me inspires love and devotion. Throwing a manual at me and not being willing to spend the time and focus on me instead of watching tv? Total turn off and I wouldn't even try to figure it out. I would drop it during the second chapter if I bothered to open it.

I see you've obedience trained a dog with the reference to cheese. What breed do you prefer?

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RE: Pavlovian response - 11/7/2009 7:31:48 PM

AcademyForSlaves

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It is possible to train a slave to share your interests if you make it enjoyable for the slave. Rewarding the slave with what the slave likes and including that reward in the process of doing your own fetish, makes it fulfilling for both. For example, I love being served, but if My slave has a foot fetish then I will wear sandals, have the lotion nearby, and allow the slave to kiss My feet as I eat the dinner they cooked for Me. BDSM is not necessarily a one way street for the dominant to take advantage of. The slave does have to want to be there so must be considered as well. We are not living in ancient Rome.

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RE: Pavlovian response - 11/7/2009 7:38:24 PM

sravaka

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quote:

Pavlovian (I always give you Velveeta cheese while fucking so you associate nachos with sex).

Question: is the goal here to cause the slave to get horny in the presence of Velveeta? Or to be thinking about cheese while you're fucking him/her?

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RE: Pavlovian response - 11/7/2009 7:39:55 PM

sincityprincess

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If my Master enjoyed something I wasn't particularly fond of, I might be able to learn to enjoy it simply because it is something that brings him enjoyment.

Whether or not the fetish of his actually became a true fetish of mine would likely be insignificant, pleasing my Master is my fetish.

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RE: Pavlovian response - 11/7/2009 7:47:18 PM

AcademyForSlaves

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sincityprincess

If my Master enjoyed something I wasn't particularly fond of, I might be able to learn to enjoy it simply because it is something that brings him enjoyment.

Whether or not the fetish of his actually became a true fetish of mine would likely be insignificant, pleasing my Master is my fetish.

A very good point. This is why I prefer a slave who likes servitude. The slave finds fulfillment in fulfilling My interests and needs.

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RE: Pavlovian response - 11/7/2009 7:56:37 PM

Lockit

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I try to find someone who is a good fit with me... which means, adult, intelligent, self sustaining, mature, fun and funny and someone I can respect. Any training I do is in how I want things done and caters to who we each are and how things can flow between us. I will use all sorts of ways to bring things about, from treats, fun and kinky, to instruction from my lil booklet of life and centered around stimulus that I think will be fun or interesting. Whatever works for whoever it is I am with. Then there is 'just becasue I said so' and that works just fine for me. lol

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RE: Pavlovian response - 11/8/2009 2:40:42 PM

leadership527

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When I speak of "training", I think of the meta-level from where you are. I am training to be a better submissive, not to do specific things. What "being a better submissive" means to me is that she learns to be more submissive and more accepting of that role where that is the right choice, and conversely, less submissive and more accepting/comfortable with dominance/conflict when that is most called for. In other words, I want to train her to fit herself better into the the various situations she finds herself in.

I figure if I take care of the high-level, she'll be able to work out how I prefer my tea or sex or whatever. I mean seriously, she's a bright woman.

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RE: Pavlovian response - 11/8/2009 9:24:41 PM

Missokyst

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This is what I considered a Pavlovian response.

We had this electric remote control box. The box had 4 controllers for various items attached to my body.
A shock controller had a buzzing sound.
There was also a button that was purely sound with no shock at all.

It got to the point where I associated the buzz with a shock. So he could shock me, but often he only needed the sound to produce the same effect.

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RE: Pavlovian response - 11/9/2009 5:43:44 AM

CaringandReal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

quote:

Pavlovian (I always give you Velveeta cheese while fucking so you associate nachos with sex).

Question: is the goal here to cause the slave to get horny in the presence of Velveeta? Or to be thinking about cheese while you're fucking him/her?

Some dominants have a queer sense of humor, so for them, the first would be true.

Granted, this wasn't the greatest example in the world, but it does get across the point of what Pavlovian means. A very common and quite achievable use of pavlovian techniques is to associate sexual pleasure with intense pain, to the point where the subject cums when tortured. This connection makes a bit more sense than Velveeta cheese horniness and is often equally amusing.

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RE: Pavlovian response - 11/9/2009 9:39:44 AM

Aanakaris

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The cheese comment was just random to show what Pavlovian could be used for, not anything in particular that I have done.

The closest to a true Pavlovian training I have done was with a sub who only tolerated anal play because I liked it. So for one month she was forbidden to orgasm unless there was something in her ass, finger, toy, my cock, whatever. At the end of that her body began to respond just to the anal play. A couple weeks later when I was giving her a choice of rewards for accomplishing something great, she asked for an ass fucking instead.

I did read a detailed account of how a master trained his sub to orgasm when urinating. But I have no proof other than it was on the internet that it's true.

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RE: Pavlovian response - 11/9/2009 9:52:57 AM

VAneophyte

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aanakaris

The cheese comment was just random to show what Pavlovian could be used for, not anything in particular that I have done.

The closest to a true Pavlovian training I have done was with a sub who only tolerated anal play because I liked it. So for one month she was forbidden to orgasm unless there was something in her ass, finger, toy, my cock, whatever. At the end of that her body began to respond just to the anal play. A couple weeks later when I was giving her a choice of rewards for accomplishing something great, she asked for an ass fucking instead.

I did read a detailed account of how a master trained his sub to orgasm when urinating. But I have no proof other than it was on the internet that it's true.

Both Pavlovian and Skinnerian models can be adapted in sex play. In fact your pairing of anal and orgasm is more Skinnerian (operant) conditioning than Pavlovian in that the behavior (Allow anal penetration) is followed by reward (orgasm). All BDSM is conditioned response training often long behavior chains are formed over time.

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RE: Pavlovian response - 11/9/2009 11:15:06 AM

sravaka

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quote:

The cheese comment was just random to show what Pavlovian could be used for, not anything in particular that I have done.

Sorry, Aanakaris. My question in response to the cheese comment was mostly for the sake of silliness.

But I was also remembering a long ago D-type who decided that he was going to exploit the fact that I smoked to make me more comfortable with a sex act I had longstanding difficulty with. His idea seemed to be that if I thought about the act whenever I smoked, and/or smoked in connection with the act, somehow I'd end up addicted to the act. In reality, it made me want a cigarette when I thought about the act without particularly changing anything in my thoughts/feelings/reactions to the act itself. Which meant there was something wrong with me (bad sub! not trying hard enough!) rather than the method. (This is making me laugh again.)

I can see how linking pain or other unpleasantness to arousal, or shock to sound would work..... Nicotine and nachos I'm less sure about. :-)

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RE: Pavlovian response - 11/9/2009 4:30:55 PM

PainfullyCurious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aanakaris

The closest to a true Pavlovian training I have done was with a sub who only tolerated anal play because I liked it. So for one month she was forbidden to orgasm unless there was something in her ass, finger, toy, my cock, whatever. At the end of that her body began to respond just to the anal play. A couple weeks later when I was giving her a choice of rewards for accomplishing something great, she asked for an ass fucking instead.

Now that's interesting.

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