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RE: Are men becoming less submissive? - 11/8/2009 4:54:36 AM   
CarrieO


Posts: 2432
Joined: 1/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcademyForSlaves

With the increasing violence in movies, video games, and society, and with the internet being full of porn and giving easy access to wank material, do you find that men are becoming less submissive, more selfish and demanding, and less respectful of Mistresses and all women in general? Are men becoming less submissive and more selfish fetishists?


I think society in general is suffering from an influx of sources that suggest the only way to succeed is to be selfish.  I feel this has little to do with age and gender and more to do with how our society defines personal success. Look at what the media offers as entertainment...not the violence and porn but many reality shows that focus on being the last one standing (no matter how cut-throat you need to be to get there), people acting as caricatures of themselves in order to be tv stars and a rise in what MarcEsadrian described as "social retardation" and "the raising of all things swine."
That being said, I believe it's always good, before we go pointing fingers, to look to our own lives and find ways to bring change and be a better example. In the end the only person we can control is ourselves.

Within a bdsm context, I agree with LadyPact in that what was taboo is now mainstream...sex sells and bdsm is now seen as yet another form of "better sex" for many.
I'll be the first to admit when I had my first experience with a dom (switch here, for those who wonder) it was all about sex because that was what I thought bdsm and D/s was.  The more I learn from and talk with people who live D/s as a lifestyle choice and not as a sexual choice, the more I've come to appreciate the protocols, manners and am able to see beyond "better sex".  Not to say sex doesn't have a place in a D/s relationship for me...far from it...just that now I have a better understanding of my priorities within that relationship. 

My experience so far with submissive men has been of the bottom/sexual submissive type (which I'm finding to be less and less attractive for me) and I've found many (if not most) of them have been greatly influenced by porn images of dominant women and therefore their expectations are for a "Bitch in Heels".  However...since their ages have ranged from 25-58, it doesn't seem as thought this do-me attitude is strickly related to age or generational influence.

As for men becoming less respectful of mistresses and women in general...I believe respect is something you earn and not some that is automaticly given.  A man will respect a woman...be she dominant, submissive or whatever...if the woman in question inspires respect.  Personally, I don't respect a label or title, I respect a person and that happens over time not instantaneously.  I believe this goes for both inside and outside the bdsm context.

< Message edited by CarrieO -- 11/8/2009 5:51:37 AM >

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RE: Are men becoming less submissive? - 11/8/2009 5:40:29 AM   
thishereboi


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RE: Are men becoming less submissive? - 11/8/2009 5:44:37 AM   
thishereboi


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Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcademyForSlaves

stickman, I agree with your opinion. Indeed some people will be selfish, or violent, regardless of their learnings, surroundings, aging, influences, etc, because they are already drawn to it.

However, some are more easily influenced than others. It is a known fact that some men copycat crime, some even admit to being inspired and influenced by porn magazines and movies. Yes, some movies, books, video games, etc have been known to influence people. It is those who are so easily influenced that concern Me. But you made a good point. Perhaps it is only those who already harbour those interests deep within themselves who can become influenced by evil they see in the world around them.

So the question is still, is this present day violent and selfish world possibly creating more selfishness in some submissive men?


Do you think it effects submissive men more than dominant men? What about women, are they getting more selfish because of it?


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RE: Are men becoming less submissive? - 11/8/2009 5:53:20 AM   
kccuckoldmist


Posts: 97
Joined: 7/1/2009
Status: offline 		“The good old days weren’t always so good and tomorrow isn’t as bad as it seems” – Billy Joel, Keeping the Faith

It just seems like today is worse then before because that appears to be a problem with getting older that we can fall into the trap of over romanticizing our youth. In our youth we tend to be more positive and have more ability to have an open mind and heart and for many people as we get older we tend to close these two things and also begin to judge more things and more things severely.

For instance you can go back easily a century and read and listen about people complaining about the music younger generations listen to, worse manners they have and lack of respect they have for their elders. Many psychologists believe that fear is at the heart of this often negative thinking.

I do not think people have changed at their core all that much but will agree that modern technology and the way we live have altered the landscape and this has caused to me a bizarre and to a certain degree an ignorant and selfish hurdle to overcome in all types of relationships. We have become a society that has increasingly needs less and less social interaction, human contact and what not in order to live and get by. This has led too many of our desires and expectations to get too easily out of whack.

My impression after getting back out there after over thirteen years of not having to look and never on cyber is not that men are less submissive or less respectful but the expectations of both men and women is instant perfection in what we want our other to be. This is even more so when people choose cyber to find their other as their expectations for the other often are too utopian and their own desires and issues that have an impact on how they connect, attract and get along with others get completely dismissed by them as they reinvent themselves as a more utopian model in cyber.

I think men are like they have been but now there is simply an expectation of a finished product in an unrealistic manner for a submissive male to be instead of finding a man rough around the edges but compatible and molding and training him to our ideal submissive man.


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RE: Are men becoming less submissive? - 11/8/2009 7:47:49 AM   
gentlemanprince


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Joined: 5/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ladylocks

Explain to him right off the bat that he's not your boyfriend and that he never will be. Add protocol to ensure he is reminded of his place. A chastity device keeps you in charge of any sex between you and is a constant reminder of his role in your life.



That may be your idea of a good relationship, but it sure as hell isn't mine:  I want a lover, friend, partner-in-crime, and, yes, submissive, all rolled into one.  What you describe just leaves me cold.


Bingo. 

I can be submissive without being fawning and subservient and much prefer it that way.  Any woman who needs me to behave that way to bolster her ego isn't worth my time.  I want a relationship with all that entails.

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RE: Are men becoming less submissive? - 11/8/2009 7:50:14 AM   
slavekal


Posts: 1486
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		That is a very hard question to answer.  It is possible.  But on the other hand, all the available porn might make men more calm.  Might lessen some of that submissive frenzy that is sometimes talked about.

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RE: Are men becoming less submissive? - 11/8/2009 10:02:13 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kccuckoldmist

“The good old days weren’t always so good and tomorrow isn’t as bad as it seems” – Billy Joel, Keeping the Faith

It just seems like today is worse then before because that appears to be a problem with getting older that we can fall into the trap of over romanticizing our youth. In our youth we tend to be more positive and have more ability to have an open mind and heart and for many people as we get older we tend to close these two things and also begin to judge more things and more things severely.

For instance you can go back easily a century and read and listen about people complaining about the music younger generations listen to, worse manners they have and lack of respect they have for their elders. Many psychologists believe that fear is at the heart of this often negative thinking.

I do not think people have changed at their core all that much but will agree that modern technology and the way we live have altered the landscape and this has caused to me a bizarre and to a certain degree an ignorant and selfish hurdle to overcome in all types of relationships. We have become a society that has increasingly needs less and less social interaction, human contact and what not in order to live and get by. This has led too many of our desires and expectations to get too easily out of whack.

My impression after getting back out there after over thirteen years of not having to look and never on cyber is not that men are less submissive or less respectful but the expectations of both men and women is instant perfection in what we want our other to be. This is even more so when people choose cyber to find their other as their expectations for the other often are too utopian and their own desires and issues that have an impact on how they connect, attract and get along with others get completely dismissed by them as they reinvent themselves as a more utopian model in cyber.

I think men are like they have been but now there is simply an expectation of a finished product in an unrealistic manner for a submissive male to be instead of finding a man rough around the edges but compatible and molding and training him to our ideal submissive man.



I happen to agree with the portion that I highlighted above.  We are a fast food society in a lot of ways and I'm not just talking about McDonald's.  We have become so used to getting everything we want, the way we want, and gosh darn it, that means right now.  LOL.

There are a lot of things that are at our fingertips today that weren't necessarily there prior.  Along with the internet, which obviously everyone reading this thread has access to, I'll bet a number of us also have cell phones, microwaves, TiVo, and much more that put everything literally right there so we can have what we want immediately. 

The ironic part about that is, in ways, it's coming back to bite us in the bum.  I think in some cases, we want it to work the same way in personal relationships as well.  Not just the D/s type, but even things such as friendships.  We don't seem to want to invest the time to cultivate those attributes that build healthy interactions with others.  The things you can only have if you've made an honest time investment with another person.  It's exactly why we have coined such phrases as 'velcro collar' and other wonderful terms.




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RE: Are men becoming less submissive? - 11/8/2009 10:13:10 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


Posts: 3506
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From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		FR to op.

To answer the op you'd have to believe submission was truly altruistic which is isn't. Selfishness and submission go hand in hand some of the time if not most of the time.

I always thought the key was in knowing how to use that need/desire to submit to your advantage. All people are selfish but only some get what they want or expect. etc.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 11/8/2009 10:18:39 AM >

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RE: Are men becoming less submissive? - 11/8/2009 10:17:28 AM   
Venatrix


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Joined: 11/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

That is a very hard question to answer.  It is possible.  But on the other hand, all the available porn might make men more calm.  Might lessen some of that submissive frenzy that is sometimes talked about.


I'm going to disagree with you on this.  I think, if anything, it's had the opposite effect.  Submissive men look at BDSM porn and say, "Ooooh, I want some of that.  Gimme, gimme, gimme."  When I was really fed up with my search, I'd write back to men and tell them that I was only interested in friendship and that kink would be part of any relationship only once the friendship was firmly established.  Guess what?  Never heard back from them.  The one person who approached me only looking for friendship is now looking forward to a kink-, affection-, and friendship-filled Christmas visit.  As am I.

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RE: Are men becoming less submissive? - 11/8/2009 10:28:55 AM   
Lashra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian
I see overall a decline in manners in both sexes, even from my shallow reference point of the seventies. I know it is the thing to do often in adulthood, to look narrowly upon the younger generations and find error with morals, upbringing, etc., but I'll have nothing to do with that; those my age and above are just as guilty.

As for men, one might say the art of chivalry is a dying one, and with that, naturally, the theater for a man to express submission with civil dignity. It's easy to see why if you care to look around. We have gone to great lengths in marketing iconoclasm to ourselves and raising all things swine as the new "real". Our social retardation overall seems to be increasing, and there are many reasons for this—too many for me to undertake writing about, because if I do I won't leave my chair until 4:00am. For this reason, I hope you forgive my brevity on the matter.


I have to agree with this. I think it is lack of manners that are making most PEOPLE seem more violent, aggressive and just plain dumb. I prefer a man with manners who treats me like a Lady and those types of men are getting harder to find. I am lucky that at my age most males were taught manners at home, many these days are being brought up without any manners (females are as well). So society as a whole is taking a down turn and we have only ourselves to blame. It is parenting skills that are lacking, something that really needs to be taken seriously and in order for kids to learn manners they look to their role models...their parents.

~Lashra

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RE: Are men becoming less submissive? - 11/8/2009 12:49:50 PM   
MarcEsadrian


Posts: 852
Joined: 8/24/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra


quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian
As for men, one might say the art of chivalry is a dying one, and with that, naturally, the theater for a man to express submission with civil dignity. It's easy to see why if you care to look around. We have gone to great lengths in marketing iconoclasm to ourselves and raising all things swine as the new "real".


I have to agree with this. I think it is lack of manners that are making most PEOPLE seem more violent, aggressive and just plain dumb. I prefer a man with manners who treats me like a Lady and those types of men are getting harder to find. I am lucky that at my age most males were taught manners at home, many these days are being brought up without any manners (females are as well). So society as a whole is taking a down turn and we have only ourselves to blame. It is parenting skills that are lacking, something that really needs to be taken seriously and in order for kids to learn manners they look to their role models...their parents.


I underscored what you said here, as I believe it can't be said enough. Wolfgang Gruener on Single Parent Gossip writes that roughly 95% of what children learn is sponged up from example, not direct instruction. It would probably come as a bit of a shock for many proud parents to consider that their child's absent manners, disrespect and belligerence is in fact coming from no other source than their own parenting.

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RE: Are men becoming less submissive? - 11/8/2009 6:01:02 PM   
steve5353


Posts: 7
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline 		Yes I believe that there are less truly submissive men because there are so many "wanna be" dommes that truly are not into the lifestyle. And like the saying goes, "Kids and dogs know". So likewise do submissive men know. In five seconds I can meet a woman who is a real domme and know it because a real domme looks straight inside your eyes and heart. Where a "Wanna be" looks at your clothing and sizes you up for money

In fact I dress down or casual to meet a domme for the first time. A real domme will find out the real me and then maybe an hour later or at least before she dismisses me she will reprimand my for not dressing better but she already knows why I did not and she does not make a big deal out of it.

There are so mann takers, and haters, and users, and losers out there now a real submissive gets completely discouraged and even eventually gives up that search. It is sad for domme's and even sadder and lonlier for the true submissive

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RE: Are men becoming less submissive? - 11/8/2009 6:17:53 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Nobody ever said it would be easy to find a partner that would be a good fit. I don't know where the saying came from or when, but it is said you have to kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince. I would assume that since I remember that saying from childhood, that it was a long time ago. It must have been true for someone to say it and other's to keep saying it and remains true today. Only I don't kiss them to find out if they are a prince.

I can remember my mother and I having lots of disagreements about men. I wanted a good man and she wanted what she saw as a better man. She said... its just as easy to fall in love with a rich man as it is a poor man. Go for the rich. Find someone who can take care of you.

I think that mentality continues for some who are not willing to get out there and create a life of their own and they seek someone else to do the work for them.

Find someone with good work ethic's... who have manners or consideration for others. It might not be easy... but in the end if you hold off for the good stuff, you will eventually find it. There are many other's just as disgusted with what's out there as you are. Another thing I looked for was how someone was parented because it does say a lot about them. Anyone can pretend to have manners and such, for a time... so watch, be aware and don't be too hungry or be patient. The good people are out there, you just have to dig through a lot of crud to find them sometimes.

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RE: Are men becoming less submissive? - 11/8/2009 6:50:08 PM   
MarcEsadrian


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Joined: 8/24/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: steve5353

In five seconds I can meet a woman who is a real domme and know it because a real domme looks straight inside your eyes and heart. Where a "Wanna be" looks at your clothing and sizes you up for money. In fact I dress down or casual to meet a domme for the first time. A real domme will find out the real me and then maybe an hour later or at least before she dismisses me she will reprimand my for not dressing better but she already knows why I did not and she does not make a big deal out of it.


Do you always assume the script will go this way, and that said dominant lady will have these omnipotent psychic powers as a matter of fact, or do you simply dismiss those who don't follow the script of the legit in your eyes? I ask as I know a few dominant women who would question your decision to dress down when seeking audience with them, and it has naught to do with money.



< Message edited by MarcEsadrian -- 11/8/2009 6:52:08 PM >

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RE: Are men becoming less submissive? - 11/8/2009 11:00:46 PM   
Eivarden


Posts: 101
Joined: 4/15/2009
Status: offline 		NO.
If anything, the opposite is happening in my eye.

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RE: Are men becoming less submissive? - 11/9/2009 7:46:57 AM   
hopelesslyInvo


Posts: 522
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: the future
Status: offline 		modern life is what is attributed to men becoming more submissive over the last century; considering that movies, video games, and the internet have basically been a constant in any currently generation that is under question, i would ask what prompted you to even think it.

much like the theory of evolution, this is one of those things that doesn't change in the course of a couple weeks.  anyone who is probably qualified to judge the rise and decrease of human traits and characteristics of the human rates (unlikely to be anyone on this site) probably doesn't look at things in terms of weeks, months, or years, but generations.  the current generation of hairless unmasculine men that have set huge trends within itself like emo's and goth, and with gay couples either being on the rise or simply coming out being on the rise, as well as it's acceptance...  i really don't think anything "we" have change will even really be "noticeable" by us, as we take the events in life to usually be how life is.  our entire lifespan might be too short to see such characteristics in human life change, it's not like the sudden change in women's rights or anything else people notice change.

besides, i doubt the people that keep track of humanity really associate the amount of submissive traits present in men with the amount of men who like to play "bottom" and call themselves submissive.

i think i would say if this was a real inquiry, the worst thing you could do is to assume "kink" and "human nature" intertwine exclusively.  it's taking nothing into account of how many dominant women and submissive men exist far outside the world of bdsm.  the titles in bdsm refer to roles filled more than what type of person they really are.  someone who wants to be in control calls their self a dom/domme/dominant/master here, but in reality they may be more submissive and deprived of the control they want to have than most of the "submissives" in bdsm who only call themselves that because they want the kink.

all in all, i think you're probably mixing too many things together.  human nature and human interaction, traits and kink, etc. etc. 

look at what you've covered in your original post~

you're saying that part of being submissive means...

you are not selfish
you are not demanding
you are respectful
you are not a fetishist
you are heavily influenced by porn
you are heavily influenced by violence
you are heavily influenced by and involved with video games
you are heavily influenced by and involved with motion pictures

none of those things really have anything to do with being submissive or dominant.  being dominant doesn't mean you're demanding anymore than being submissive means you aren't.  neither have to be or should even be expected to be respectful, neither should be expected to be selfish or selfless, and neither should have any correlation into how kinky their sex lives are, if they even have one.  it would be no different than expecting someone to be nice just because of some other characteristic.  it would be like assuming things were safe or unsafe to drink because of color rather than the warning label.

dominance and submission as traits rather than accepted roles allude to little more than how likely they are to resist the will of others and how likey they are to impose their own will onto others.

the trait in question of men becoming more submissive or women more dominant has nothing to do with kink, and everything to do with the textbook definition.  the type of traits you see in animals, when a fox brings a piece of meat back to its den and 5 cubs need fed, but it's only enough to feed 4, you'll see which ones are more dominant and more submissive, and i assure you it has nothing to do with kindness, respect, the desire to share, seeing sex or violence, or being demanding.  instead it's very simple, you are 1, they are 4, 1 or 2 will go hungry, which will you be, and  how far are you able to go and how much can you tolerate in order to not starve.  in non sentient beings, i assure you the dominant ones get fed, the submissive ones go hungry.  in humans our survival has little to do with it, but you see the same concept applied when returning merchandise, or getting the wrong order at a restaurant, or interacting with a boss at work.

to be honest though, i don't think it's fair to even compare dominance and submission as opposites, the opposite of submission is defiance, the opposite of imposing your will on others is to leave them be.  if i had to make my own assumption of things, i would say submission in men probably is still rising or at least has no signs of decline, and if i had to guess why, i would say because modern life doesn't depend on us being dominant to survive anymore, not "here", but look at the difference in the men in the US or UK compared to men in the middle east.  pretty stark difference, but so is what our life involves and requires in order to live it.





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RE: Are men becoming less submissive? - 11/9/2009 8:02:55 AM   
lobodomslavery


Posts: 2477
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline 		At least everything is out in the open nowadays and in many ways thats good. For me the good old days were not good at all. Ask the victims of child abuse were the good old days good, was the secrecy , the lack of accountability, the abuse, was that good. I think you will get a very different perspective
At least now the Church is not telling us hypocritically what to do and then abusing our kids, well someone's kids behind our back with no consequences for the offender. At least there is a little more justice now in that perpetrators have nowhere to hide
Kevin

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RE: Are men becoming less submissive? - 11/9/2009 8:21:35 AM   
youngsubgeoff


Posts: 900
Joined: 9/25/2007
From: The Asylum
Status: offline 		I must say I disagree. I listen to some of the most violent, brutal, and pissed off music out there, and yet Im submissive. Im a horror movie buff, yet here I am.

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RE: Are men becoming less submissive? - 11/9/2009 3:50:31 PM   
playboy22


Posts: 17
Joined: 6/28/2008
Status: offline 		We lived in a completely feminized society. There is no testosterone left in the USA. Aside from the recent popularity of UFC and cage fighting , male tendencies have been washed away. Really the only dominant sectors left is with the african american male . I feel this is a result of growing up in poorer areas where being macho and not taking shit from females is more accepted. Its why your into cuckolding and want an aggressive back cock in your ass.  White males have been brain washed to be like Carey Grant gone over board. They have been trained to kiss girls asses. The funny part about it is this is your sons , brothers , and other men in your life that are fucking wimps around women and display the behavior your abhor with any other males. You just seem to ignore it with them.



< Message edited by playboy22 -- 11/9/2009 3:51:15 PM >

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RE: Are men becoming less submissive? - 11/9/2009 4:07:34 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		ROFL...

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