RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year

RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year (11/8/2009 4:42:23 PM)
As much as i hate to think it, im glad they did offer the bail out. The economy is bad with it, the effects of a free fal stock market, major corporations, including international financial institutions, going under would have been devestating.

Raiikun -> RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year (11/8/2009 4:46:57 PM)
Without the bailouts, we'd have a different set of problems - Businesses that make poor business decisions would be failing instead of being propped up. I think we would very possibly be on the road to recovery by now instead of things still continually getting worse with no end in sight.

slvemike4u -> RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year (11/8/2009 4:48:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun Without the bailouts, we'd have a different set of problems - Businesses that make poor business decisions would be failing instead of being propped up. I think we would very possibly be on the road to recovery by now instead of things still continually getting worse with no end in sight. psst ....Merc,is that you?

tazzygirl -> RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year (11/8/2009 4:51:55 PM)
LOL mike! As far as a recovery, Raiikun? I would love to see just one article/historian/financial expert, political expert, ect. saying that. Just one.

SpinnerofTales -> RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year (11/8/2009 4:53:58 PM)
quote: Without the bailouts, we'd have a different set of problems - Businesses that make poor business decisions would be failing instead of being propped up. I think we would very possibly be on the road to recovery by now instead of things still continually getting worse with no end in sight. ORIGINAL: Raiikun Without the bailouts, there would have been a systemic meltdown that would have led to a close to complete collapse in the world economy. This is why every government from China on down has been pouring money into the hole to give people time to fill it before falling into it. Of course, it is easy to say "what would have been" is much better than what is. I'm surprised that you aren't saying that, had we not reacted to the crisis as we have, we would now have the stock market would be over 20,000, interest rates would have been up to 20% on savings account and the unemployment rate would be .5% tops. Oh how lovely things are in the land of make believe.

Raiikun -> RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year (11/8/2009 4:54:27 PM)
With the economists being consistantly wrong this year, I'm suprised you'd put any stock in what they'd have to say anyways.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year (11/8/2009 4:54:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 . You do realise the American economy was on the point of collapes right ? The major banks had no money to carry on the working week. Do you realise what would have happened if they all failed, or even if any of the major banks failed ? You do realize that that was bullshit served to you so you would accept the biggest power grab in us history, right?

DarkSteven -> RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year (11/8/2009 4:56:33 PM)
I'm surprised by the bailout being considered one of Obama's best decisions. First off, it was not an Obama decision. It was a Bush decision, or rather a Paulson decision, which Obama simply expanded. Second, the banks have NOT extended credit since. Congress. Paulson, and Obama/Geithner were in too much of a hurry to do something - anything! - that they never placed any conditions on the free money and were reduced to demanding them after the bailout cash was disbursed. A bunch of economists have opined that the credit market would have seized up without the bailout. I'm not so sure. And it has touched off a populist resentment that will not be good for the country.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year (11/8/2009 4:56:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl LOL mike! As far as a recovery, Raiikun? I would love to see just one article/historian/financial expert, political expert, ect. saying that. Just one. Try watching a few business shows. Many say that without the stimulus we would be coming into a new business cycle upward.

slvemike4u -> RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year (11/8/2009 4:56:37 PM)
"Oh how lovely things are in the land of make believe" Damm Spinner anyone of the many crossdressers here could have told you that

Raiikun -> RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year (11/8/2009 4:56:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales quote: Without the bailouts, we'd have a different set of problems - Businesses that make poor business decisions would be failing instead of being propped up. I think we would very possibly be on the road to recovery by now instead of things still continually getting worse with no end in sight. ORIGINAL: Raiikun Without the bailouts, there would have been a systemic meltdown that would have led to a close to complete collapse in the world economy. This is why every government from China on down has been pouring money into the hole to give people time to fill it before falling into it. Of course, it is easy to say "what would have been" is much better than what is. I'm surprised that you aren't saying that, had we not reacted to the crisis as we have, we would now have the stock market would be over 20,000, interest rates would have been up to 20% on savings account and the unemployment rate would be .5% tops. Oh how lovely things are in the land of make believe. Kinda like you're make-believe strawman? ;) (Making a ludicrous argument up that you would "expect" me to make is nearly as dishonest as making the strawman itself).

tazzygirl -> RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year (11/8/2009 4:59:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven I'm surprised by the bailout being considered one of Obama's best decisions. First off, it was not an Obama decision. It was a Bush decision, or rather a Paulson decision, which Obama simply expanded. Second, the banks have NOT extended credit since. Congress. Paulson, and Obama/Geithner were in too much of a hurry to do something - anything! - that they never placed any conditions on the free money and were reduced to demanding them after the bailout cash was disbursed. A bunch of economists have opined that the credit market would have seized up without the bailout. I'm not so sure. And it has touched off a populist resentment that will not be good for the country. I mentioned earlier that Obama wasnt the one who initiated the bailouts. I never mentioned the banks asked for more money. I agree conditions should have been set from the beginning. They all would have hated mine.

slvemike4u -> RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year (11/8/2009 5:00:14 PM)
Perhaps I'm confused Raiikun,it seemed to me Spinner stayed on point and responded directly to your post....please explain how that warrented the dreaded strawman label?

Raiikun -> RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year (11/8/2009 5:02:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Perhaps I'm confused Raiikun,it seemed to me Spinner stayed on point and responded directly to your post....please explain how that warrented the dreaded strawman label? Perhaps you missed this part of his post? "I'm surprised that you aren't saying that, had we not reacted to the crisis as we have, we would now have the stock market would be over 20,000, interest rates would have been up to 20% on savings account and the unemployment rate would be .5% tops." Inventing an argument that you "expect" your opponent to make to make him look ludicrious is nearly as dishonest as making the strawman itself.

slvemike4u -> RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year (11/8/2009 5:10:29 PM)
ahh...so it wasn't an actual strawman argument....no chance he was simple being facetious?That is the way I took it.

DomKen -> RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year (11/8/2009 5:13:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun Without the bailouts, we'd have a different set of problems - Businesses that make poor business decisions would be failing instead of being propped up. I think we would very possibly be on the road to recovery by now instead of things still continually getting worse with no end in sight. We tried doing nothing once before. 1929 to 1933. This country almost tore itself apart. Hoover was wrong then and you're wrong now.

Raiikun -> RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year (11/8/2009 5:18:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun Without the bailouts, we'd have a different set of problems - Businesses that make poor business decisions would be failing instead of being propped up. I think we would very possibly be on the road to recovery by now instead of things still continually getting worse with no end in sight. We tried doing nothing once before. 1929 to 1933. This country almost tore itself apart. Hoover was wrong then and you're wrong now. I'd hardly call signing a tariff act into law that fueled trade wars and exacerbated the Depression "doing nothing."

SpinnerofTales -> RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year (11/8/2009 5:22:14 PM)
quote: Kinda like you're make-believe strawman? ;) (Making a ludicrous argument up that you would "expect" me to make is nearly as dishonest as making the strawman itself). ORIGINAL: Raiikun Then what do you think would have happened if we had let the shit hit the fan and not put any money into a collapsing economy? What I have gotten from your posts I have gotten the idea that you think things would be better off if we had just let nature take its course. If this is true, tell me what you think things would be like today if we hadn't have taken those steps. Oh..and by the way..this "Strawman" refrain makes me nostalgic for the time when any post disagreeing with the right wing just got them shouting "Alinsky! Alainsky!"

willbeurdaddy -> RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year (11/8/2009 5:26:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales Then what do you think would have happened if we had let the shit hit the fan and not put any money into a collapsing economy? The same thing that happened in every other recession where idealogues didnt print money faster than Parker Brothers.

Raiikun -> RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year (11/8/2009 5:29:28 PM)
I didn't say you made a strawman, I said a make believe strawman. I was afraid the humor would fly over your heads, hence why I went back and explained. :p And I didn't say that things would be "better off today". I do believe things would have already hit bottom and be climbing up from there, instead of the continual decline that we're still on though for who knows how much longer. (Another 14 banks failed within the last 2 weeks; another 190,000 jobs lost last month with the largest losses being in construction, manufacturing, and retail trade; a really bad sign right before Christmas.)

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