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RE: A third party ? - 11/9/2009 7:11:22 PM   
kdsub


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The problem with the Green party and the like is they do not represent what the majority of Americans want... They are too narrow and fanatic in their views to gain true support.

It will take someone like Ron Paul or an established moderate of either party to break away and form a new party.

Butch


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RE: A third party ? - 11/9/2009 7:18:56 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Tell it to the courts, Butch.


When has it been before a court specifically concerning lobbying?

There are already laws against bribery...I think lobbying could be considered just that if any kind of benefit is obtained as a result of lobbying...Anyway I think it would be a good addition to a third party platform...If nothing else to gain support.

Get a large enough political following and watch how fast Democrats and Republicans jump on the anti-lobbying wagon.

Butch



So what's next? Prevent any funded group or individual from talking to members of Congress?

What if they knew each other previously? What if they ran into each other in a restaurant?

The Constitutional issue seems obvious to me, but if not, this is like campaign finance reform--tweak it all you want, but much is at stake and with the money to make it happen. The legislation may help determine how, but not whether.

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RE: A third party ? - 11/9/2009 7:34:44 PM   
kdsub


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There are already rules and regulations against lobbying at least on the City level. Where I worked for 40 years we were only allowed to set requirements and open for bid. We were not allowed to talk with any lobbyists let alone take gifts.

Why would this not work on the national level? If you prohibited all gifts, political donations, and a minimum 5-year prohibition on employment there would be no incentive to lobby.

Is it my first amendment right to offer a bribe to my congressman even if he does not accept it? I think not at least in St Louis it is jail time.

I think lobby reform would be a great foundation for a party platform and it is far from being cut and dry prohibited by the First amendment.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/9/2009 7:35:41 PM >


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RE: A third party ? - 11/9/2009 7:38:51 PM   
Musicmystery


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Kind of a jump from lobbying to bribery, though.

Hell, wouldn't campaign donations be bribery by such a broad take?

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RE: A third party ? - 11/9/2009 7:48:10 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Kind of a jump from lobbying to bribery, though.

Hell, wouldn't campaign donations be bribery by such a broad take?



Myself I can't see the difference... can you?

As for donations there are already limits on amounts are there not?

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/9/2009 7:49:15 PM >


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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: A third party ? - 11/9/2009 7:51:52 PM   
Musicmystery


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OK, Butch.

Have fun storming the castle.




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 11/9/2009 7:52:13 PM >

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RE: A third party ? - 11/9/2009 8:59:37 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

OK...I'll bite...where does it say that you cannot prohibit lobbying in the constitution.

You're looking at the wrongs part of the 1st amendment. The right to petition the government for redress of grievances and the right to assemble as well as freedom of speech are what would make a ban on lobbying unconstitutional.

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RE: A third party ? - 11/9/2009 9:28:04 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Freedom of speech does not need to be infringed to prohibit direct lobbying of congress. Lobbyist can buy time on private and public television or internet and talk till they are blue in the face. On a personal level they could contact their representative and express their views.

There is no infringement of speech to prohibit organized lobbying by paid representatives trying to influence legislation.

Butch



But thats what lobbyists do...contact their representative and express their views. So if they can do that, you arent prohibiting direct lobbying.

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RE: A third party ? - 11/9/2009 9:36:02 PM   
TheHeretic


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I'm guessing that you missed it, Brian, but Lieberman isn't a Democrat.  They tried to "leperize" him in '06 and he won his re-election as an independent. 




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RE: A third party ? - 11/9/2009 10:22:45 PM   
gift4mistress


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

We already have a third party and it's called the Green party and the leader is Ralph Nader and I strongly suggest if the Democrats do not keep their promises, people in the next election should vote for the Green party. I would start with Senators, especially Democratic senators, who will vote against health care reform. People like Joe Lieberman, Mary Landrieu, and Ben Nelson.

I can't believe what a sell out Joe Lieberman has become, his behavior is totally outrageous. He needs to be completely purged from any involvement with the Democratic Party. He needs to be treated like a leper. And it will take leadership from Obama and Harry Reid.


Just what we need! A party that claims democratic but is in fact socialistic.
Also, the party leaders have been known to be anti-semitic.
Lastly, their political ideologies are way to narrow and left for most Americans.


< Message edited by gift4mistress -- 11/9/2009 10:26:38 PM >

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RE: A third party ? - 11/9/2009 11:41:24 PM   
Termyn8or


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Using FR

Interesting, and yes I will have to kill myself now because Ken is right. Prohibiting lobbying would be unconstitutional. However watching "our" representatives very closely would not. The government is empowered to protect this country from enemies, both foreign and domestic. According to the Bush clan, they can watch everyone at will. How about us watching them ? Every fucking check deposited in their accounts, every dime they get from whatever source. Just make it public.

It would probably be hard to find again but I did read a fairly (de jure) listing of who got money from whom. Now if we correlate that with their voting record, I bet people would be up in arms. And it goes way back. The younger among us, Carter was otherwise a pretty half decent President. He didn't do much good but he did very little harm. Except for one thing. He wouldn't send the Shah back to Iran. He gave that butcher asylum and then the people stormed the embassy. Their crackpot leader, the Iatolla then took power, and Carter is a big part of making that possible. This because we don't seem to think about the consequences of our actions. Just like France along with others caused the conditions in Germany to allow Hitler to rise to power. When will they ever learn ?

Probably never, that's why we need a clean sweep. Stupid motherfuckers when it comes to foreign policy, and have been longer than I have been ! I totally support the pubs doctrine of dealing from a position of strength, but the assholes don't know how to use it in moderation. The best thing is the sleeper. I got people, high school dropouts, who know enough to sit in the corner once in a while. But if the guns come out you would be surprised how fast they move. How does a lion catch it's prey ? By laying in wait, until the time is right. These dimb fucks are like Godzilla, stamping out buildings, houses children, nurses everyione and their infrastructure. And then half the time they blame it on someone else. That's because they are stupid.

Don't get me wrong, they are not totally stupid, the word for them starts with an M and I can't think of it right now. Each one has guile and intelligence, and are proficient at their job, if they ever get a real one. But as a body they gain something like a gang mentality and their hubris is beyond belief. "We can now shape the future in our own image". Oh yeah ? Many, many more of us than most think have our own image, and that is of a stout oak tree and a bunch of rope. They have had at us for too long. And they will never stop, they will take more and more and more and more until there is nothing left, and then they might come back to make sure they left nothing of value behind. This is the non-defined illness known as greed. It is an addiction like any other. There will never be enough.

Mark my words, they will soon be totally be invincable. It is written and foretold, with details and everything is falling into place. If our generation does not act, the ability to even try to act will be taken away. Hear me, I am not talking bullshit. This is real shit here. Even from my lowly position in life (ever been in a room with a million dollars ?) I can see this. This is because I know. I know how to manipulate people and to do what they did. I was hoping not to resort to such tactics, that is to reduce myself to the stature of our enemies. But reality is upon me as well.

In he next few years, barring some sort of cataclismic improvement in the human condition, I will bring these tactics out. It is coming time. It is like fighting fire with fire. They might've taught you to not get mad, get even. Well I was taught to take it all. And if something doesn't happen soon I will have to take it to that level. I am not talking about getting mean here, I am talking about taking over. That means out in the street. You could call it bringing out the big guns but there will not be guns involved. I want people who really agree to be on my side. How else could I even consider trusting them ?

But to persuade them, that is the key. To get them away from the game controller, the mouse, the Wii remote. To turn off the radio and TV. to really get their attention. Lately I have found a couple of new avenues on which to do so, I will be going there, finding friends and discarding enemies.

I am 49 and I don't have all that much time, but I have some. Sometimes I think about really using that time instead of abusing it. Consider that a warning, really. You ain't seen shit.

But what am I fighting for ? That was the original question. Health care is not in the Constitution, I can't support it. All of these other issues are moot. What do WE do ? Get all these people out of the joont who don't belong there, and put those who do in their place. Change, become a country of benevolence and true justice. Come here legally you got rights, sneak in we got bullets. Educate your own damn kids, don't blow my tax dollars doing it. Want them to go to school ? Pay up. Want medicine ? Pay up. Stop the income tax. Cap property taxes. My buddt says his last custiomer was paying eleven grand a year in property tax. Are you fucking kidding me ? No wonder people rent.

Got to rein in all this shit. It does no godd for the feds just to step out because then the states, counties and cities will do it. I think they would like that because it would be harder to oversee. It is just trading one problem for another. This must be stopped.

So let's put it this way, the feds can tax things that cross state lines, but we make it so the states can't. The feds can't tax anything that stays within state borders but the state can.

How's that for starters ? It's not the cureall, but it takes some of the fingers out of the pie, OUR PIE. WE create the wealth which they drain and live off of. WE can put them down no matter what. But the thing is, it gets harder as time goes by. Not just because of our complacency, but because the avidly work to advance their cause, which is to stay rich and maintain power. What else would they do ? What would you do if you were one of them ?

Think this way. We CAN take the power back, but it will not be easy. We hve no access to the media, and so far no sponsorship by anyone with resources that can even begin to make a dent. Therefore we need a different way. As such I will look for other avenues, such as the internet for one, to further the goal. I am not going to use or quote Moore, Jones or Rense. I don't need to to because whtever makes those people more special than me is simply a perception, and in reality an illusion. Many of the scientific inventions were made by dropouts. Criminals (supposedly) have done extreme acts of heroism. And at times our most trusted leader have betrayed us and really should've went to the gallows. The old yardstick is broken into tiny pieces.

I would support a system in which, as a trusted public official that every minute of my life is on camera, the only time I would have alone is either alone or with my olady if any. Everything else I do is publuic knowledge, even smoking that umm, you know. All of it. Every dime that comes into my hands is recorded, and from whence it came. Compare my decisions to the few times I take money and be my judge. You would be my people, and as their leader I am a servant. A very well paid sevant of course, but that doesn't change the status. As such I don't judge you, you judge me. You see if I am screing you, if I have been bought. You see. I will submit to that if I ever take an oath of public office. Will you ?

Would anyone in power today ? I think Ron Paul might because he is so squeaky clean. Probelm with him is he won't appeal to the abortion crowd. So I figure we would put him in finance somewhere. In fact, he mouthed off about auditing the fed ? I'd make him chairman of the fed. You know how to fix it, go do that, I have a few other things to which I need to tend.

One of which would be to straighten things out with the Arabs, hopefully without pissing the Jews off too much. I am tired of all this shit. If we can't make peace, this time we will show you how to make war. Under my direction when we get done with winning a war there will not be a living mammal within their borders. Sounds barbaric, but I have givebn it alot of thought, and overall the scope and level of human suffering would be much less. Your country is now a glass parking lot. Sorry, really. I didn't cause this situation and it hurts me greatly to have to do this, but this is what I signed on for. Now we have to drill for oil through glass. Hey, we put a Man on the moon right ?

If you look out for number one you might just become number one. If you keep fucking around your number comes up and it is over. I don't think I want to go to the grave knowing that I could've done something. We need to set aside our bleeding hearts, get the job done as quickly andf as effectively as possible. Then we have helped to build a better life for ourselves and our progeny.

And don't even think that it is someone else's job, it is required of all of us. And unless we do it or at least try, all we can do is bitch about things. A bunch of whiney hineys. Worse than a Woman with PMS, because we don't have PMS right now. Sometimes I hear of stupid shit people did and my response might be "How much did you drink before your brainiac ass figured out to do that ?". If they were drunk, OK, not that it is an excuse. But if they do dumb shit sober, that is worse.

CHANGE THIS COUNTRY.

How ?

T

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RE: A third party ? - 11/10/2009 4:58:09 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Lastly, their political ideologies are way to narrow and left for most Americans.


Except, of course, for voters, apparently.

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RE: A third party ? - 11/10/2009 5:24:34 AM   
Louve00


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I'm guessing that you missed it, Brian, but Lieberman isn't a Democrat.  They tried to "leperize" him in '06 and he won his re-election as an independent. 



Right, Lieberman is an independant.  I guess because of seating in the senate (the independants are counted with the dems when it comes to majority seats) is where is he always considered a democrat. 

So, to my way of seeing it, the two other parties that hear squeaks and squawks come election time are the independants and libertarian.  I know there are tons of others, but I don't even know what their causes are.  How would one go about raising the bar for libertarians or independants?  Or are you all talking about giving birth to yet another party?

The way I think to start is money.  They'd need to organize, promote themselves, study and be prepared for all the worldly affairs out there and that takes money.  I am not too familiar with how starrting a new party would or should go.  I can only imagine it'll take a LOT of money...a LOT of talk to spread it...and a LOT of sense.  (But I'm not a politician, a lawyer, or anything of that so don't chastize me if this sounds naive)

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RE: A third party ? - 11/10/2009 9:54:39 AM   
pahunkboy


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My brother bought a place with high taxes.  I hope he flips it fast.   He noted the schools were "trash", 10k taxes every year and the schools still had the trash factor.

But knowing his county- one can still have a doable house for 4k-4500.  (cook county IL)

For my area anything over 1200 is too much.   If the place is a palace no more then 2k.   I seen how moms taxes crept up- and that was a shock- until I seen just how things go in the urban counties.

I told my brother 3 of us could live there and still not afford 10k in taxes.    Is the place really 10k nice?   Not to me... that is slavery.

The freedon to not owe this required payment is worth more to me.  I realize that something must be paid into the till.   But keep it under 1k based on my numbers..... sorry- but not really.

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RE: A third party ? - 11/10/2009 10:23:04 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

True income tax reform

Healthcare plan that regulates insurance companies and removes their monopoly powers.

Prohibit all lobbying of congress

Prohibit political donations from industry and only allow $1000 individual max donations.

Mandatory reduction of national debt

Mandatory regulations and timetable for energy independence

Tax deductions for industry residing in the United States

Mandatory government purchasing of American made products if available.

Line item veto

Just a few




KDSUB for President!

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RE: A third party ? - 11/10/2009 10:46:03 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gift4mistress



Just what we need! A party that claims democratic but is in fact socialistic.
Also, the party leaders have been known to be anti-semitic.
Lastly, their political ideologies are way to narrow and left for most Americans.




I thought you supported the Democrats? I must have misread something.
Good to see you recognize them for what they are.

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RE: A third party ? - 11/10/2009 12:33:55 PM   
Termyn8or


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Couldn't use FR for some reason, but would.

Upon reading the replies, some reminded me of another stumbling block to something like this. People have a herd mentality. Look at advertising, which panders to that aspect, or for a more direct example the old signs in front of McD's. "Over __ million served". If that's not enough, there is quite a contingent who simply want to be on the side that's winning.

On the other hand at least I know what it is. For some reason signs in people's front yards are deemed useful by the current regime. Bumper stickers too. They think that putting it out there will make people vote for them. They can't be all wrong. A display of support for a candidate seems to say "They convinced me, so you should vote for them". If it didn't have some effect they would not waste the money.

Talk Green party all you want, but I don't see them very near the big chair. Perhaps I should have said fourth party, fifth ?

At any rate I thought I put the lobbying issue to rest. It is true that it cannot be outlawed, but that doesn't mean we can't keep a very close eye on it. In fact if I were elected I would not only consent to near constant surveillance (sp) I would welcome it. Let people see what I do. You would not likely see me lose the next election.

Of course it couldn't be constant really. There are issues of national defense that should not be public and quite frankly you have to give a person some time to get laid, get high or whatever. But just about everything done in the capacity of a representative would be right there for public scrutiny.

How many already work at places with cameras all over the place, even the bathrooms ? You might not believe this, but I saw a picture of some Women working wearing chastity belts ! It was required because their job is sorting diamonds. These are temporay wear CBs and are required so they can't steal the diamonds by hiding them in their vaginas. I guess for some it beats a cavity search every day.

Now if they can require that, why can't we require the same level of security when dealing with issues that can affect future history on a grand scale ?

Really, I don't see why anyone votes at all. Politician has almost become synoymous with distrust. They should know by not they can't trust any of them, yet they vote for them anyway. If that is the result of the lack of options it could work in our favor. Agreeing to be under near constant public scrutiny would be something new, something different, as well as something that the PTB would have a very hard time fighting against, unless they adopted the practice themselves. At that point our mere presence at the table might cause some drastic changes in the game.

Either way I think it would have a positive impact.

T

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RE: A third party ? - 11/10/2009 1:55:28 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


You might not believe this, but I saw a picture of some Women working wearing chastity belts !


Youre right, I dont believe it.

(Although if it were a reasonable condition of employment, they can work somewhere else if they dont like it.)

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 11/10/2009 1:56:11 PM >

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RE: A third party ? - 11/10/2009 3:21:03 PM   
kdsub


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lol...and you popeye will be in charge of foreign aid

Butch


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 39
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