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Brain -> Young Conservatives Ashamed of GOP | | AlterNet (11/10/2009 6:13:08 PM)

Maybe there is some hope for the future of conservatism after all if they go back to Goldwater and his values. I actually used to be a very staunch conservative and I like Barry Goldwater, he was somebody that was reasonable and you could get along with him. Robert Kennedy Junior talks about Barry Goldwater that he campaigned for abortion rights and said you don't have to be straight to shoot straight regarding gays in the military. They have hijacked the Republican Party away from the traditional moderates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WonM34-OpuY

Young Conservatives Ashamed of GOP | | AlterNet

Spend some time talking to college Republicans and you might find that the new GOP strategy really hasn't been that "off the hook." At a Columbia University College Republicans (CUCR) meeting, 21-year-old Learned Foote says proudly, "I hate Republicans." He is a conservative but doesn't align himself with the current GOP. Before moving to New York to attend Columbia, Foote lived in an evangelical household in the Midwest. Despite growing up in a Republican environment, he came of age during the abuses of the Bush era, and this undoubtedly informed his politics. He believes adamantly in the classic Goldwater conservative ideals of small government and limited spending, but feels like he hasn't seen them executed in his lifetime. "[The Republican Party's] allegiance to these ideas has been shaky in the past, never ideal, and horrendous in the past few years. I cannot wrap my mind around the bailouts exercised under George W. Bush...and I'm concerned by certain portions of the Patriot Act," says Foote. He also seems to have little faith that if the Republicans were in office right now there would be real change either. "At the moment, most Republican leadership recycles talking points in response to the Democratic agenda."

http://www.alternet.org/story/143815/young_conservatives_ashamed_of_gop



Kirata -> RE: Young Conservatives Ashamed of GOP | | AlterNet (11/10/2009 6:41:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Robert Kennedy Junior talks....

Thanks for that... it's a great clip.

[sm=applause.gif]

K.



SpinnerofTales -> RE: Young Conservatives Ashamed of GOP | | AlterNet (11/10/2009 6:48:24 PM)

~FR~

Who knows. If these young conservatives take some power in the GOP, there might actually be a choice of who to vote for. It would be nice.



Brain -> RE: Young Conservatives Ashamed of GOP | | AlterNet (11/10/2009 7:06:46 PM)

This is part 2 of what Robert Kennedy Junior said in case you missed it, people actually applauded at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz6kG11Ek1w&NR=1



Brain -> RE: Young Conservatives Ashamed of GOP | | AlterNet (11/10/2009 11:28:58 PM)

Older Repubs don’t get it, unfortunate.

No longer conservative about his religion

It says much about the transformation of the Republican Party that even Newt Gingrich is now carrying the cross.

Gingrich is calculating that everything will get easier for him politically as a religious conservative.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/09/AR2009110903302.html



Vendaval -> RE: Young Conservatives Ashamed of GOP | | AlterNet (11/11/2009 2:53:58 AM)

Fast Reply -

I would really like to see the Republican Party go back to conservative fiscal positions and loose the religious extremists that have been the very vocal and visible talking heads.



TheHeretic -> RE: Young Conservatives Ashamed of GOP | | AlterNet (11/11/2009 8:57:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Fast Reply -

I would really like to see the Republican Party go back to conservative fiscal positions and loose the religious extremists that have been the very vocal and visible talking heads.




And I would like to see the Democrats lose the naive, nanny-state, politically correct totalitarians, who think socialism will work just fine if only the right people are in charge. 



mnottertail -> RE: Young Conservatives Ashamed of GOP | | AlterNet (11/11/2009 9:01:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Fast Reply -

I would really like to see the Republican Party go back to conservative fiscal positions and loose the religious extremists that have been the very vocal and visible talking heads.




And I would like to see the Democrats lose the naive, nanny-state, politically correct totalitarians, who think socialism will work just fine if only the right people are in charge. 



I am for this, in toto



InvisibleBlack -> RE: Young Conservatives Ashamed of GOP | | AlterNet (11/11/2009 11:17:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval
Fast Reply -

I would really like to see the Republican Party go back to conservative fiscal positions and loose the religious extremists that have been the very vocal and visible talking heads.


And I would like to see the Democrats lose the naive, nanny-state, politically correct totalitarians, who think socialism will work just fine if only the right people are in charge. 


I am for this, in toto


Agreed.

I think the real divide in politics today is between the "big government" view of state-sponsored solutions or involvement in all aspects of life vs. the "small government" view of minimal government interference - almost any issue can be viewed in this way, from health care to abortion rights to Wall Street bailouts to whatever. The problem is that, judging by the performance of the current and previous administrations, no party currently represents the "small government" side of the debate.



popeye1250 -> RE: Young Conservatives Ashamed of GOP | | AlterNet (11/11/2009 11:38:58 AM)

And it's the same in the Dem party with all the anal "lefties" trying to influence that party with all their "political correctness."
Someone should put them into a big stadium with all the righties and holy rollers and let them destroy each other!
You know, the "lefties" and "righties" are just like each other, shrill, unyielding, ignorant, and repulsive.



rulemylife -> RE: Young Conservatives Ashamed of GOP | | AlterNet (11/11/2009 12:07:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

Agreed.

I think the real divide in politics today is between the "big government" view of state-sponsored solutions or involvement in all aspects of life vs. the "small government" view of minimal government interference - almost any issue can be viewed in this way, from health care to abortion rights to Wall Street bailouts to whatever. The problem is that, judging by the performance of the current and previous administrations, no party currently represents the "small government" side of the debate.


Minimal government interference.

Hmmm!

So if the government had just left Enron, Adelphia, Tyco, Worldcom, among others, alone everything would have been just fine?



Mercnbeth -> RE: Young Conservatives Ashamed of GOP | | AlterNet (11/11/2009 12:13:18 PM)

quote:

So if the government had just left Enron, Adelphia, Tyco, Worldcom, among others, alone everything would have been just fine?


How big do you require the Government to be in order for there to be a 'thought police' to stop a criminal conspiracy from happening before it's occurred? Fraud has to occur before it's prosecuted. Thinking about fraud or the opportunity to perpetrate fraud would require some ability to predict that behavior before it occurs.

Correct me - but weren't every one of those entities and perpetrators prosecuted? Is is your position that government should have regulations and rules in place preventing these corporations from forming in the first place?

Wait - you don't have to answer that - I already know you support the Obama Administration's efforts to do just that.



mnottertail -> RE: Young Conservatives Ashamed of GOP | | AlterNet (11/11/2009 12:55:28 PM)

Correct me - but weren't every one of those entities and perpetrators prosecuted? Is is your position that government should have regulations and rules in place preventing these corporations from forming in the first place?

answer is no, and not really...... depending...... adelphia paid a fine after misappropriating billions of around 530Mill, Enron, of course didn't have enough money to pay back anywhere near what it grifted, some of the folks are doing 8 25.......


There don't have to be 'thought police' but the government has to be big enough to heavily watchdog these sorts of fucks (and actually do it) or remove big business corporation rules off the tax book and have them compete just like everyone else, same footing.

Rpm



rulemylife -> RE: Young Conservatives Ashamed of GOP | | AlterNet (11/11/2009 12:57:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

So if the government had just left Enron, Adelphia, Tyco, Worldcom, among others, alone everything would have been just fine?



Correct me - but weren't every one of those entities and perpetrators prosecuted? Is is your position that government should have regulations and rules in place preventing these corporations from forming in the first place?

Wait - you don't have to answer that - I already know you support the Obama Administration's efforts to do just that.


Then why did you ask?

And didn't the Bush administration increase regulation after these incidents occurred?

But let's not exaggerate things.  It has nothing to do with letting these corporations form but preventing the abuses that cost employees and shareholders billions of dollars.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Young Conservatives Ashamed of GOP | | AlterNet (11/11/2009 1:10:00 PM)

quote:

the government has to be big enough to heavily watchdog these sorts of fucks (and actually do it) or remove big business corporation rules off the tax book and have them compete just like everyone else, same footing.


Exactly what type of "heavily watchdog" would have prevented any of those examples from occurring?

Specifically removing which "big business corporation rules off the tax book"? What puts a corporation on a different footing? Each and every perk received by individuals comes from corporate profits. You can't write off personal expense as a corporate owner unless you are generating money, which is taxed, from some source; taxed again at the sales tax level. US Corporations are taxed at a 39.5% rate, second only to Japan.

There no such entity to attack or watchdog. Individuals perpetrate fraud, not corporations. Fraud, theft, and conspiracy to commit fraud are committed by people, employed by or owning corporations. Those things are already outside legal activity. Maybe you want a corporate version of a 'hate crime' where individuals perpetrating a fraud under cover a corporate entity are more criminal than other crimes. Would that make you feel better?

However, since the US is currently such a robust and fertile ground for new corporate ventures, new businesses, and jobs what other hurdles to setting up a new corporate entity would you like to see implemented?

Other than complain "actually do it" points to what?



mnottertail -> RE: Young Conservatives Ashamed of GOP | | AlterNet (11/11/2009 1:15:29 PM)

oh, the justice department, the sec, interstate commerce.......

and dont be droll with the taxation shit, merc.......show me where any corporation pays that rate, go show me a balance sheet on that, they expense it down, shift money overseas, bonus it, and get us to bail them out.

fuck that.

btw, 15-39% was more the numbers I was thinking of. At the 39% end we are with japan, but no big corporation pays that. But those are not the highest corporate tax rates, and we dont come close to second, the wiki graph is fucked up, by example denmark corps get a 63% tax rate
and there are more that are higher than ours.



InvisibleBlack -> RE: Young Conservatives Ashamed of GOP | | AlterNet (11/11/2009 1:21:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack
Agreed.

I think the real divide in politics today is between the "big government" view of state-sponsored solutions or involvement in all aspects of life vs. the "small government" view of minimal government interference - almost any issue can be viewed in this way, from health care to abortion rights to Wall Street bailouts to whatever. The problem is that, judging by the performance of the current and previous administrations, no party currently represents the "small government" side of the debate.


Minimal government interference.

Hmmm!

So if the government had just left Enron, Adelphia, Tyco, Worldcom, among others, alone everything would have been just fine?



"Minimal government interference" includes enforcing the laws preventing fraud, theft and criminal activity. As far as I can see, no amount of government involvement or activity can guarantee the elimination of criminal activity or ensure financial success. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were probably two of the most heavily regulated and overseen companies in the United States and they both went into receivership after massive accounting scandals.

I don't believe that the amount of fraud or corruption in any financial system correlates to the amount of government interference in that system.

Just to use your first example - the Enron debacle would never have happened save for the fact that part of the Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999 (or the Gramm-Leach-Billings Act) specifically exempted energy commodity trading from regulation and public disclosure. (When it turned out that Phil Gramm's wife was on the Board of Enron he, of course, resigned his office - but don't fear for the Gramms, he's doing quite well now as a Vice Chairman at UBS.) I don't view allowing a specific company or industry segment to operate in ways that no one else is allowed to as "the free market at work", I view it as the government creating a "special privilege" for a fortunate few that blew up in their faces.

It's easy to pick and choose specific examples to make a point, however. Is your problem with my thesis that you view at least one and possibly both of our major political parties as actively pushing for less government and that they've been too successful over the past ten years and have shrunk the government too much?



Mercnbeth -> RE: Young Conservatives Ashamed of GOP | | AlterNet (11/11/2009 1:35:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
oh, the justice department, the sec, interstate commerce.......
and dont be droll with the taxation shit, merc.......show me where any corporation pays that rate, go show me a balance sheet on that, they expense it down, shift money overseas, bonus it, and get us to bail them out.
fuck that.

What about the "justice department, the SEC, interstate commerce? What don't they do and regulate and charge fees that would have prevented any fraud?

There's something missing from your diatribe - answers.

Failures don't have income to tax. They don't generate tax revenue. It's who this government, under prior and current administrations, decided to use the tax money successes pay to prop up and pay off the executive bonuses.

However, I pay it. I pay as little as legally possible in seeing how its used. I spend a whole bunch on employee benefits and bonuses too. I also make sure that charities get at least as much as I pay in taxes because I'd much rather dictate voluntarily who gets entitlements. Most of my fellow business owners do the same.

Guess what - any income we manage to pull is also taxed at a rate over 40%. It's the primary reason I don't feel guilty to take advantage of any of the legal regulations for travel or purchases. I too have shifted money oversees. Not in the scale you imagine but why not? It's already been subjected to quite a few US tax occurrences and the reason it's there is to insulate it from more. You should do the same because every day you have dollars you are losing purchasing power - gold is at $1,120/ounce. A reflection on the weakness of the US dollar and the decisions being made about the economy, not the value of gold. Gold's value in Euros is decreasing.

I'd be the first to support a domestic agenda that makes it more pragmatically logical to keep investment, money, and business in the US - however I don't see any of the current members of the US Politburo moving in that direction. You position of more tax, more regulation, more encumbrances to business and production seems to be the path pursued by the ruling class. You should be thrilled! Personally I can't say it better than you - "Fuck that!"



Lorr47 -> RE: Young Conservatives Ashamed of GOP | | AlterNet (11/11/2009 2:11:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

Agreed.

I think the real divide in politics today is between the "big government" view of state-sponsored solutions or involvement in all aspects of life vs. the "small government" view of minimal government interference - almost any issue can be viewed in this way, from health care to abortion rights to Wall Street bailouts to whatever. The problem is that, judging by the performance of the current and previous administrations, no party currently represents the "small government" side of the debate.


Minimal government interference.

Hmmm!

So if the government had just left Enron, Adelphia, Tyco, Worldcom, among others, alone everything would have been just fine?



But isn't that exactly what government did and look where it got us.



MrRodgers -> RE: Young Conservatives Ashamed of GOP | | AlterNet (11/11/2009 2:12:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Fast Reply -

I would really like to see the Republican Party go back to conservative fiscal positions and loose the religious extremists that have been the very vocal and visible talking heads.




And I would like to see the Democrats lose the naive, nanny-state, politically correct totalitarians, who think socialism will work just fine if only the right people are in charge. 

I am for this, in toto

Just  where are the dems more nanny-state than the repubs ? Where are the dems for totalitarian and more socialists than repubs ?

Seems all of the seeds that govt, and corp. America have planted over the years are now needed to bloom into a continuing unsubstantiated, partisan discourse...just say it, even if you know it's not true.



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