RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute

RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion

Message

SDFemDom4cuck -> RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute (11/16/2009 8:51:52 PM)
Granted, I likely got a bit more snarky upon the realization that your view of things essentially dooms those who have suffered rape to being treated as (and enabled towards being) indefinite victims in all future personal encounters, so if you feel that my reaction was sharper than necessary in my response, then I'll apologize if you felt it was any kind pf personal attack rather than an attack on a bothersome worldview...but it's not as if we're extending the same presumptive courtesy to a man who is not here to defend himself against the commentary and demonization that this thread has wrought. You seem stuck on this victimization thing. I don't advocate victimization. Nor am I dooming anyone to perpetual victimization (self or otherwise) I am a Victim's Advocate (although the term alone makes me shudder.) My part is to help said survivors to grow and heal beyond the trauma that has occurred. It is, in part, my healing per se. While one doesn't ever get over it completely one does get through and past it to a certain extent.That does not mean that trauma does not have some effect on a person for the rest of their lives. How one deals with it (or doesn't in many cases sadly), how one accepts the services of counseling available in which to heal and grow past it is a matter of personal choice. Yes I did feel it was a personal attack, thus my befuddlement. I accept your apology. Thank you. Back to your regularly scheduled posting.

AnnaOfAramis -> RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute (11/16/2009 8:58:44 PM)
quote: She did something really stupid, and it's easy to get sucked into doing something for a man you believe loves you. Greetings llyren, What you said here is so true. I have been there and done that and (hopefully [8\|] learned from it). Thankfully, my situation didn't get quite as bad as the OPs but it was going that direction, and I would have been in her place if I hadn't got out. The thing is, that (as I think I remember her pointing out early in the thread) that it happens little by little. The small increments trick you along. Also, going by her age, I would gather this was probably her first D/s experience (I also think she mentioned that it was- sorry I'm too tired to go back and reread, forgive me if I misquote). The thing I remember is that (it was also my first D/s experience) you really don't know what "normal" is anymore when you first enter the lifestyle. So much of one's preconceived ideas are challenged. Things that no longer phase one and so seem quite ordinary, to a newbie are very odd. When my dominant at that time first asked me to shave my pussy, I found it bizarre! Poly was unheard of. His infatuation with school girls worried me... then you get online and find out it's all quite common and your sense of red flags just gets all confused. Now you don't know whether he's a guy with a like for school girl fantasies or a pedophile. When you start questioning all the things that you used to take for granted as red flags, it is really hard to watch out for yourself. You read about what a slave should be, and he wants you to do things. At first they are small, so you do them no problem. Then they get harder, but still small enough not to be so huge that you freak out, so you tell yourself it's pushing your limits and that's normal. It's really really hard to distinguish the line between abuse and D/s when you are new. I was not even young- I was in my 30s when I was officially introduced to the lifestyle and I would have hoped had some life experience to guide me. But I didn't. I believed what I read about the ideal Master slave relationship. That a dominant would nurture and protect you and that when he said he loved me, he meant it. I thought we had something deep but I was just a play thing. I fell for it hook line and sinker. He did a lot of damage to my life and emotionally to me. Then it was hard to leave... why because leaving would have involved admitting that he didn't love me, that it was all a lie and that I'd been used and been stupid. Somehow, we just don't want to believe that. And when we have moments when we are close to believing it, and we confront him in words or in our journals, they usually find all the right things to say to smooth it over and leave you feeling like you were having some hormonal thing or some sub-drop thing, and you dismiss it again... this goes on and on and on over and over until finally some catalyst comes to change things hopefully and you finally say enough. Stupid absolutely. Manipulated definitely. Abuse of power certainly. Predator... I think so in my case (based on some other facts I'm keeping to myself), and in the OP's case too. And I actually tend to be cautious about the use of that word because I have seen people bandy it around far too freely and damage reputations undeservedly. But when someone seeks out people precisely because they are naive and can be manipulated and then recklessly endangers them for their own gain, I think it is deserved. (I'm sure that definition needs tweaking, it's just a working definition at the moment, but you get the gist). To the OP: hugs and I'm glad you got out. Learn from it, and be careful of who you choose in future... and take heart that there are real D/s relationships out there. Your and my experiences are not what it is supposed to be. Well wishes, anna

Llyren -> RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute (11/16/2009 9:01:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren I'd love to see how he handles being gang raped, and whether he thinks being forced to blow random strangers and turn over the money to someone else tells him to do so makes him feel better. As soon as he consents to it. Perhaps after suffering a severe emotional trauma, if you feel so bloodthirsty. She didn't consent to being gang-raped, as far as I know. But sure, I'll let someone twist things in his mind till he agrees to the rest. But that just means we all have to go and discuss it on Jerry Springer. And yes, I do have a bloodthirsty streak in me. Would you expect less from a red-headed Scorpio? (insert disclaimer of your choice here) Seriously, at this point, she's only a victim if she chooses to be. But I believe he will continue to use and twist people as long as he can find new people to fall for his lies. It's a pity you can't change your title to Survivor's Advocate SDFemDom.

NihilusZero -> RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute (11/16/2009 9:04:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck While one doesn't ever get over it completely one does get through and past it to a certain extent. The human psyche is a convoluted thing and this worries me as a reverse placebo. What does it mean to say "one doesn't get over it completely"? I find that to be a psychologically constrictive comment that counter-empowers rape sufferers from being able to be just as strong, if not stronger, people than they were before the horrible event. Certainly, every severe emotional trauma will inevitably leave track marks that will stick, but scars don't have to necessarily impede someone from moving forward. At what point do we say a rape victim has 'graduated' back to normal capacity? For what other traumas do we grant similar exemptions? If someone sees their parents killed in front of them, do we then blame the guy because he abused his "father figure"? That she was raped recently prior to the relationship beginning is a concern, but that doesn't make him necessarily actively and malignantly intent on having stalked her for that reason more than just foolish to have requested it from someone who wasn't (if we take this logic at face value) able to consent despite the fact that she presumably presented herself as someone who could. We come back to the question of whether we should actually be quarantining these people because, if we seriously believe they have not re-acquired their honest ability to consent, then we should remove the ability from them (like we remove the ability of 15 year olds to enter an R-rated movie at a theater). But then, of course, we'd actually have to think about the demon we are releasing from Pandora's Box. quote: ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck That does not mean that trauma does not have some effect on a person for the rest of their lives. How one deals with it (or doesn't in many cases sadly), how one accepts the services of counseling available in which to heal and grow past it is a matter of personal choice. I'd like to think that for every atrocious act someone has suffered, there is the possibility of recovering from it. And when it comes to the human psyche, I see no reason why it cannot be done. So, it's still a very 'gray area' question of at what point we stop treating the people who have suffered these traumas as children and when we start treating them as competent adults again. If the OP had not suffered a recent rape or a rape at all, do we still treat her ex as a "manipulator"?

Llyren -> RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute (11/16/2009 9:08:19 PM)
I think he took advantage of the situation. I could be wrong. He could have been desperately trying to convince her to press charges, to stay in school, and to get therapy, but she was callously demanding to seek out random men for sex, and to give him the proceeds. Even if she hadn't been raped, he'd still be viewed as a manipulator and a predator in my book. However, you definitely read different books.

NihilusZero -> RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute (11/16/2009 9:09:54 PM)
Seriously, though. Are we confining the context of manipulation to s-types only? Because, I thought this brought up an pertinent point: quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero How does that works as a dominant, though? Maybe I could claim manipulation if I demand things of hir presuming that xhe wants me to show such an authority dynamic, because I think xhe loves me and wants me as hir precious controller and then, once we are no longer together and she actually says xhe never wanted to do any of those things, I can claim that I was manipulated into demanding things because I thought that's what xhe wanted! It all makes sense now! .... ....wait...

NihilusZero -> RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute (11/16/2009 9:13:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren I think he took advantage of the situation. I could be wrong. He could have been desperately trying to convince her to press charges, to stay in school, and to get therapy, but she was callously demanding to seek out random men for sex, and to give him the proceeds. Why should that make a difference? Because those are universally accepted "good" things? You're arguing for the exact same view that a vanilla person would have suggesting that you leave the idea of a over-controlling man and assert your equal womanhood by giving up these inferiority fantasies that degrade your entire gender. This is why consent is so paramount. Because it is the basis for what is "good" and "bad", not social mores and norms. quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren Even if she hadn't been raped, he'd still be viewed as a manipulator and a predator in my book. However, you definitely read different books. It just so happens that my "book" empowers the people that live in these 'deviant' lifestlyes, otherwise you may as well be called emotionally incapable of consent because something wrong with your brain makes you want to be submissive (gasp!) and not equal to your potential partner.

Llyren -> RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute (11/16/2009 9:24:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren I think he took advantage of the situation. I could be wrong. He could have been desperately trying to convince her to press charges, to stay in school, and to get therapy, but she was callously demanding to seek out random men for sex, and to give him the proceeds. Why should that make a difference? Because those are universally accepted "good" things? No, because those are healthy things. This is not my version of "I am woman, hear me roar." Get me drunk at a karaoke bar, you might get that. But this is the same as telling someone who was just hit by a car to lie down while I run my car over you. You need to do it, because I love you. This has nothing to do with vanilla or non-vanilla. It has to do with what is good for someone. If your pet dog gets chewed up in a fight, do you throw him back into a pack of fighting dogs, or do you get him healed and fixed? Well, I know which option I'd choose. quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren Even if she hadn't been raped, he'd still be viewed as a manipulator and a predator in my book. However, you definitely read different books. It just so happens that my "book" empowers the people that live in these 'deviant' lifestlyes, otherwise you may as well be called emotionally incapable of consent because something wrong with your brain makes you want to be submissive (gasp!) and not equal to your potential partner. Now you're trolling to provoke a reaction. Your book is taking the side of someone who takes advantage of someone else for his own benefit, and not mutual benefit. What did she get out of this, other than the illusion that he cared about her, if she did thus and such? That's not love. That's definitely not SSC. I applaud you checking my profile for ammunition, but I still believe you are very wrong. You're not defending our lifestyle. You're defending a predator who takes advantage of people.

NihilusZero -> RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute (11/16/2009 9:32:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren No, because those are healthy things. "Healthy" is also defined by consent. Ergo, smoking. Ergo threads on here that glorify bruising and have s-types requesting for ways in which to be more easily bruised. Ergo transsexualism. Ergo.... quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren This is not my version of "I am woman, hear me roar." Get me drunk at a karaoke bar, you might get that. But this is the same as telling someone who was just hit by a car to lie down while I run my car over you. You need to do it, because I love you. This has nothing to do with vanilla or non-vanilla. It has to do with what is good for someone. And your idea of what is good for someone should trump those of the people involved, yes? quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren If your pet dog gets chewed up in a fight, do you throw him back into a pack of fighting dogs, or do you get him healed and fixed? Well, I know which option I'd choose. Non-humans are traditionally presumed to be incapable of consent (ergo bestiality). Both parties were human in this case. quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren quote: It just so happens that my "book" empowers the people that live in these 'deviant' lifestlyes, otherwise you may as well be called emotionally incapable of consent because something wrong with your brain makes you want to be submissive (gasp!) and not equal to your potential partner. Now you're trolling to provoke a reaction. Your book is taking the side of someone who takes advantage of someone else for his own benefit, and not mutual benefit. What did she get out of this, other than the illusion that he cared about her, if she did thus and such? That's not love. That's definitely not SSC. SSC is nonsense without the last letter of the acronym. (RACK is a bit more appropriate, as it puts the onus on the particpant to understand what is and isn't "risky".) Again, though, this is an argument for someone who decided, after the fact, that what she got out of the relationship was not acceptable. Well, shit...that covers most of my relationships (including the ones where I was the predominant guilty party as to why the break-up happened). quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren I applaud you checking my profile for ammunition, but I still believe you are very wrong. You're not defending our lifestyle. You're defending a predator who takes advantage of people. I checked your profile (after you perved mine, to be fair) to make sure you IDed as a submissive, as that was the example I was providing. Way to demonize again, though! [:)]

Llyren -> RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute (11/16/2009 9:39:53 PM)
Actually, I perved your profile to see if I could get a better look at your picture. Nice sharks. In this instance, you refuse to accept any viewpoint other than your own as valid. Or perhaps you're merely viewing my viewpoint as invalid, and therefore attacking it for the amusement value. Whichever, you're not willing to have a rational discussion on the matter, so I see no reason to continue discussing it. I'm not conceding, I'm just refusing to pound my head on a brick wall.

SDFemDom4cuck -> RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute (11/16/2009 9:46:53 PM)
The human psyche is a convoluted thing and this worries me as a reverse placebo. What does it mean to say "one doesn't get over it completely"? Because you don't. It becomes a part of who you are and your behavior will continually be affected/effected by it. EG: I bought a gun (okay 3) I learned how to use said guns. Took self defense classes and defensive driving courses. I am hyper vigilant when out at night alone. I went through counseling and understand I was not at fault for what happened. I am quite well adjusted in regards to the adjudication of the case. That all being said...in certain circumstances and certain situations I can easily flash back to that night and what happened therein. So unless you're capable of finding some way to erase memory and black out the psyche or make the physical scars disappear someone who suffers from this type of trauma is never going to be completely over it. Ergo Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. That doesn't make me a victim, it makes me a survivor who still has nightmares almost 20 years after the acts occurred. I find that to be a psychologically constrictive comment that counter-empowers rape sufferers from being able to be just as strong, if not stronger, people than they were before the horrible event. Certainly, every severe emotional trauma will inevitably leave track marks that will stick, but scars don't have to necessarily impede someone from moving forward. At what point do we say a rape victim has 'graduated' back to normal capacity? Please don't take this as condescending but I don't know if you can ever understand this: there is no normal again. There is the person you were pre trauma and the person you become post trauma. It doesn't make me any less strong. Nor was I weak when this occurred. It simply means I did what I felt was necessary to get out of the situation alive. It also means I will never be the same person again. We still move forward. Our lives just veer onto a different path. That she was raped recently prior to the relationship beginning is a concern, but that doesn't make him necessarily actively and malignantly intent on having stalked her for that reason more than just foolish to have requested it from someone who wasn't (if we take this logic at face value) able to consent despite the fact that she presumably presented herself as someone who could. I had added in that part of her post in that the relationship really took off after his learning of her trauma. That to me was some big red flag. Thus my belief in his being a manipulator. I can't quite see his thought process in encouraging sex with multiple strangers to be the salve that heals a rape survivor. We come back to the question of whether we should actually be quarantining these people because, if we seriously believe they have not re-acquired their honest ability to consent, then we should remove the ability from them (like we remove the ability of 15 year olds to enter and R-rated movie at a theater). But then, of course, we'd actually have to think about the demon we are releasing from Pandora's Box. I'd like to think that for every atrocious act someone has suffered, there is the possibility of recovering from it. And when it comes to the human psyche, I see no reason why it cannot be done. I think that once something so traumatic is burned into the psyche there is no removing it from my personal experience. Not far different from people that survive plane crashes, or war or natural disasters. So, it's still a very 'gray area' question of at what point we stop treating the people who have suffered these traumas as children and when we start treating them as competent adults again. Recovery is a pretty little word that doesn't exist. We survive, we move past it. Recovery as I said before is completed only when one is capable of being able to erase the memory of the trauma. 20 post rape I still wake up screaming once in awhile. Not nearly as often as all those years ago but there are still occasional triggers of memory. It can be something as someone speaking with a particular lisp (as my attacker did) that can make me shudder. Many people assume this is the catalyst of my being a FemDom. I was a Domme far before this occurred but it sure as hell fuels my sadistic side on occasions. If the OP had not suffered a recent rape or a rape at all, do we still treat her ex as a "manipulator"? Another question is would he have attempted this same treatment with someone who hadn't? It's a pity you can't change your title to Survivor's Advocate SDFemDom. Actually, My card has the word victim in a circle with a line slashed through it and the title Survivor's Advocate below it. with the adage " That which we cannot change, we endure and survive" [;)] Edited to add...perhaps this would be an interesting topic for a thread in and of itself NihilusZero rather than hijacking this thread so completely.

NihilusZero -> RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute (11/16/2009 9:49:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren Actually, I perved your profile to see if I could get a better look at your picture. Nice sharks. sigh They're burnt incense cones... quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren In this instance, you refuse to accept any viewpoint other than your own as valid. WyldHrt offered up a very good point to the discussion that was not in the same direction as what I'm arguing for. Frankly, once we wiped away the feeling that my debate style was intended to be insulting or attacking on a personal level, so has SDFemDom4cuck. I'm simply interested in hearing views that bring up valid points that empower those of us choosing this lifestyle (or facets of it). It's true I'm a big sitckler for points that are not mired in a priori bias or subjective morality portrayed as universal required ethics, but I don't think that's a bad thing (admittedly, that too could just be a subjective analysis...but at least it's an analysis that supports what we are each doing in the privacy of our own consensual actions). quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren Or perhaps you're merely viewing my viewpoint as invalid, and therefore attacking it for the amusement value. If "attack" is at all applicable as a descriptor, then I do it in order to display where a viewpoint is flaccid as far as supporting itself. I'd like to think that doing so is to the benefit of us all, but maybe that's my ego getting in the way again. [;)] quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren Whichever, you're not willing to have a rational discussion on the matter, so I see no reason to continue discussing it. I'm not conceding, I'm just refusing to pound my head on a brick wall. Because you're losing the argument or because you have no honest, credible counterpoints to offer anymore?

Llyren -> RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute (11/16/2009 9:58:53 PM)
Argh. Well, I never said I was good at resisting temptation, and my self-control isn't so hot. I'm not losing the argument. We're not really having an argument. You just keep saying I'm wrong, betraying the cause, etc. What I hear is that you feel she is fully responsible, and that he did nothing wrong. He had been telling her to commit an illegal act. Whether prostitution should be illegal isn't the point. But he wasn't wrong? And he is fully within his rights in view of the lifestyle? Let's remove the sexual aspect from this. Is it equally okay, and is he equally free of blame if he tells her to go hold up convenience stores? Does that fall under the realm of it's okay, because she consented? If someone encourages someone to do something that isn't good for them, it means they're doing something wrong, lifestyle or not. I really wish I could phrase this in a way that would cause you to just look at the facts, and not react as though I'm attacking D/s in general, and you in particular. Unless of course you're the guy in the equation, in which case, I am.

NihilusZero -> RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute (11/16/2009 10:10:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck Because you don't. It becomes a part of who you are and your behavior will continually be affected/effected by it. EG: I bought a gun (okay 3) I learned how to use said guns. Took self defense classes and defensive driving courses. I am hyper vigilant when out at night alone. I went through counseling and understand I was not at fault for what happened. I am quite well adjusted in regards to the adjudication of the case. That all being said...in certain circumstances and certain situations I can easily flash back to that night and what happened therein. So unless you're capable of finding some way to erase memory and black out the psyche or make the physical scars disappear someone who suffers from this type of trauma is never going to be completely over it. Ergo Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. That doesn't make me a victim, it makes me a survivor who still has nightmares almost 20 years after the acts occurred. But, does everyone need to go through the same coping mechanisms you used? And if someone uses a mechanisms that empowers them on an intellectual level but still gives them freedom to act otherwise normally in situations with similar dynamics, would you not consider that they may have an idea that makes more personally better sense? Again, I'm not saying scars don't stay with someone...but it also doesn't mean that we are forever moved and puppeteered by our scars. Honestly, I have no place to even begin to compare anything in my life to the horror of being raped, but I can't imagine a healing process that simultaneously demands that the victim be forever manacled by what happened to them. And this still bring up the gray area question of when we allow sufferers of such atrocities to be permitted the right to consent (normally) again. quote: ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck Please don't take this as condescending but I don't know if you can ever understand this: there is no normal again. There is the person you were pre trauma and the person you become post trauma. It doesn't make me any less strong. Nor was I weak when this occurred. It simply means I did what I felt was necessary to get out of the situation alive. It also means I will never be the same person again. We still move forward. Our lives just veer onto a different path. I have no problems with the suggestion that I have not suffered rape (as I have not). I also do not presume to be emotionally privy to what it must be like emotionally. But, we are again dealing with a question of what the effects are of severe emotional trauma. And we are specifically only dealing with whether previous victims can ever be considered capable, on any normal level, of consensual relationship decisions. If it is in error, I apologize, but I take the context of your words to mean you have suffered through such an event. At what point, then, did you feel you were personally capable of consenting to decisions in a romantic aspect again? How would you suggest we treat those who have suffered similar tragedies? And, at what point are we constricting them (more than helping them) by suggesting that they can never 'really' be over the horrible events that happened to them? quote: ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck I had added in that part of her post in that the relationship really took off after his learning of her trauma. That to me was some big red flag. Thus my belief in his being a manipulator. I can't quite see his thought process in encouraging sex with multiple strangers to be the salve that heals a rape survivor. Then lets accuse him of being foolish and stupid, to begin with. "Manipulator" implies further motive. I mean, technically we're all manipulators in relationships every time we accept a partner's compromise on any issue. If his mistake was to presume she could capably consent to what was being requested, I fail to see how that's necessarily any affirmative proof of active manipulation. Perhaps indicative, yes. But I still have a very firm view of the traditional "innocent until proven guilty'" mindset when it comes to such accusations. quote: ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck I think that once something so traumatic is burned into the psyche there is no removing it from my personal experience. Not far different from people that survive plane crashes, or war or natural disasters. So what does that mean for future relationships? We're still dealing with an issue that, at the core, involves someone deciding what they want/like is not what they chose, after the fact. How do we even begin to determine those things while they're happening? How do we know that every rape survivor involved in BDSM isn't in it because of the effects of their emotional trauma and that, therefore, we shouldn't ban them from being able to indulge in it? Or relationships, period? quote: ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck Recovery is a pretty little word that doesn't exist. We survive, we move past it. Recovery as I said before is completed only when one is capable of being able to erase the memory of the trauma. 20 post rape I still wake up screaming once in awhile. Not nearly as often as all those years ago but there are still occasional triggers of memory. It can be something as someone speaking with a particular lisp (as my attacker did) that can make me shudder. Many people assume this is the catalyst of my being a FemDom. I was a Domme far before this occurred but it sure as hell fuels my sadistic side on occasions. So...(please feel free to ask me to secede from this particular discussion if it becomes too personal. I'm only really concerned with the most objective facts we can discover) do you still feel your relationship decisions are compromised by the event? How do you discern between ones which you are and aren't capable of consenting to? Do you feel comfortable projecting your own answers onto the decisions of others? quote: ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck Another question is would he have attempted this same treatment with someone who hadn't? Since the thread posted is one side of the story, we still wouldn't know that answer.

NihilusZero -> RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute (11/16/2009 10:13:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren He had been telling her to commit an illegal act. Whether prostitution should be illegal isn't the point. But he wasn't wrong? And he is fully within his rights in view of the lifestyle? Let's remove the sexual aspect from this. Is it equally okay, and is he equally free of blame if he tells her to go hold up convenience stores? Does that fall under the realm of it's okay, because she consented? You realize a plethora of BDSM-related acts are actually illegal in numerous US states...and people still consent to them, yes? quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren If someone encourages someone to do something that isn't good for them, it means they're doing something wrong, lifestyle or not. If someone is incapable of defining and self-supporting a system of what is and isn't good for them in a relationship (and making decisions that reflect those views) it's nobody's fault but their own and we'd still be back at the question of how we deal with these people who the legal system would treat as adults but who we are arguing are obviously not.

Llyren -> RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute (11/16/2009 10:22:09 PM)
Please hold back your shock, but I agree with you on both points. And not just because I did re-perv and those are indeed incense cones. Though my own personal and myopic image of you behind a barrier of a still, icy sea and sharks is still more amusing. But I digress. I also agree that we're only hearing her side of the story. Though I think she would have added more pathos had it not been accurate. Then, I tend to trust what people say to a certain extent. Yes, she should have been able to make good choices and decisions. At that point in her life, she wasn't, and he, in my opinion, encouraged and used this for his own profit and amusement. Not everyone is strong and self-sufficient. It doesn't make them bad people, or worthless people. It's just how they are. Some people are gullible, and it's just how they are. We don't punish them for being so, but we also really shouldn't applaud people who take advantage of them. I'm not a troll, and I don't deliberately cause controversy. In fact, I'm usually quite polite and amusing. I'm not sure how I ended up feeling like the villain of the equation, but I do. I'm seeing this more as if he were encouraging a diabetic to devour lots of white flour and corn syrup and not take any insulin, or twisting it so that a person with a heart condition believes the best thing for them is to go run up that steep hill in the middle of August. It's just -not- good.

NihilusZero -> RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute (11/16/2009 10:28:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren Please hold back your shock, but I agree with you on both points. And not just because I did re-perv and those are indeed incense cones. Though my own personal and myopic image of you behind a barrier of a still, icy sea and sharks is still more amusing. But I digress. See...if you're going to snipe, at least be cute and clever with it. [8D] quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren I also agree that we're only hearing her side of the story. Though I think she would have added more pathos had it not been accurate. Then, I tend to trust what people say to a certain extent. Can I come to you whining about my breakups, then? [:D] The patting on the back is always warm & fuzzy. [;)] quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren Yes, she should have been able to make good choices and decisions. At that point in her life, she wasn't, and he, in my opinion, encouraged and used this for his own profit and amusement. Yeah, but we all do that. We all want to believe that every relationship we enter into is with someone who magically happens to want exactly the same twisted things we do. And this is from someone who is not necessarily very positive on the human race...but I'd like to think we're all just more often mistaken and foolish than we are malignant and evil. quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren Not everyone is strong and self-sufficient. It doesn't make them bad people, or worthless people. It's just how they are. Some people are gullible, and it's just how they are. We don't punish them for being so, but we also really shouldn't applaud people who take advantage of them. I wouldn't applaud him at all. I'd actually be very curious as to whether he would applaud himself. I think that would be the most telling proof. quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren I'm not a troll, and I don't deliberately cause controversy. In fact, I'm usually quite polite and amusing. I'm not sure how I ended up feeling like the villain of the equation, but I do. Quit busting my ego! I was supposed to be the villain!!! quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren I'm seeing this more as if he were encouraging a diabetic to devour lots of white flour and corn syrup and not take any insulin, or twisting it so that a person with a heart condition believes the best thing for them is to go run up that steep hill in the middle of August. It's just -not- good. Normally, yes. I just have a very liberal view as to what constitutes "good"...one which usually begins at the willing consent of the parties involved. So, I have less of a leniency rope for those who change their tune after the fact. But situations in this case are awfully muddy. shrug

WyldHrt -> RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute (11/16/2009 10:34:59 PM)
quote: Also, going by her age, I would gather this was probably her first D/s experience (I also think she mentioned that it was- sorry I'm too tired to go back and reread, forgive me if I misquote). The thing I remember is that (it was also my first D/s experience) you really don't know what "normal" is anymore when you first enter the lifestyle. So much of one's preconceived ideas are challenged. Things that no longer phase one and so seem quite ordinary, to a newbie are very odd. When my dominant at that time first asked me to shave my pussy, I found it bizarre! Poly was unheard of. His infatuation with school girls worried me... then you get online and find out it's all quite common and your sense of red flags just gets all confused. Now you don't know whether he's a guy with a like for school girl fantasies or a pedophile. When you start questioning all the things that you used to take for granted as red flags, it is really hard to watch out for yourself. You read about what a slave should be, and he wants you to do things. At first they are small, so you do them no problem. Then they get harder, but still small enough not to be so huge that you freak out, so you tell yourself it's pushing your limits and that's normal. It's really really hard to distinguish the line between abuse and D/s when you are new. I was not even young- I was in my 30s when I was officially introduced to the lifestyle and I would have hoped had some life experience to guide me. But I didn't. I believed what I read about the ideal Master slave relationship. That a dominant would nurture and protect you and that when he said he loved me, he meant it. I thought we had something deep but I was just a play thing. I fell for it hook line and sinker. He did a lot of damage to my life and emotionally to me. Then it was hard to leave... why because leaving would have involved admitting that he didn't love me, that it was all a lie and that I'd been used and been stupid. Somehow, we just don't want to believe that. And when we have moments when we are close to believing it, and we confront him in words or in our journals, they usually find all the right things to say to smooth it over and leave you feeling like you were having some hormonal thing or some sub-drop thing, and you dismiss it again... this goes on and on and on over and over until finally some catalyst comes to change things hopefully and you finally say enough. THANK YOU, Anna!!!!! [:)] I have tried on certain threads to explain why it often seems like new submissives "check their brain at the door" and sometimes make decisions that are, in retrospect and the 20-20 hindsight of education in "the lifestyle", very stupid or self destructive. You said it better than I ever have. Well done!

Llyren -> RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute (11/16/2009 10:39:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren I also agree that we're only hearing her side of the story. Though I think she would have added more pathos had it not been accurate. Then, I tend to trust what people say to a certain extent. ORIGINAL: NihilusZero Can I come to you whining about my breakups, then? [:D] The patting on the back is always warm & fuzzy. [;)] Absolutely, I'm good with warm fuzzy for a certain period, and unstinting taking of your part, till you spend too much time on the Hamster Wheel, in which case I'll go back to MUDding, and just say "mmm hmmm" and "poor dear" at random intervals. Though I really did initially view your profile pic that way. quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren Yes, she should have been able to make good choices and decisions. At that point in her life, she wasn't, and he, in my opinion, encouraged and used this for his own profit and amusement. Yeah, but we all do that. We all want to believe that every relationship we enter into is with someone who magically happens to want exactly the same twisted things we do. And this is from someone who is not necessarily very positive on the human race...but I'd like to think we're all just more often mistaken and foolish than we are malignant and evil. Then you are, amazingly enough, more positive in this case than I am, because I do believe some people are malignant and evil, and they enjoy it. quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren Not everyone is strong and self-sufficient. It doesn't make them bad people, or worthless people. It's just how they are. Some people are gullible, and it's just how they are. We don't punish them for being so, but we also really shouldn't applaud people who take advantage of them. ORIGINAL: NihilusZero I wouldn't applaud him at all. I'd actually be very curious as to whether he would applaud himself. I think that would be the most telling proof. Which is why I'm being so harsh with him. I think he was patting himself on the back at having found such a gullible girl. quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren I'm not a troll, and I don't deliberately cause controversy. In fact, I'm usually quite polite and amusing. I'm not sure how I ended up feeling like the villain of the equation, but I do. ORIGINAL: NihilusZero Quit busting my ego! I was supposed to be the villain!!! Sigh. Fiiiiiine. You get to be the villain. But I get to be your snarky lieutenant. quote: ORIGINAL: Llyren I'm seeing this more as if he were encouraging a diabetic to devour lots of white flour and corn syrup and not take any insulin, or twisting it so that a person with a heart condition believes the best thing for them is to go run up that steep hill in the middle of August. It's just -not- good. ORIGINAL: NihilusZero Normally, yes. I just have a very liberal view as to what constitutes "good"...one which usually begins at the willing consent of the parties involved. So, I have less of a leniency rope for those who change their tune after the fact. But situations in this case are awfully muddy. shrug I'm not saying she didn't consent to these things. What I am saying is that she really wasn't in a healthy frame of mind, and that he took advantage of it. I don't believe that she would have risked her life and her future so recklessly had he not been doing so. Now it's your turn to have a less positive view of the human race. Maybe I am viewing this from a too-vanilla standpoint, though I certainly hope not. I can't possibly imagine, having a healthy point of reference, and a non-damaged self-image, letting someone twice my age convince me that being a prostitute and giving him the money was a good idea. Based on what *she has said,* what he did was no different then telling someone addicted to cocaine that heroin would be a good way to handle the addiction. (edited for spelling and format)

SDFemDom4cuck -> RE: when a d/s relationship becomes pimp/prostitute (11/16/2009 10:59:30 PM)
Nihilus. But, does everyone need to go through the same coping mechanisms you used? I'm simply stating what worked for me and my personal experience and relationship with surviving this type of trauma. What worked for me may or may not work for others. Obviously I wouldn't have brought up the fact that I was attacked if I was uncomfortable discussing it especially in a public forum where thousands (ok maybe not) of people can view it. I'm not ashamed of what happened because it had nothing to do with me personally. It was utterly and completely out of my control and yes I take some semblance of responsibility for what happened to me in a sense. I was in a place I shouldn't have been and not as careful as I've learned to be. All I can do is tell my side of it. What someone gains or learns from it is up to them. And if someone uses a mechanisms that empowers them on an intelletual level but still gives them freedom to act otherwise normally in situations with similar dynamics, wo9uld you not consider that they may have an idea that makes more personallty better sense? The key word there is if and from the sound of the OP's post I would say she has not even begun to deal with the trauma she underwent. I would even go so far as to posit that she perhaps was using the relationship (in the beginning) as a way to avoid the reality of what she went through. Gaining control of a situation to deal with one in which she had none. Not unlike my choice of taking shooting lessons, arming myself and taking defense classes in order to be able to take control of the situation should I find myself in it ever again. Again, I'm not saying scars don't stay with someone...but it also doesn't mean that we are forever moved and puppeteered by our scars. Honestly, I have no place to even begin to compare anything in my life to the horror of being raped, but I can't imagine a healing process that simultaneously demands that the victim be forever manacled wby what happened to them. And this still bring up the gray area question of when we allow sufferers of such atrocities to be permitted the right to consent (normally) again. The healing process only goes so far. Again, I am not the same person that I was prior to the attack. I never will be. That goes far beyond the physical scars I see in the mirror on a daily basis. You also cannot possibly imagine trying to heal when you have such daily reminders. I have no problems with the suggestion that I have not suffered rape (as I have not). I also do not presume to be emotionally privy to what it must be like emotionally. But, we are again dealing with a question of what the effects are of severe emotional trauma. And we are specifically only dealing with whether previous victims can ever be considered capable, on any normal level, of consensual relationship decisions. If it is in error, I apologize, but I'll the context of your words to mean you have suffered through such an event. that would be correct because I stated as much. At what point, then, did you feel you were personally capable of consenting to decision in a romantic aspect again? I never felt I wasn't capable. But then I dealt with my trauma with counseling and a great deal self reflection. Did I make some stupid choices after the rape. Yes, I did. Do I associate those choices with the attack? I didn't at the time, again after some reflection I do now. However I never personally felt I wasn't capable. Regardless of whether I was or wasn't. How would you suggest we treat those who have suffered similar tragedies? Like any other human being...not with pity but with empathy and compassion. And, at what point are we constricting them (more than helping them) by suggesting that they can never 'really' be over the horrible events that happened to them? I'm not suggesting it. I'm stating that it is a fact. I, nor anyone else who has been through an assault, can ever erase that it happened. It does not define me, it is simply a fact of my life and an experience I have been through. I cannot make it undone. I cannot change it. It is simply a part of who I am. The sum of my experiences are what make me who I am today. While I will not ever be "over" it, I can choose how I allow it to control my life. I can choose to live in fear or I can choose to move past it. I can choose to let it consume me by not dealing with the trauma or I can choose to get counseling and learn to live with the situation. Then lets accused him of being foolish and stupid, to begin with. "Manipulator" implies further motive. I mean, technically we're all manipulators in relationship, every time we accept a partner's compromise on any issue. If his mistake was to presume she could capably consent to what was being requested, I fail to see how that's necessarily any affirmative proof of active manipulation. Perhaps indicative, yes. But I still have a very firm view of the traditional "innocent until proven guilty'" mindset when it comes to such accusations. Or he purposely chose her because she was vulnerable and able to be manipulated more easily than someone else into the situation as described. Yes, I'm a manipulator. Obviously I manipulate my sub into accepting the fact that I won't be monogamous in order to have a relationship with me. (I'm a cuckoldress). I will fully admit my manipulations to that extent. However, My manipulations are not illegal nor would they put either of us in jail for illegal acts outside of some blue laws regarding sodomy. As far as I recall the OP is not in Nevada, therefore the act of prostitution is an illegal act. So if it sounds like a manipulation, looks like a manipulation, and is indicative of manipulation....is it not simply possible it is in fact manipulation? So...(please feel free to ask me to secede from this particular discussion if it becomes to personal. I'm only really concerned with the most objective facts we can discover) do you still feel your relationship deicions are compromised by the event? How do you discern between ones which you are and aren't capable of consenting to? Do you feel comfortable projecting your own answers onto the decisions of others? Obviously it's far past personal. If I didn't feel like answering the questions I simply wouldn't. My relationship decisions aren't compromised by the event. I can't project my answers into the decisions of others. While it may seem as though I'm being the voice of reason and sensibility in regard to this particular trauma, I can only discuss my experience with it as both a survivor and an advocate for 20 years. Anyone else is free to discuss their experience with it as well. The only decisions I find compromised (not the best choice of words) by my experience would be in that I don't put myself into situations that may be dangerous. Most of which would appear to be common sense but when young and seemingly invincible may not seem necessary.

Page: << < prev 4 5 6 [7] 8 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.0625