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windy135 -> Deaf Culture (3/10/2006 6:21:09 PM)

I'm just curious to see how many people on collarme are interested or know anything about Deaf Culture? The post about a deaf person and a safe word arosed curiosity in the matter. Anyone have feelings about cochlear implants I would love to debate the topic with someone.... lol yes I'm bored on a Friday night kinda sad!



IronBear -> RE: Deaf Culture (3/10/2006 6:48:49 PM)

I won't debat the subject for to do so requires me to have knowledge which I don't. I am sufficiently interested to listen and learn though.



Vancouver_cinful -> RE: Deaf Culture (3/10/2006 6:52:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: windy135

I'm just curious to see how many people on collarme are interested or know anything about Deaf Culture? The post about a deaf person and a safe word arosed curiosity in the matter. Anyone have feelings about cochlear implants I would love to debate the topic with someone.... lol yes I'm bored on a Friday night kinda sad!

Oral Deaf Education is my business. (This involves developing spoken language though the use of hearing aids/Implants). I have a lot of experience with cochlear implants, what would you like to know?

I also hung out with several friends in the gay community a few years ago, who were deaf (signing) adults, and I was almost fluent in American Sign Language at one point...so ask away.

Cin



ownedgirlie -> RE: Deaf Culture (3/10/2006 7:00:00 PM)

i took an ASL class from a local Deaf Institute, by a deaf instructor. It is a beautiful language, in my opinion. i only wish i had reason to use it more so i would remember it better. i plan to study it further, in my life.

Re: cochlear implants. A controversial issue, as i recall. i watched the documentary on it - - i can't recall its title now. Very interesting debate. Our class had a lively debate on them as well.

i second cinful's inquiry - what would you like to know?



BitaTruble -> RE: Deaf Culture (3/10/2006 7:03:20 PM)

I'll give it a go. Himself is an audiologist and I worked for a hearing aid manufacturer.

Cochlear implants are getting better all the time and they are quite remarkable. They have restored communication abilities to a wide variety of people, especially children who had never heard a sound before. You have to go through a number of stringent qualifying prerequisites before being a cochlear implant candidate. Age, what sort of communication abilities they already have, any residual hearing, if any, any physical or physiological contraindications etc. After implantation, there is fairly intense period of rehabilitation because it delivers different levels of results to different people.

::blows kisses to Himself for the input::

Ok, what is it that you want to debate?

Celeste



Vancouver_cinful -> RE: Deaf Culture (3/10/2006 7:10:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
Re: cochlear implants. A controversial issue, as i recall. i watched the documentary on it - - i can't recall its title now.


Was the documentary called Sound And Fury?

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/soundandfury/

I saw this when it first came out. I find it sad that people still feel that implants are some horrible thing. Laser eye surgery is acceptable, as are many other kinds of surgery that help people get more out of life, but an implant becomes something cruel and inhumane?

Yes, sign language is a beautiful language, and if you're deaf, and unable to learn to speak (there are reasons why some deaf people can't but as time goes on those reasons have dwindled), then it's a great mode of communication...BUT, it doesn't replace speaking and hearing your native language.

Cin



Vancouver_cinful -> RE: Deaf Culture (3/10/2006 7:21:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
They have restored communication abilities to a wide variety of people, especially children who had never heard a sound before.


Oh yes, there is nothing like watching a child go through the first year after implantation. From a state of extremely limited communication they can progress very quickly with the right habilitation.

Our school specializes in oralism, and we have been working with implanted kids since I started working there 16 years ago. I've only seen one case in all those years where the implant was unable to give any benefit at all.

In most cases the kids were communicating in full sentences within 18 months after surgery. (Most went from a small vocabulary, if any at all, and their spoken language consisted of one word utterances).

I've also seen adults, who were once in our program, go for implants, and some of them found it a longer period of habilitation. Children adapt faster, in general. Children as young as 15 months of age are getting implanted...and for these kids, deafness will only be as limiting to them as my myopic vision is to me.

Cin



ownedgirlie -> RE: Deaf Culture (3/10/2006 7:32:15 PM)

quote:

I saw this when it first came out. I find it sad that people still feel that implants are some horrible thing. Laser eye surgery is acceptable, as are many other kinds of surgery that help people get more out of life, but an implant becomes something cruel and inhumane?

Yes, sign language is a beautiful language, and if you're deaf, and unable to learn to speak (there are reasons why some deaf people can't but as time goes on those reasons have dwindled), then it's a great mode of communication...BUT, it doesn't replace speaking and hearing your native language.


YES! that was the movie.

i was the only one in class who was on your side of the debate. i asked, why then is eye surgery okay, and prosthetics, etc. The answer i received is the community honors who and what they are, and does not want to be viewed as "handicapped." my question to them, and i attempted to be delicate about it, is...if a part of the body is not functioning as it was designed to function....how is that not a handicap? The consensus seemed to be, if this is how we are created, there is no need to change it. The group i spoke with did not like the presumption that they were somehow not "normal," thus needing to be "repaired." They felt their other senses were heightened as a result of lack of hearing, and that was a gift.





windy135 -> RE: Deaf Culture (3/10/2006 8:36:48 PM)

I love that people added to my post... joy

Vancouver: My question to you is,, how do you feel about oral only approach? Do you think it's fair to try to teach deaf kids (without cochlear implants) to do speech only NO sigh?

Bitatruble: Something I have been pondering.. hopefully going to graduate school to be an audiologist myself... do you think parents are educated enough on Deaf Culture and the benefits of learning sign language when they see an audilogist. I don't think parents are educated enough on all the options.. and since 95% of deaf kids have hearing parents I believe it to be a problem.

Ownedgirlie: your debate sounded interesting but it was a hearing persons debate there were no Deaf or deaf people involved correct? I remember the first time I saw that movie and I thought wtf are they talking about .. get the cochlear implant and fix the problem.. but the more I learned about Deaf culture and everything the more I realized what they meant.. :)

Thanks for the responces everyone.. I just want all to know that even if this debate gets heated up I'm going to love it and I respect everyones opinions even if I don't agree.. :)



windy135 -> RE: Deaf Culture (3/10/2006 8:39:10 PM)

Hey did you guys know both the mom and daughter from "the sound of fury" got cochlear implants a couple years after the movie... ???



ownedgirlie -> RE: Deaf Culture (3/10/2006 8:45:16 PM)

quote:

Ownedgirlie: your debate sounded interesting but it was a hearing persons debate there were no Deaf or deaf people involved correct? I remember the first time I saw that movie and I thought wtf are they talking about .. get the cochlear implant and fix the problem.. but the more I learned about Deaf culture and everything the more I realized what they meant.. :)


All of the people in the class were there because they had a deaf family member, usually a child or grandchild. The instructor was deaf. All in the class had negative views toward the implants.

To add my 2 cents in elsewhere, the instructor was not taught to sign as a child - her hearing father did not believe in it and forced her to learn to speak and read lips. This ended up alienating her from the deaf community as well as the hearing, because she felt she didn't "belong" anywhere, because communication was now limited in both realms. It was a sad story.

Bita - no i did not know that. That's very interesting...i wonder what changed their minds?



Vancouver_cinful -> RE: Deaf Culture (3/10/2006 8:56:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
The answer i received is the community honors who and what they are, and does not want to be viewed as "handicapped." my question to them, and i attempted to be delicate about it, is...if a part of the body is not functioning as it was designed to function....how is that not a handicap?


Yes, this is a common argument, and while I support their right to be seen as functional adults, I would not consider it noble to see someone with my eyesight try to survive without glasses, or a parapalegic try to get to their job without the help of a wheelchair, or other assistive device. Unnecessary struggle is not noble. Nor does functioning less effectively than one could seem like a rational decision for a functioning adult to make.


quote:

The consensus seemed to be, if this is how we are created, there is no need to change it. The group i spoke with did not like the presumption that they were somehow not "normal," thus needing to be "repaired." They felt their other senses were heightened as a result of lack of hearing, and that was a gift.


The belief that a disability/handicap/disease is a gift is well recognized as a psychological coping strategy. If one can rationalize their situation this way, it causes less grief.

People with hearing losses who consider themselves a part of the Deaf Culture express this sentiment over, and over, and one individual was even quoted in a Canadian magazine (MacLeans) that if someone were to restore his hearing he would simply poke a pencil in his ear so he could be deaf again. I can't support this kind of reasoning.

There is no evidence, that I've seen, to support the old theory that people who have lost one sense are compensated by more acuteness in their other senses. They are simply more dependant on those other senses and therefore are more aware of them.

To say that a Deaf adult (they capitalize the D to show cultural affiliation) is better off not being able to speak the same language as their families and countrymen, if it is possible for them to do so, just doesn't hold up as a reasonable argument in my eyes.

Cin



ownedgirlie -> RE: Deaf Culture (3/10/2006 9:14:49 PM)

quote:

and one individual was even quoted in a Canadian magazine (MacLeans) that if someone were to restore his hearing he would simply poke a pencil in his ear so he could be deaf again. I can't support this kind of reasoning.


It is a human tendency to stay with what is comfortable, if that is all one knows. Can you imagine the traumatic effect one might experience, to suddenly be privy to a whole new world? It would be frightening and incredibly overwhelming. Therefore, staying "inside the box," in the comfort of what they know, is far more appealing.

As for any deprivation being a gift, perhaps the perspective is dependent on one's spiritual beliefs.

i had no idea about the capitalized D.

Re: speaking a different language - my contention is that more knowledge is always better than less. If i could speak 10 languages or 1, i would opt for 10. i had no reason to take the ASL class other than i wanted to learn the language. The more people i am able to communicate with, the broader my horizons expand.



Vancouver_cinful -> RE: Deaf Culture (3/10/2006 9:14:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
To add my 2 cents in elsewhere, the instructor was not taught to sign as a child - her hearing father did not believe in it and forced her to learn to speak and read lips. This ended up alienating her from the deaf community as well as the hearing, because she felt she didn't "belong" anywhere, because communication was now limited in both realms. It was a sad story.



In the past, when the methods of educating deaf children were just as horrific as those of teaching children with developmental delays or any other challenge, many deaf children were punished for gesturing, and many were taken away from their families to be schooled. Do you wonder that they felt they didn't belong anywhere?

The technology and methods of teaching now are focused on the whole child, and that includes their family dynamics. The goal of oralism is to give the deaf child every opportunity to thrive in the world at large, and not be alienated into small communities like the Deaf Culture.

My students build friendships with deaf and hearing kids alike, and many that went to our school two decades ago, as still in communication with their old classmates. They're also married, working, and living in the world at large...not in an isolated community.

They are not dependant on interpreters, (except occasionally in specific situations when the acoustics may be problematic), or on friends and families, to communicate their needs and desires, and because of this they have better opportunities for employment.

I think this outweighs the benefits of belonging to a small, segregated community.

I am thankful that the Deaf community exists to support those who are not oral, but I have yet to be convinced that they are of greater value than an individual having the ability to interact independantly within the greater community of family and country.

Cin



ownedgirlie -> RE: Deaf Culture (3/10/2006 9:17:59 PM)

quote:

I am thankful that the Deaf community exists to support those who are not oral, but I have yet to be convinced that they are of greater value than an individual having the ability to interact independantly within the greater community of family and country.


i agree with this. The broader one's thinking, the broader one's ability to communicate, the more exposure to cultures, the more education one can receive....the better. How can it not be?



BitaTruble -> RE: Deaf Culture (3/10/2006 9:22:07 PM)

quote:

Something I have been pondering.. hopefully going to graduate school to be an audiologist myself... do you think parents are educated enough on Deaf Culture and the benefits of learning sign language when they see an audilogist. I don't think parents are educated enough on all the options.. and since 95% of deaf kids have hearing parents I believe it to be a problem.


Audiologists are diagnosticians and rehabilitation providers for people who have some residual hearing. They don't, generally, work with parents at that level. Parents would be referred to specially trained deaf educators, otolaryngologists, schools etc. Now, there are some audiologists who do work and have specialized in this area, but that takes additional training and schooling. Most clinical audiologists are not certified in ASL and to work at a deaf school, one would require certification in that area. Audiologists who do work at deaf schools tend to have very strong backgrounds in pediatric audiology. Himself was a clinical audiologist and while he holds a certificate ::as opposed to being certified:: in ASL, his area of expertise is geriatrics and retro-cochlear diagnostics. If you are interested in working with the deaf community, you might want to consider going into deaf education instead of audiology. They are two very different things.

As for parents being educated: It's a process. When a parent first takes their child to the doctor and then to a pediatric audiologist, no, of course they are not educated. They don't know anything yet! Now, what can be good for debate for this thread would be the debate between early intervention and later intervention. Those on the early side believe such is important because it allows the child to play 'catch-up' much more quickly and there have been 'some' studies which indicate such early intervention can increase test scores in some subject areas later on. Those on the late side believe that bonding between parents is more important and that such intervention can and should be delayed so that bonding can take place.

In addition, there is also the grieving process that needs to be taken into consideration before any education can begin. Starting with denial and ending with acceptance. The quicker those steps take place, the better it is for the child's best interest and that is very personal and individual to the families involved. In my own work with the hearing impaired, I know what it's like to see someone who has been fit with their very first hearing aid and to see the look of wonder on their faces when they hear clearly for the very first time. It's an amazing thing and reminds me of when I got my first pair of glasses. Without them, I'm legally blind, so to put them on for the first time opened up a whole new world for me. Colors, clarity.. the works. I imagine what I felt then is akin to what someone who is hearing impaired would go through with that auditory wonder. No amount of education is going to help a family who is not willing to put in the time and effort necessary to make it successful though.. and no audiologist can help a family who can't or won't help themselves.

Himself holds pediatric audiologists in the highest regard and deaf educators as angels. He's a softie that way. :)

Celeste



Vancouver_cinful -> RE: Deaf Culture (3/10/2006 9:32:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: windy135
Vancouver: My question to you is,, how do you feel about oral only approach? Do you think it's fair to try to teach deaf kids (without cochlear implants) to do speech only NO sigh?


I've worked in an oral-only school for 16 years. I have had many students return to visit, and to sit on panels in order to help new families understand what oralism can mean to a person with a hearing loss in the long term. They speak very emotionally about their gratitude to their families for being given the opportunity to be oral.

My students, for the most part, are happy, communicative, typical students who cry when they have to stay home because of illness. They love school...even speech therapy time, which the teachers strive to make as fun as possible.

They don't all have implants, but yes, they are all aided by hearing aids or implants. Today's technology has made it possible for most deaf people to be able to hear at least some of the speech range, if not all. I'm sure Bita can speak more on the audiology of it all.

Almost all my students are unaware that signing even exists. They were never exposed to it, and they don't miss it. Do they use gestures and mime to get their ideas across when they don't know the words...sure. And they aren't punished for it. The more language they learn, the less they gesture.

A responsible oral school will recognize when a child is faced with other difficulties (auditory processing problems, severe learning challenges, etc) and will know when to gently and lovingly help the family move to a signing approach. This is not seen as failure...it's seen as being in the best interests of the child.

By the way, some of our biggest ongoing supporters, are families who's children did not become successful oral communicators. They still recognize the importance of oralism in deaf education.

Cin (who knows she's writing a novel and apologizes. I'm passionate about what I do!)



Vancouver_cinful -> RE: Deaf Culture (3/10/2006 9:46:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
Re: speaking a different language - my contention is that more knowledge is always better than less. If i could speak 10 languages or 1, i would opt for 10. i had no reason to take the ASL class other than i wanted to learn the language. The more people i am able to communicate with, the broader my horizons expand.

Absolutely. I am very much in support of people learning many languages, but we all know that it's easier to learn a language when you are young. Since (in our case) English is the major language spoken in our country it makes sense that if possible it should be the first language the child speaks. After all, he/she will be educated and employed in an English-dependant culture.

Oralists believe that since the auditory nerves will atrophy from lack of use, time is of the essence to teach a child to use their hearing and speech. We also believe that learning sign language and english at the same time is problematic (one being a visual language and the other being auditory - it becomes easy to fall back on the easier of the two), and few children educated with this combined approach become successful oral communicators. How many people learn a second language without some immersion approach? Think of oralism as English Immersion.

Many of our children go on to speak Cantonese, Hindi, or whatever other language their family speaks. Few feel the need to go on and learn sign although it is certianly available to them.

Cin



Vancouver_cinful -> RE: Deaf Culture (3/10/2006 9:51:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
It is a human tendency to stay with what is comfortable, if that is all one knows. Can you imagine the traumatic effect one might experience, to suddenly be privy to a whole new world? It would be frightening and incredibly overwhelming. Therefore, staying "inside the box," in the comfort of what they know, is far more appealing.


For some people, yes. But there are adults who have been deaf all their lives who have opted for implants, in later years. At that point it's unlikely that they will get the full benefit a child would get, but most of them are thrilled with the opportunities it affords them.

Some people thrive on challenge, and stepping out of your comfort zone is recognized as the sign of a fully actualized and confident adult.

Cin



windy135 -> RE: Deaf Culture (3/10/2006 10:01:59 PM)

I'm so intrested in what everyone has to say...

BitaTruble: You might be surprised to know that I'm sooo interested in cochlear implants I just love them.. :) I also think hearing aids are great.. I've read and talked with a few Deaf people who were never introduced to Deaf Culture and somewhat resented their parents with never giving them the option .. I guess I fall in total communication range. I think give the child an aid or an implant but teach them sign also. This way they can get the best of both worlds.

Vancouver: That's great that you so passionate about your career I bet you help those kids sooo much. Right now I'm in undergrad so I can either go Audiology or speech language pathology from here. I do believe total communication is the way to go.. just my opinion.


To the subject of correctings ones deafness: Deaf people just don't look at their deafness the same way hearing people do. Of course we don't understand, were not deaf. The thing is some people could wear hearing aids or get an implant to restore some of their deafness but an implant is not a cure. A person with a cochlear implant doesnt hear the same way you and I do. Plus they are missing out on nothing really, they can communicate, live, marry, go to school. Some people say that how can they not want to learn to talk. Most deaf people can't learn to speak.. hello!! there deaf. I have met 5 Deaf people that went to oral schools and really didn't like it. They said why try to speak when they can sign? Any thoughts?



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