How Tax Hikes on Businesses Don't Work - The New York State Model

How Tax Hikes on Businesses Don't Work - The New York State Model (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> How Tax Hikes on Businesses Don't Work - The New York State Model (11/16/2009 8:32:28 AM)
Once upon a time, in land of the liberal entitlement rich land of New York State, a wave of Democrats came into power. Were Republicans an animal in New York, they'd be on endangered species list. They had a Democratic Governor and a major majority in the State Senate. Being Democrats they They imposed about $8 billion in new taxes and fees in their first year of power, thinking that they had the State deficit problem solved. Tax, tax, tax, and the money will role in to give out in pay back entitlements for the special interest groups that paid to put us in power. But something happened that the Democrats, with their foresight, didn't consider. Instead of accepting their taxes businesses moved away from the land of New York. People who could make decisions to pay more tax or close their New York locations - closed. Individuals with money to invest and spend, incurring new taxes and regulations, didn't. In less than a year, the $8 Billion wasn't enough. Too many more people needed services and too many fewer people were in New York to pay more taxes. The Democrats couldn't blame themselves - they're NEVER wrong you know - it must be the leader! They had a great Governor who was the bane of New York business and used to extort money as District Attorney by threatening litigation. The process bears his name - 'Spritzer Scrutiny', and cost Billions in litigation defense to many businesses, that ultimately cost the business customers more money, but it made for great press; right up until 'Spritzer Scrutiny' was focused on Spritzer and his life behind the facade he showed, didn't stand up to any scrutiny. So, a man, put on the ticket as a PC choice. A hard worker, a lifelong Democratic party member serving the party well, given the Lieutenant job as a reward. They never thought he would ever be in charge - but shit happens and he came into power. He was blind, but wasn't blind to reality. He was able to add 1+1 and said the budget is still a mess. He said there was no room for more taxes and instead announced cuts. "'CUTS!!' to entitlements!" made the governor a pariah in his own party. Even the party King said such a proclamation made the governor unqualified to run for reelection. But the governor would not be brow-beaten. He's running again. Not only that, he's announced the cuts. But the Democrats will not accept that reality. They've said no - lets tax businesses some more. Businesses that are so heavily regulated that they can't leave New York State, health care. While the nation debates health-care reform, state Democrats are secretly considering $1 billion in new taxes on medical services. The Democrats don't want to cut programs as Paterson proposed, so they're looking at a health-care hike as an alternative," said the source. "They're looking at another round of tax hikes." quote: They'd be imposed on top of about $8 billion in new taxes and fees approved earlier. Since the new taxes would show up on bills to insurance companies, they would likely raise premium rates. The measure would also hit local governments, which pay a portion of all Medicaid costs. They would then scramble to make up their losses through taxes. New Yorkers already dig deep for their medical insurance. City residents who buy their medical coverage directly from insurers saw premiums skyrocket 20 percent to 30 percent this year, a Post analysis shows. For GHI's policyholders, premiums surged 30 percent. That means the monthly cost for an individual shot up to $2,277 for HMO coverage, a $526 increase compared with a year ago. The price tag now comes to a staggering $27,324 a year. Health-care experts agree the increases are evidence that the market for individual policies -- mostly from the city -- has collapsed. (Remember this for the National version, except the younger policy holders, by law, will be REQUIRED to buy it or suffer fines, currently in the Bill, or jail time, alluded to by the Bill)They described a vicious cycle in which yearly increases drive younger and healthier policyholders to drop their insurance coverage, leaving sicker and older customers in a shrinking pool to pay for even higher medical premiums. There are about 31,000 policyholders in the direct-pay market, down from more than 100,000 a decade ago "The direct-pay market has been in a death spiral for years. It's the worst place to be," said David Sandman of the New York State Health Foundation. LINK The moral of the story... A tax increase on business IS a tax increase on individuals.

mnottertail -> RE: How Tax Hikes on Businesses Don't Work - The New York State Model (11/16/2009 8:41:22 AM)
not a truely compelling argument. It would depend on the business size, income, purpose and whatnot. Offhand there is Verizon and IBM in NY and there are others. While I agree for small business, (where the cutoff is, I am not sure I have that worked out in my mind) I do not agree that we shouldn't tax the dogshit out of large multinationals and other sorts of big corporations, because of their detriment. Hey, love canal, why should taxpayers pay for that sort of shit? otherwise, big taxes aren't a good thing (DUH). Ron

Musicmystery -> RE: How Tax Hikes on Businesses Don't Work - The New York State Model (11/16/2009 8:46:41 AM)
And 12 years of Pataki, taking care of his cronies (with whom we're stuck in many agencies), and until recently a Republican Senate, with a leader also taking care of his cronies--for which he's currently on trial (and yes, a Dem Assembly leader doing the same)--that's the issue in NY. Has been for decades. Oh, sorry. I know how Mercland doesn't allow anything outside the assumption's rules. Now, if you want to actually make a case for business/tax, fine. Do so. Should even be easy. Maybe expand your model. Oh, and perhaps do your research first. [Incidentally..."major majority in the State Senate"? They're up by a seat, and not even for a year yet--and a month of that was a Republican coup attempt, when literally nothing got done while opposing leaderships sorting out reality and legality from hubris. Check some facts, instead of repeating what you hear on right-wing media.]

Anarrus -> RE: How Tax Hikes on Businesses Don't Work - The New York State Model (11/16/2009 9:07:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth The moral of the story... A tax increase on business IS a tax increase on individuals. I thought it was fairly common knowledge that any business expenses, including taxes, are passed on to individuals in the form of a higher priced product or service. I've lived in NY all my life I'll vouch for everything Tim says. All's not rosey in NY and hasn't been for a long long time. Frankly our state government and the political bickering they do is an embarassment. One thing you failed to mention though Merc, is that NY tax revenues took a huge hit when Wall Street took the hit it did last year and many lost their high income tax revenue producing jobs. I heard that repeated over and over again in the local and state media outlets. Not sure how true it is, but that's what was said anyway.

Mercnbeth -> RE: How Tax Hikes on Businesses Don't Work - The New York State Model (11/16/2009 10:10:30 AM)
quote: revenues took a huge hit when Wall Street took the hit it did last year and many lost their high income tax revenue producing jobs. They'll continue to do so with these actions taken by the NY Senate; meaning that the workers and individual tax payers will have to take up the slack. Cutting entitlements would seem to be an obvious solution that the Governor wanted implemented. Why can't it happen? It would take away the pressure and perhaps slow down business closings and moving out of State. quote: until recently a Republican Senate, "Until recently - means - NOT now. quote: major majority in the State Senate Correct only a majority of those making this decision are Democrats. That changes the result? quote: Check some facts Why? You can't refute the underlying truth, $8 Billion of new taxes passed by the Democratic Senate and Governor. It's not enough to pay for the entitlements. They want to increase taxes some more by $1 Billion to be paid by those who can least afford to do so. Sure - you had a nice, faith based reply for the Democratic religion you follow - but you couldn't refute the reality of their actions. Try doing some research on reality and you'll find it easier than doing so on faith.

Musicmystery -> RE: How Tax Hikes on Businesses Don't Work - The New York State Model (11/16/2009 10:28:41 AM)
Again with the false dilemma and the straw man faith crap. You don't know the first thing about my political (or economic) convictions. Define reality anyway you wish. It is Mercland, after all, where only the things you choose to believe are real. "Answer me!" you cry again and again, brushing aside the wider contexts that are reality outside Mercland's narrow borders. Whine away. Dems bad. Got it. We're all shocked. Thanks for the heads up. Bad for business. Understood. One day when you actually own a business instead of sitting in someone else's office, you'll understand. Until then, fill the dull work day with CM and right-wing media. Enjoy. But you're off on a non-issue in the face of lots of very serious issues. That's what you don't get. Or want to. If you want to trash New York, you could do a much better job. But you'll have to leave Mercland's borders, and that means you'll lose your special powers. And you'll have to learn a few real facts about New York.

Mercnbeth -> RE: How Tax Hikes on Businesses Don't Work - The New York State Model (11/16/2009 10:48:26 AM)
quote: You don't know the first thing about my political (or economic) convictions. Nor do I care. However as opposed to rhetoric and attempted insult it would be interesting to see your interpretation or better yet, a direct response, if you had one. quote: "Answer me!" Granted, and obviously - you can't; but I can dream can't I? quote: Dems bad. Got it. See there - really no don't; "Got it." If you had the ability to break away from your faith, you'd understand that the 'bad' is qualitative and I point to quantitative results. Dollars and it making no sense isn't party specific as your religion's dogma requires you believe. quote: you're off on a non-issue To you, a "non-issue" is a bankrupt State having reduced revenue needing another $1 Billion to pay for entitlements after already passing an $8 Billion tax increase within the past 12 months. You need to be a religious fanatic to think that's a "non-issue"! quote: One day when you actually own a business instead of sitting in someone else's office, you'll understand. One day? Since you have no response and need to take this personal; I own the one who's office I sit in right now. You? Ever got anything you didn't get by entitlement or from your own abilities instead of someone else's ideas and effort?

Musicmystery -> RE: How Tax Hikes on Businesses Don't Work - The New York State Model (11/16/2009 10:52:07 AM)
And we're back to Mercland. Since the last one leaves Mercland--yes, I've worked for myself for 30 years now. I own my home, my orchards, my vineyards, my gardens, my tree plantation, and my copyrights. I don't need Social Security to retire. I still save against catastrophic medical expenses. And these days, I teach others how to enter and compete in the business world. It's about matching resources, skills, and needs. That doesn't change, only the climates. That's why I'm always in business. Markets are markets. Change with them.

Mercnbeth -> RE: How Tax Hikes on Businesses Don't Work - The New York State Model (11/16/2009 10:56:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery And we're back to Mercland. "Merc Land" - I like the sound of that. It's a reality based place, where indeed I own a company, live comfortable, pay taxes, invest in my employees, can point to issues and take a pragmatic position without party bias. Yeah - I LIKE it! Especially when the opposite would be 'music land' a mysterious place where truth is party specific and challenge to dogma is hierarchy! 'Merc-Land' WOW! Feel free to refer to reality that way, I'm honored! Appreciate your lack of ability to do anything else. Have faith!

Musicmystery -> RE: How Tax Hikes on Businesses Don't Work - The New York State Model (11/16/2009 11:01:13 AM)
As long as you cling to strawman, that's all that's left--your fantasy world. You indicated immediately that you didn't want to actually discuss New York's situation. That's your pattern too. Mercland. No discussion, just an assumption and then pile on the questions, never answering them yourself, never considering the issues are bigger than your narrow conception. Mercland. Until you leave it, there are only your self-evident realities staring at you in your magic mirror. When your only tool is ridicule, expect ridicule in return. You invented the game. I am, however, aware that life is more complicated than sound bites. What's really happening, what's really at issue, interests me far, far more than anyone's party line rhetoric. I know what purpose that serves. To remain successful, I use reality.

Mercnbeth -> RE: How Tax Hikes on Businesses Don't Work - The New York State Model (11/16/2009 11:07:46 AM)
quote: these days, I teach others Can I use you and your lack of response to challenge as a picture next to the truism - "Those that can't do - teach."? quote: Markets are markets. Change with them. Or as many are doing in NY State and US in general - LEAVE them is a very good option too. quote: that you didn't want to actually discuss New York's situation. This is the NY situation; $8 Billion of new taxes passed - $1 Billion more to come. Discuss... quote: never considering the issues are bigger than your narrow conception. I never was on a debate team, couldn't make weight, however, I thought that is the responsibility of the person who takes the other side? Should I have taken the response concerning what I did for a living or my ownership as a request to disclose exactly why a company I may own in NY would relocate versus taking on new tax and regulatory scrutiny? Well - hell, that's not how I interpreted your response. quote: When your only tool is ridicule, expect ridicule in return. You invented the game Shouldn't, based on your lack of response and insult be my post? No - That would only happen if I gave you credibility which you haven't established through direct response.

Musicmystery -> RE: How Tax Hikes on Businesses Don't Work - The New York State Model (11/16/2009 11:10:08 AM)
There's the taxes. Fine. You HAVE nothing to discuss, O Great Merc. It's a statement. It's ALWAYS just that with you. Statement made. Those interested in discussion will take that and move on. You will remain in Mercland--untll the next rant. Enjoy.

Mercnbeth -> RE: How Tax Hikes on Businesses Don't Work - The New York State Model (11/16/2009 11:14:11 AM)
quote: There's the taxes. Fine. There the disconnect. "There's the taxes" is NOT fine! Especially when it has had such a detrimental impact on business that the expected revenue from those taxes didn't meet the goal and a $1 Billion of new taxes have to raised. quote: You will remain in Mercland--untll the next rant. Enjoy. I AM enjoying it immensely! Reality is a happy place! It's only a "rant" because it bothers you that you don't have a response other than "Taxes - fine!" WOW!!!!

mnottertail -> RE: How Tax Hikes on Businesses Don't Work - The New York State Model (11/16/2009 11:19:28 AM)
well, what I don't get is the mob being into everything out that way, the businesses just passed on those costs and detriments to the larger society out there, why not taxes? Business passes on tax as a cost everywhere else, and as I alluded to before, there are still alotta big corporations out there in NY. I don't see any wholesale stampede from the taxes issue anywhere in the US, one here one there, sure.......but why is there any business in New York, why aren't they based in Live Free or Die? Meh, not that I give a fuck about New York so much. It was a good time when I lived there though. Nothing I couldn't live without obviously. Ron

Mercnbeth -> RE: How Tax Hikes on Businesses Don't Work - The New York State Model (11/16/2009 11:33:13 AM)
quote: why is there any business in New York, why aren't they based in Live Free or Die? When I worked there, many of the people in my building were there because of image and exposure. Everyone knew it was a difficult place to work and run a business, but you had to. There was London, Hong Kong, Tokyo; if you were a multi-national 'player' you had to have offices, and/or a headquarters there. Jersey City was built up during the last migration. Across the river, at the time a couple dollar PATH ride to the WTC, and you saved about 20% from the effective tax/regulation rate. The same raising tax lowering revenue is occurring in CA. Again, many companies, low visibility and no 'name brands', have moved out of State. Small businesses, the core business identified by all economic experts, which will be the source of any recovery. I think the last name brand doing so which did raise a few eyebrows in Sacramento, was Hewlett Packard. They decided to expand and build a new plant but for the first time they decided to do so outside their CA footprint and are building a plant in Oregon; taxes and regulations were given as the reasoning. You don't see a "wholesale stampede" because pragmatically who's left in the US manufacturing and producing versus servicing?

willbeurdaddy -> RE: How Tax Hikes on Businesses Don't Work - The New York State Model (11/16/2009 12:53:13 PM)
Whether or not tax increases can be passed on to customers depends on how close to maximum prices the product is already priced at and the elasticity of demand. A price increase to cover tax increases might lower revenues more than the taxes themselves. Its the mirror image of the Laffer Curve problem.

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