quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal


How does a submissive remain competently responsible for herself and yet submit absolutely to the will of another? I think this is a categorical impossibility, and that if you try to do both at the same time, one goal will certainly suffer or that you will become very pressured from the stress of trying to maintain such a contradiction.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

He manipulates me all of the time. It's what I signed up for. I'm not one of those people who over process things. I generally go by the rule of "if it feels right, then it is right". I also go through life knowing that I am ultimately responsible for myself even if that boils down to placing those responsibilities in the hands of another. I am not so insecure that if he started making shit decisions for me that I wouldn't call him on it and leave the relationship. I'm also mature enough to not then place all of the problems on his head. Even as his property, I am still 50% of this relationship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

But on the other hand my goal out of the relationship is personal satisfaction. I've seen other posters on here post that their goal in the relationship is "to be pleasing" or "to submit fully to the will of my Dominant" and for those types of people I would imagine it's a lot harder to say no. And I can see how they would feel manipulated if they do things they didn't want to do, and they do everything they're asked, and then the Dominant says "no sorry not good enough" or worse "well that was fun, bye."

quote:

Another point I wonder about is why does anyone, dom or sub or vanilla, care what an ex says or thinks about them after it is over even if it's extreme demonization, even if others agree with him or her?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

How does a submissive remain competently responsible for herself and yet submit absolutely to the will of another?

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

~FR to no one in particular~

I'm not sure I'm understanding the way "manipulate" is being used through this thread. I live in a TPE relationship and I guess one could say that part of mastering me is in fact manipulating me to behave and respond to my Master the way I do. I suppose I do it with students I teach too when I want good behavior in a classroom... things like the way the class is arranged, things I do to encourage and reward good behavior, tricks for gaining the attention of the class. But somewhere there is a line. I'm not using these methods to get students to do things like give me their lunch money... I'm doing things that help the whole class have a better atmosphere for learning and things that will ultimately prepare students for behavior that will be expected of them in the big world out there. Perhaps manipulation is too fluid a word as it can encompass so much. Where does abuse begin? What about wives that stay in abusive relationships. Are they really consenting to being abused? You might argue they are; but for some it is too hard to leave, or they don't believe they are being abused until it escalates beyond a certain point. It is hard to see a pattern until the pattern has repeated enough times. Speaking for myself, I tend to be a very forgiving soul. Even after an abusive relationship ended, I would still rationalize and defend the persons actions for a long time. It drove my Master nuts! Not all submissives leave relationships like that and immediately start pointing the finger and blaming. For some of us, we continue to make excuses for their behavior and it actually takes us quite a while to come to terms with it and be able to call a spade a spade.

And it is not always clear at all what is going on, and yes one can be kept deliberately in the dark about certain things. I was lied to about age and orientation. I was lied to by omission regarding another relationship. I was misled about future living plans. I was led to believe we were heading toward marriage and children. I was repeatedly offered a collar if I did X and then not given it when I did X... never outright in such a way as I could definitively say he wasn't holding to his end, but I was always left thinking he was going to soon, so I would be waiting and if I asked was told it was coming. It never did. The final straw was having confirmed my suspicions about some desires of his that were illegal (and I'm not talking BDSM illegal, but serious felony illegal) I could go on and on with examples, but truthfully it wears me out to think about it. But the point is, that because I wasn't getting answers and because I was getting lied to, I didn't know where I was at, and didn't know where I was going.. so yes abusive manipulation becomes very possible.

Having said all that, it can also happen to dominants, not only submissives. I know a very good Master who takes infinite care of his property and her well being who had a former slave/wife accuse him of abuse simply because she wanted a bargaining chip in the divorce. I also know of a dominant whose slaves stole all his money. Trust goes both ways, and so apparently does abuse.

Well wishes,
anna

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

~~FR~~
i guess my husband could say i wasn't completely honest with him cause i didn't reveal all my needs, wants, likes, dislikes back in 1981 when we stated dating, and later that year married.... but gee whiz..... i'm not even the same PERSON i was 26 years ago...... How do i tell you, what i don't know yet myself?

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

I suppose I do it with students I teach too when I want good behavior in a classroom... things like the way the class is arranged, things I do to encourage and reward good behavior, tricks for gaining the attention of the class. But somewhere there is a line. I'm not using these methods to get students to do things like give me their lunch money... I'm doing things that help the whole class have a better atmosphere for learning and things that will ultimately prepare students for behavior that will be expected of them in the big world out there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

Where does abuse begin?

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

What about wives that stay in abusive relationships. Are they really consenting to being abused? You might argue they are; but for some it is too hard to leave, or they don't believe they are being abused until it escalates beyond a certain point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

It is hard to see a pattern until the pattern has repeated enough times. Speaking for myself, I tend to be a very forgiving soul. Even after an abusive relationship ended, I would still rationalize and defend the persons actions for a long time. It drove my Master nuts! Not all submissives leave relationships like that and immediately start pointing the finger and blaming. For some of us, we continue to make excuses for their behavior and it actually takes us quite a while to come to terms with it and be able to call a spade a spade.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

And it is not always clear at all what is going on, and yes one can be kept deliberately in the dark about certain things. I was lied to about age and orientation. I was lied to by omission regarding another relationship. I was misled about future living plans. I was led to believe we were heading toward marriage and children. I was repeatedly offered a collar if I did X and then not given it when I did X... never outright in such a way as I could definitively say he wasn't holding to his end, but I was always left thinking he was going to soon, so I would be waiting and if I asked was told it was coming. It never did. The final straw was having confirmed my suspicions about some desires of his that were illegal (and I'm not talking BDSM illegal, but serious felony illegal) I could go on and on with examples, but truthfully it wears me out to think about it. But the point is, that because I wasn't getting answers and because I was getting lied to, I didn't know where I was at, and didn't know where I was going.. so yes abusive manipulation becomes very possible.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

Having said all that, it can also happen to dominants, not only submissives. I know a very good Master who takes infinite care of his property and her well being who had a former slave/wife accuse him of abuse simply because she wanted a bargaining chip in the divorce. I also know of a dominant whose slaves stole all his money. Trust goes both ways, and so apparently does abuse.

quote:

You haven't noticed any tendency among folks here or people you know or know about to claim MA about their former partners (particularly those who were submissive and even moreso if new to it)?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

But on the other hand my goal out of the relationship is personal satisfaction.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I've seen other posters on here post that their goal in the relationship is "to be pleasing" or "to submit fully to the will of my Dominant" and for those types of people I would imagine it's a lot harder to say no. And I can see how they would feel manipulated if they do things they didn't want to do, and they do everything they're asked, and then the Dominant says "no sorry not good enough" or worse "well that was fun, bye."

quote:


That's because it is presumed, by their attendance, that they are consenting to this exchange.

quote:


Unless there is the threat of non-consensual physical violence or the fear of death or near-death, there is no "spade" to call them. The other partner essentially becomes irrelevant. the st-ype would have chosen to stay in a situation willingly.

quote:



ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

Where does abuse begin?


Where a non-consensual act is thrust upon someone who, at the moment of being subjected to it, fully and genuinely does not wish it.

quote:

Again, I am intentionally differentiating MA from instances of lying. The situation above is different than what I am addressing.

quote:

MA deals with instances where the person had things done that they did consent to, but decided to change their mind about once the relationship was over.

quote:

ORIGINAL: master4bornslv

I have to ask who told you that as a sub or slave that you will be responcible for actions done at your Masters or Mistress orders, or the things He/SHE manipulates you to do for him or her?
When a Master or Mistress controls a slave or a sub HE the Master or SHE the Mistress is, or at least should be responcible for any outside consequences of you doing as HE or SHE commands, just as HE or SHE will reap any pleasures or benefits of said control or manipulations He commands of you

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

But on the other hand my goal out of the relationship is personal satisfaction.

That's the goal of anyone in a relationship. What should ideally be the case is that submissives and slaves just happen to derive the greatest personal satisfaction from being in a role of servitude and submission. That's the "know thyself" part of all of this. And, if they're confused about whether submission is what will actually bring them personal satisfaction and find out that it isn't afterwards, it's their responsibility for what they gambled.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I've seen other posters on here post that their goal in the relationship is "to be pleasing" or "to submit fully to the will of my Dominant" and for those types of people I would imagine it's a lot harder to say no. And I can see how they would feel manipulated if they do things they didn't want to do, and they do everything they're asked, and then the Dominant says "no sorry not good enough" or worse "well that was fun, bye."

Were they lied to about where the relationship was going or how long they'd be kept and under what circumstances? (And I don't mean the mutual expectation that everyone feels about wishing for permanence when a new relationship starts off well.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamerdreaming

I mean I love ya, Geddy Lee

quote:

Another point I wonder about is why does anyone, dom or sub or vanilla, care what an ex says or thinks about them after it is over even if it's extreme demonization, even if others agree with him or her?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero


I am proposing (based on the concern over M.A.) that, as a dominant, the general assumption you should adopt (particularly in the case of newer s-types) is that they cannot consent and/or cannot understand what it is they are consenting to. It's your responsibility, as the dominant, not to just take an s-type's assurance of ability to consent at face value, but you must also scrutinize and analyze whether that admission is true or false as well as whether it will be true or false in the future.