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IF - You are a Mayun... - 11/18/2009 11:17:53 AM   
sunshinemiss


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Hello Everybody!
We've often talked about a Master being a Man, and I remembered this poem by Rudyard Kipling.  What do you think about this?  Any of it ring true for you?  Any particular thoughts about it?
 
Best,
sunshine
 
If
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!

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RE: IF - You are a Mayun... - 11/18/2009 11:27:18 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


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Roses are red
Violets are blue,
Spankin' yer ass
Be fun for me and you!


Giggles aside... the thing that makes one a "Man" or "Woman" is... <drum roll>.... ACCOUNTABILITY.



< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 11/18/2009 11:30:28 AM >


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RE: IF - You are a Mayun... - 11/18/2009 11:29:21 AM   
breatheasone


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Thats a lovely poem sunshine, thank you for posting it.

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RE: IF - You are a Mayun... - 11/18/2009 11:33:38 AM   
sunshinemiss


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I just think it is an amazingly good portrait of what it is to be an adult...

Keeping your head in a crisis, choose your own integrity even when people are lying to you, rebuild when your life's work is destroyed, etc.  are actually lessons to learn.  Things to teach our children. 

It's something to be taken apart, line for line... and considered.  I like this poem because of the trees (the lines) and the forest (the overall lesson).



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Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

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RE: IF - You are a Mayun... - 11/18/2009 11:45:39 AM   
breatheasone


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i have always liked this qute from President Lincoln, "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." Abraham Lincoln


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Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Mike posts in black font
candy posts in pink font

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RE: IF - You are a Mayun... - 11/18/2009 11:51:07 AM   
EbonyWood


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Was written about Leander Starr Jameson, leading a failed overthrow plot prior to the Boer War.

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RE: IF - You are a Mayun... - 11/18/2009 1:16:19 PM   
BrokenSaint


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That poem is pretty awesome. Thanks for sharing it

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In the name of progress,
In the name of madness
Drum beats faster
Crowd shouts louder
and chaos replaces order
VnV Nation - Nemesis

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RE: IF - You are a Mayun... - 11/18/2009 3:03:08 PM   
kasumi


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Great Poem - I know very few (if any!) that live up to it completely. 

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RE: IF - You are a Mayun... - 11/18/2009 3:56:25 PM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
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I adore Kipling.

However the expectations represented therein are crushing to anyone with any emotional sensitivity. Admittedly in his era, most upper class British males had none once they had finished six years of public (boarding) school complete with heavy CP, humiliation and frequent sexual abuse.

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RE: IF - You are a Mayun... - 11/18/2009 10:41:57 PM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Hello Everybody!
We've often talked about a Master being a Man, and I remembered this poem by Rudyard Kipling.  What do you think about this?  Any of it ring true for you?  Any particular thoughts about it?
 
Best,
sunshine
 
If
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!



Greetings sunshinemiss:

IMO the poetry symbolizes goals, dreams, aspirations and that which is characteristically hoped for even in the midst of utter despair or abounding in the heights of any calm of even the most fiercest storm of the soul.

When the foundation of what was thought of as formed and representative of a sort of security is found to be capable of crumbling right before ones eyes by the callous actions of others who were least expected to assail and inflame is when the true measures of manhood emerge.

Lest one need not forget that while others say all kind of rude and malicious lies about ones character, which was thought to not ever be required to deal with an onslaught of opposition that arrives seemingly to war against cherished character traits and that are seen to be personally valued and treasured is indeed reflective of the deeper things that Rudyard Kipling has etched out with his poetic waves of words.

A man might be well assured that there will be scorching trials and tribulations while living life daily if the measure of a man is looked at through his self made lenses of immaturity. Thus his course on his path will be experienced as rugged with no real solutions and rarely leading to any genuine measures of manhood if he continually rejects what sharpens the soul of man amidst even his fiercest storm.

In the nutshell, If indeed. I agree.

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RE: IF - You are a Mayun... - 11/18/2009 10:55:22 PM   
EbonyWood


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Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline
The poem is not really about dreams and aspirations at all. In fact, mostly the opposite.
 
There is one line about dreams, but stating NOT to make dreams your master.
 
It is much more about being realistic, not losing common touch, remaining grounded. Accepting failure. It was written about a man who had just failed miserably and was imprisoned for it.

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RE: IF - You are a Mayun... - 11/18/2009 11:41:02 PM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyWood

The poem is not really about dreams and aspirations at all. In fact, mostly the opposite.
 
There is one line about dreams, but stating NOT to make dreams your master.
 
It is much more about being realistic, not losing common touch, remaining grounded. Accepting failure. It was written about a man who had just failed miserably and was imprisoned for it.



To dream does not necessarily lend itself to mastering the dreamer. Independent autonomy lived in a sovereign way is a sentry that surrounds the doorway of determination. IMO

If one does not have dreams, goals, aspirations etc. there ceases to be life lived in a manner which is filled with that which inspires the way to forge the path regardless of its challenges.

Symbolizing dreams, goals and aspirations is derived in the heart and soul of each man as he deems so. Differences of perspective are inevitable.

Nonetheless, IF indeed says it all.


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RE: IF - You are a Mayun... - 11/28/2009 2:41:38 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I adore Kipling.

However the expectations represented therein are crushing to anyone with any emotional sensitivity. Admittedly in his era, most upper class British males had none once they had finished six years of public (boarding) school complete with heavy CP, humiliation and frequent sexual abuse.


Am weeping with laughter - Absolutely spot on.

It's a lovely poem - it's all about "Strength" and "Victorian Values" - many of which are as worthwhile today as they were then, but I agree with DesFIP - emotional sensitivity didn't appear high (or anywhere) on the list of admirable values in Victorian (Imperial) England

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RE: IF - You are a Mayun... - 11/29/2009 3:17:50 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
I didn't know we had a lot of Mayans here.

Oh, MayUn. Never mind.

Good poem, always enjoyed it, but I would not hold it, or possibly any other single writing, as THE way to be a man.


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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: IF - You are a Mayun... - 11/29/2009 4:37:05 AM   
lally2


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Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline
hey sunshinemiss xx

ive always loved that poem - what i like most, oddly enough is its rythem - steady and reassuring somehow.

in the end i think its good advice for everyone, male or female. but i suppose at the time of writing it, women were supposed to be, sweet, submissive and innocent -

those were the days eh??

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