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RE: Sarah Palin, Creationist? - 11/19/2009 11:01:23 PM   
breatheasone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

As for anything he might have to say in the video, he starts off by saying this:

I believe the Bible is the infallible, inspired, inerrant word of the living God.


So if someone started off by saying that they do NOT "Believe" that the bible is the infallible, inspired, inerrant word of the living God, Then that would make them more credible? I don't understand your logic here.


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RE: Sarah Palin, Creationist? - 11/19/2009 11:25:18 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

As for anything he might have to say in the video, he starts off by saying this:

I believe the Bible is the infallible, inspired, inerrant word of the living God.


So if someone started off by saying that they do NOT "Believe" that the bible is the infallible, inspired, inerrant word of the living God, Then that would make them more credible? I don't understand your logic here.


Well I edited that part out, because I decided not to open up territory beyond what I was responding to. But since you caught it, no, I don't think that the reverse necessarily makes someone "credible". But neither have they said anything yet to make me think that their conclusions will not be credible. On the other hand, however, when someone starts from the position that the Bible is the infallible and inerrant word of the living God, I know that I'm not going to consider their conclusions to be credible because I don't consider that premise to be credible. Garbage in, garbage out.

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/19/2009 11:47:24 PM >

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RE: Sarah Palin, Creationist? - 11/20/2009 5:23:37 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		The circumstances under which the Bible was compiled are pretty well documented, and the historians don't mention God writing, or even dictating, any of it? Perhaps one of the scribes was getting on and had a long white beard, which caused this confusion?

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RE: Sarah Palin, Creationist? - 11/20/2009 5:32:21 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
On the other hand, however, when someone starts from the position that the Bible is the infallible and inerrant word of the living God, I know that I'm not going to consider their conclusions to be credible because I don't consider that premise to be credible. Garbage in, garbage out.


I've got to go with Kirata on this one. When someone describes passages about the earth having four corners and sitting immovable upon a pillar or that unicorns are real as infallible and inerrant, how could I possibly take them seriously?

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RE: Sarah Palin, Creationist? - 11/20/2009 7:12:59 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rockspider

Sarah Palin. I really have oposing feeling on that woman. Her political views could not be more alien to me. However her personal life, her way of being a mother and a human being i find fascinating. Specially do i admire her "shoot from the hip and fuck the consequences" attitude, which of course have put her in a lot of hot water. I also do believe she is at least an honest woman as far as her motives. That can be admired despite obvious difference in the nature of the motives. Maybe it just is refreshing to see a honest politician. A truly endangered species in our world. We just held a minor election here. To watch the assholes run from their pre election promises less than 24 hours after the election is tragic. And i voted for the prick.


How about the asshole who ran away from her job to go on a book tour, betraying the people who voted her into office.

This is what you find admirable?






< Message edited by rulemylife -- 11/20/2009 7:14:15 AM >

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RE: Sarah Palin, Creationist? - 11/20/2009 7:45:09 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

this sentence is shorter than the link would be


Ok, so the gentleman in the video believes that there had to be a Creator because life could not have occurred spontaneously.

So, wouldn't his reasoning about the necessity of a Creator logically lead to the necessity of a creator of the Creator?

And on and on.




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RE: Sarah Palin, Creationist? - 11/20/2009 10:04:46 AM   
breatheasone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

As for anything he might have to say in the video, he starts off by saying this:

I believe the Bible is the infallible, inspired, inerrant word of the living God.


So if someone started off by saying that they do NOT "Believe" that the bible is the infallible, inspired, inerrant word of the living God, Then that would make them more credible? I don't understand your logic here.


Well I edited that part out, because I decided not to open up territory beyond what I was responding to. But since you caught it, no, I don't think that the reverse necessarily makes someone "credible". But neither have they said anything yet to make me think that their conclusions will not be credible. On the other hand, however, when someone starts from the position that the Bible is the infallible and inerrant word of the living God, I know that I'm not going to consider their conclusions to be credible because I don't consider that premise to be credible. Garbage in, garbage out.

K.




Thank you for responding, imho you have a very closed minded point of view. i have learned from my own experience that can limit a person. i really do wish you well.


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RE: Sarah Palin, Creationist? - 11/20/2009 10:11:08 AM   
breatheasone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

this sentence is shorter than the link would be


Ok, so the gentleman in the video believes that there had to be a Creator because life could not have occurred spontaneously.

So, wouldn't his reasoning about the necessity of a Creator logically lead to the necessity of a creator of the Creator?

And on and on.





Thats a very good point. i personally would like to hear Ravi Zacharias response to your question.


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RE: Sarah Palin, Creationist? - 11/20/2009 10:20:38 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Several religions don't assume a creator--Hinduism, for example. In Ancient mythology, often the Gods are created by the Universe, not the other way around.

And given that time/space don't work in the linear manner we assume, surely a Supreme Being would be above it.

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RE: Sarah Palin, Creationist? - 11/20/2009 10:49:56 AM   
AnimusRex


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Status: offline 		I remember reading a discussion between different theologians; one took a nuanced view of the bible, holding that things like Genesis and the flat earth and creation were metaphorical examples of God's workings, not to be taken literally. he also held strong views about Christ's teachings about the poor.

The fundamentalist scholar scoffed at him and said- "How come when you like something it is the inerrant word of God, but when you don't you wave it all away as all metaphor and analogy?"

He had a good point. It IS easy, isn't it, to cherry-pick and pluck different truths out of a thousand or so pages of 3,000 year old texts translated several times by dozens of authors, from societies we barely understand, all written in oblique poetic style, filled with symbolism and imagery.

Consider the following, and decide which are literal truths, and which are metaphor:
We find that the Bible endorses slavery; or condemns it.
It supports war; or prohibits it;
It instructs us that divorce is permissible; or not ever allowed;
It states that the earth was created in 7 days;
It tells us that the earth is flat;
It claims that man was created out of dust;
It asserts that God made the earth stop rotating during a battle (actually, it was the sun that the Lord stopped in its revolution around the earth);
It commands us to kill nonbelievers; or love them;

It is easy to cherry-pick and choose what we want to believe, because there isn't one consistent narrative througout the Bible; it switches voice, changes tone, contradicts itself in others. Some parts are obviously metaphoric (Revelations), and others obviously literal (Acts), but most are vague enough to see as either one.

If someone wants to take every word as the literal truth, be my guest; but recognize the absurdity that most of us would see in for example, the earth stopping its movement for a few hours.
If one wants to take some as metaphor and others as literal, recognize the absurdity in picking which ones are conveniently literal, and which are mere allegory;
But most interestingly- if one wants to dismiss the entire thing as mythology then recognize the existential absurdity in asserting that life has no meaning outside of our own invention.

Bottom line for me- pick your absurdity, and run with it.

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RE: Sarah Palin, Creationist? - 11/20/2009 10:54:11 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Wouldn't it be useful if people used it for spiritual self-reflection, instead of justification and ammunition for self-righteous agendas?

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RE: Sarah Palin, Creationist? - 11/20/2009 11:18:29 AM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Wouldn't it be useful if people used it for spiritual self-reflection, instead of justification and ammunition for self-righteous agendas?


Then how would we know who to hate?

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RE: Sarah Palin, Creationist? - 11/20/2009 11:23:41 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Come on, mon ami, that's easy...

We're the Chosen Ones. We are commanded to hate the Others.


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RE: Sarah Palin, Creationist? - 11/20/2009 11:52:44 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Well I edited that part out, because I decided not to open up territory beyond what I was responding to. But since you caught it, no, I don't think that the reverse necessarily makes someone "credible". But neither have they said anything yet to make me think that their conclusions will not be credible. On the other hand, however, when someone starts from the position that the Bible is the infallible and inerrant word of the living God, I know that I'm not going to consider their conclusions to be credible because I don't consider that premise to be credible. Garbage in, garbage out.

K.




Thank you for responding, imho you have a very closed minded point of view. i have learned from my own experience that can limit a person. i really do wish you well.


You're saying that someone who finds a person who says a priori that the bible is infallible and inerrant is less than credible to be close minded? You do realize that the person claiming the bible is infallible and inerrant without any evidence is the one who is close minded? Finding someone like that less than credible is the logical position.

I see that you've dropped supporting Hovind. I hope that isn't just a tactic and you've actually realized he is a conman.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 11/20/2009 11:53:26 AM >

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RE: Sarah Palin, Creationist? - 11/20/2009 12:37:26 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You're saying that someone who finds a person who says a priori that the bible is infallible and inerrant is less than credible to be close minded? You do realize that the person claiming the bible is infallible and inerrant without any evidence is the one who is close minded? Finding someone like that less than credible is the logical position.

She's not usually accusatory like that. I think the "garbage in, garbage out" remark was ill-considered on my part, adding a sting to the post that wasn't really necessary to making my point.

K.

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RE: Sarah Palin, Creationist? - 11/20/2009 2:33:12 PM   
breatheasone


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quote:

You're saying that someone who finds a person who says a priori that the bible is infallible and inerrant is less than credible to be close minded? You do realize that the person claiming the bible is infallible and inerrant without any evidence is the one who is close minded? Finding someone like that less than credible is the logical position.

I see that you've dropped supporting Hovind. I hope that isn't just a tactic and you've actually realized he is a conman.

i'm  not sure what you are saying, and i never said i support, or don't support Mr. Hovind. When i hear someone that i find compelling, it matters not their religion. ANYone that refuses to listen to someone simply because of their religious beliefs is closed minded in my opinion. You are free to have your own opinion of people like that.


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Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
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RE: Sarah Palin, Creationist? - 11/20/2009 5:09:55 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone
ANYone that refuses to listen to someone simply because of their religious beliefs is closed minded in my opinion. You are free to have your own opinion of people like that.


There's open minded and then there's just absurd. Certainly there's grey area but at some point, such as Dinosaur Adventure Land, one has clearly reached the absurd.

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RE: Sarah Palin, Creationist? - 11/20/2009 5:17:59 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

If someone wants to take every word as the literal truth, be my guest; but recognize the absurdity that most of us would see in for example, the earth stopping its movement for a few hours.
If one wants to take some as metaphor and others as literal, recognize the absurdity in picking which ones are conveniently literal, and which are mere allegory;
But most interestingly- if one wants to dismiss the entire thing as mythology then recognize the existential absurdity in asserting that life has no meaning outside of our own invention.

Bottom line for me- pick your absurdity, and run with it.


Exactly!!

Thank you for posting exactly what i feel in better words than i could compose on my own!

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RE: Sarah Palin, Creationist? - 11/20/2009 7:15:13 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

if one wants to dismiss the entire thing as mythology then recognize the existential absurdity in asserting that life has no meaning outside of our own invention.

Help me out here? I'm confused. What do you mean by "the existential absurdity in asserting that life has no meaning outside of our own invention." That isn't existentially absurd. That is precisely the existential position. Or are you calling existentialism absurd?

K.

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RE: Sarah Palin, Creationist? - 11/20/2009 7:35:38 PM   
AnimusRex


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Status: offline 		Kirata-
I poorly phrased that-
I was saying that if you dismiss religion, one has an existential problem to solve, that of finding meaning and purpose. No matter what path of belief or nonbelief you take, there is an element of the absurd.

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