RE: Taxes (Full Version)

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willbeurdaddy -> RE: Taxes (11/19/2009 8:58:24 PM)

And given the track record of Congress, flat tax would just be another new tax, and not replace anything. As someone noted above, taxes arent the problem, its spending, especially spending on fraud, waste and subsidies. A progressive tax system is appropriate, just not as progressive as the self- named "progressives" want to see it.




AnimusRex -> RE: Taxes (11/19/2009 9:07:18 PM)

Here is a handy guide, when speaking of historical tax rates:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html

this is a summary of income tax rates from 1913 to present.

It might interest people to know that the top tax bracket today is the lowest it has been since 1916.

During the "conservative" 1950's under Republican Dwight Eisenhower the top tax bracket for rich people was 91%.

Yes.

91%


So yes, lets talk about how much lower taxes should get.

Should they go down to the level they were when you would button up your spats and go to see the "horseless carriage" race along rutted cobblestone streets?





NeedToUseYou -> RE: Taxes (11/19/2009 9:16:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

The minimum wage argument has been played out in a wide variety of nations, it works....tried and tested and effective....scrapping it just means wages for all unskilled jobs fall to the absolute minimum of food or welfare....in your example, no welfare....so just food.
Student grants are just a subset of public education in general, which is obvious...
The grants and subsidies thing, there are perhaps bad ones given, but to eliminate all is foolish, there are many situations where they are helpful....the classic example being an industry that will bring in far more in tax income than the subsidy it needs to tip the balance to keep going.


LOL, China has bought us using the money from those less than minimum wage jobs. Obviously, it works, maybe not in a month, or year, but unless everyone applies the same standards, it tends to shift the wealth slowly but surely away. We don't have a minimum wage really anyway, how many illegals, and under the table jobs are there? millions, it just feels good more than anything to think we do, the only problem is we collect very little taxes on those wages.

Actually, LOL, I know a dude, right now working for less under the table, while receiving disability checks. I know that doesn't count as conclusive "evidence", but we have millions working for less than minimum wage already, it doesn't really seem effective.

As far as grants go, grant=theft.




Brain -> RE: Taxes (11/19/2009 9:29:44 PM)

Start here.
More than $98 billion in taxpayer dollars spent by government agencies was wasted

More than 98 billion in taxpayer dollars spent by government agencies was wasted, much of it on questionable claims for tax credits and Medicare benefits, representing an increase of 26 billion from the previous year.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091118/ap_on_bi_ge/us_government_waste

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I have been doing some thinking on taxes recently. More specifically, reducing taxes. Im seeing more and more from those with a libertarian view saying how we need to make government lean, answerable to the people, ect.

So, tell me... where do we start?

What taxes need to go?

Which ones need to stay?

What do they pay for?





Mercnbeth -> RE: Taxes (11/19/2009 9:56:45 PM)

quote:

During the "conservative" 1950's under Republican Dwight Eisenhower the top tax bracket for rich people was 91%.
Yes.
91%

Amazing how often one aspect of a condition that existed neadly 60 years ago taken out of context is used for an argument for the sake of agenda.

the tax rates of the 1950's didn't necessarily reduce CEO consumption; it just reduced their reported taxable income. The high income tax rates in the 1950's were paired with a corporate tax system that allowed companies much more generous deductions for things like business lunches, business-travel-with-spouse, and so forth. Right now you pay Rick Wagoner a squillion dollars, and he entertains important people on his own dime; in 1955, you paid him less, but he expensed all his entertaining to the company. Descriptions of 1960's expense account procedures for even entry-level management are enough to make this journalist rather faint with envy.

I go for the 91% 1950 taxes and getting the same loopholes and deduction be able to commute to Italy on a weekly basis.




AnimusRex -> RE: Taxes (11/19/2009 10:36:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

During the "conservative" 1950's under Republican Dwight Eisenhower the top tax bracket for rich people was 91%.
Yes.
91%

Amazing how often one aspect of a condition that existed neadly 60 years ago taken out of context is used for an argument for the sake of agenda.


Actually, you are right. Its not that anyone really paid 91%; there were a lot of loopholes that shielded income. The biggest change is that in addition to federal income taxes, we now have state income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, permit fees, and so on.
So our overall government burden is quite a bit more than it used to be. And I agree, it should be less.

However, what is often missed in all this is what I have referred to before; in 1913, America was in many respects a rude, undeveloped, 3rd World nation; Our military was ranked something like 30th in the world, behind nations like Albania and Italy. I don't think we had more than a couple military bases anywhere outside the continental US. Today we ask our government to do more, spend more, and still don't pay for all the services we get.

Even with the huge tax burden we have, our federal government (and most state governments) run a deficit. So it raises a good question; do we have a taxing problem, or a spending problem?




pahunkboy -> RE: Taxes (11/19/2009 11:10:14 PM)

Taxes go to the IRS which is an IMF agency.   Such tax goes to pay the interest that we pay to the private federal reserve.  The federal reserve is a group of 12-13 private banks most of which are offshore.


The federal reserve creates money out of thin air- this power is reserved for the federal government.

Ponder this.  Why were there no property taxes the first 100 years of the country?




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Taxes (11/20/2009 10:32:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

.   Such tax goes to pay the interest that we pay to the private federal reserve. 


Ponder this.  Why were there no property taxes the first 100 years of the country?



On the first point, HUH?

On the second point, wrong. There have been property taxes since colonial days.




AnimusRex -> RE: Taxes (11/20/2009 11:25:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
Ponder this.  Why were there no property taxes the first 100 years of the country?


For the same reason there were no public schools.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Taxes (11/20/2009 11:42:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
Ponder this.  Why were there no property taxes the first 100 years of the country?


For the same reason there were no public schools.


How can a blatantly incorrect statement be followed by "for the same reason"?

answer: Easily, when the response is also incorrect. There have been public schools in the US since 1635.




tazzygirl -> RE: Taxes (11/20/2009 5:32:58 PM)

More than 150 years have passed since Horace Mann helped Massachusetts establish a statewide system of education that eventually led to the requirement that all children attend public school. In 1852, Massachusetts became the first state to pass compulsory school attendance laws, and by 1918, all states required children to receive an education.

When they made education compulsory...

http://www.ncsl.org/IssuesResearch/Education/CompulsoryEducationOverview/tabid/12943/Default.aspx

First Public school....

It was started by Rev. John Cotton who wanted to create a school modeled after the Free Grammar School in Boston, England, in which Latin and Greek were taught. The school was publicly funded and the first classes were held in the home of Philemon Pormort, the school's master.

http://www.infoplease.com/askeds/oldest-school-america.html

Btw, He was a Puritan [:D]




AnimusRex -> RE: Taxes (11/20/2009 5:47:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
It was started by Rev. John Cotton who wanted to create a school modeled after the Free Grammar School in Boston, England, in which Latin and Greek were taught. The school was publicly funded and the first classes were held in the home of Philemon Pormort, the school's master.
Btw, He was a Puritan [:D]


Mandatory, government funded and run education....another far-left Marxist scheme.




tazzygirl -> RE: Taxes (11/20/2009 5:53:18 PM)

Pst.. Master... 56 signers of the Constitution were taught in that school... but dont tell anyone... you know how religion is a taboo here. [:D]




Acer49 -> RE: Taxes (11/20/2009 5:56:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I have been doing some thinking on taxes recently. More specifically, reducing taxes. Im seeing more and more from those with a libertarian view saying how we need to make government lean, answerable to the people, ect.

So, tell me... where do we start?

What taxes need to go?

Which ones need to stay?

What do they pay for?


I think we need to look at where the money is going, then worry about taxes




tazzygirl -> RE: Taxes (11/20/2009 6:03:03 PM)

Anyone given any thought to an audit of the federal government?




AnimusRex -> RE: Taxes (11/20/2009 6:18:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Anyone given any thought to an audit of the federal government?


Well, here is some information that we can work with: ( I May have posted this elsewhere)

I have based all the figures in this entry on the federal budget shown on the WallStats “Death and taxes chart-
http://www.wallstats.com/deathandtaxes

First, the basic facts:
The total income for the fiscal year 2010 federal government is $2.333 Trillion. The total spending is $3.591 Trillion. The budget deficit then, stands at 1.405T, or more than a third of the total budget.
Of the $3.591 Trillion, 1.421 Trillion is discretionary, able to be cut. The remaining $2.17 Trillion goes for Social Security, Medicare/ Medicaid, interest on the debt, and so forth. The biggest portion of this is Social Security/ Medicare/ Medicaid accounting for about $1.3 Trillion of the $2.17 Trillion.
The federal discretionary budget for FY 2010 is $1.421 Trillion; It is broken down into military spending $901 Billion (62%) and non-military $520 Billion (38%).

Now for some conclusions:
Any discussion about fiscal conservatism must begin with a desire to balance the budget, to erase the yawning chasm between income and outlay. As long as budget deficits are considered acceptable, they will only grow larger, until the day of reckoning.
There are really only three alternatives- the budget gap can be erased by higher taxes, lower spending, or a combination of the two. I am not including ideas such as a rise in tax receipts, or sudden drop in Medicare spending, since those are highly unlikely. A sudden expansion of the economy will produce higher tax revenue; but it jis just as likely that a recession could follow, wiping out whatever gains the boom produced. It is wiser, more prudent, and more conservative to budget according to the facts on the ground, not on a fortunate turn of events.

So lets suppose we try the first notion- raising taxes. Is it possible to wring another $1,405,000,000.00 out of the economy? Even if the political will were there, I doubt it would be feasible- A surge of taxes on that order would act as a drag on the economy, and could actually backfire and produce another recession.
So lets turn to spending cuts. Where would we cut $1,405,000,000.00 from the federal budget? How do we cut 1/3 of federal spending?

First, the budget deficit can’t be erased simply through discretionary spending- The entire discretionary budget (including Defense) accounts for less than the deficit.
It is also clear that cutting non-discretionary spending means cutting Medicare/ Medicaid, since they account for more than half of non-discretionary budget.

So any spending cuts will have to involve discretionary spending. And there can’t be any discussion of spending cuts without looking at the military budget because it consumes 63% of the discretionary budget
Or to put it another way, fixating on the pennies we spend on the NEA, National Park Service, and bridges to nowhere is absurd, compared to where the money really is, which is Defense, Medicaid/ Medicare.

So this explains one thing- it explains why no political party or movement or individual has been able to reconcile budget income and outlay since Eisenhower. The three biggest expenses of the federal government are also the three most popular, and the most resistant to cuts. Even if, by some miracle, all spending other than Defense, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid were to be eliminated- zeroed out, cut entirely- the government would still spend about $2.3 Trillion, compared to the $2.333 Trillion of income.

So instead of asking where to cut taxes- maybe we should talk about where to cut spending, and where to increase taxes?




tazzygirl -> RE: Taxes (11/20/2009 7:29:31 PM)

maybe we should talk about where to cut spending, and where to increase taxes?

Thats why i started this thread. Lets discuss this then. People have talked about flat taxes.

3,020,462,396,000... the total income for 2005 for all the households in the US in 2006. Just a figure to work with per this source.

Of course, this doesnt take into consideration corporate income. Based upon that figure, even a 10% flat tax would not balance our budget, and that would include even taxing those beneath the federal poverty level.

So, where does that leave us? How do we increase taxes and yet deny services available now? How much savings would there be if we pulled out of Afganhistan? What other cost saving measures can be combined with tax increases to pull us out of the mess we are in?




Musicmystery -> RE: Taxes (11/20/2009 7:38:48 PM)

quote:

How much savings would there be if we pulled out of Afganhistan?

An estimated $65.4 billion for 2010

That's before a troop surge added, which could add $40 billion, and without the cost of the Iraq war.





AnimusRex -> RE: Taxes (11/20/2009 7:41:34 PM)

My suggestion is that there isn't a magic bullet; but a combination of modest tax increases (or a VAT as Bruce Bartlett has suggested), along with some cost cuts as:
1. Raising the eligibility age of Medicare/ Social Security to 70;
2. Closing some of the 1,000 military bases we maintain around the world;
3. Withdrawing from Iraq/Afghanistan ASAP- cutting the military budget.

There are plenty of other ways to close the gap; those are just what I can toss out there. The point some politician is going to have to make, is that of shared sacrifice and painful choices; anyone who starts off by saying that fiscal responsibility is "easy if only..." is a G-D fool.




tazzygirl -> RE: Taxes (11/20/2009 7:42:24 PM)

OK. A far cry from the trillion, but a start.




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