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Taxes - 11/19/2009 7:26:43 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		I have been doing some thinking on taxes recently. More specifically, reducing taxes. Im seeing more and more from those with a libertarian view saying how we need to make government lean, answerable to the people, ect.

So, tell me... where do we start?

What taxes need to go?

Which ones need to stay?

What do they pay for?

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RE: Taxes - 11/19/2009 7:39:26 PM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		From an outsiders pov, usa already has extremely low taxes. The only trillion dollar nation with lower tax take is India....problem mainly seems to be extreme inefficiencies in spending.

I'm not an expert, but I've heard a lot that usa really needs welfare reform, lotta those graphs looking like early 90s global warming predictions going round for welfare costs....

That's not a tax of course....but.....you guys have a trillion dollar deficit, shouldn't really be thinking about cutting taxes....

So I guess my answer right now is all of them need to stay, and you need them to go up. Either that, or cut your military budget in half at least....

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RE: Taxes - 11/19/2009 7:48:49 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I have been doing some thinking on taxes recently. More specifically, reducing taxes. Im seeing more and more from those with a libertarian view saying how we need to make government lean, answerable to the people, ect.

So, tell me... where do we start?

What taxes need to go?

Which ones need to stay?

What do they pay for?


Assuming you're talking on the Federal level, and for purely economic reasons:

Capital gains tax needs to go or be reduced substantially
The highest personal income tax rates need to be maintained, not increased
Social Security tax needs to be increased or the appropriate increases in full benefit retirement age need to be increased
Corporate tax rates need to be reduced substantially
Taxes on dividends need to go, or become deductible at the corporate level
Dividends received by a corporation should be 100% deductible instead of 70% (unless they become deductible to the issuing corporation)
Medicare tax needs to be maintained until the billions in savings that are claimed to be available to fund health care reform are realized
Gas tax should at least be temporarily suspended
Excise taxes on normal business operations (i.e. not punitive excise taxes) need to go
The death tax should go because its an unfair money grab via double taxation, but it isnt big enough to have much economic impact.

What do they pay for? Should be obvious and the question is just a road to an endless debate about income redistribution.

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RE: Taxes - 11/19/2009 7:48:53 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Talking about taxes is a distraction, Tazzy.   To actually address the real problem, what we need to be looking at is spending.

US government, federal, state and local jurisdictions are heading towards the same time bomb that crippled GM.  Pensions and medical benefits for retirees with an ever increasing entitlement mentality.  Mileage varies widely of course, but here in my home state of California, we have people retiring in their early 50's with pensions exceeding $100,000 a year.  I saw an obituary not long ago about a guy who lived into his 90's, who loved to brag that he spent more years retired than he had working, and every nickel of it came from the taxpayer's tit.

That seems to me like a really good place to start.  Both re-evaluating where we get our public servants, and just what they are entitled to, and cutting the levels of gov't employees altogether.


Here is an interesting piece from Jeff Jacoby with a bit more info:
http://jewishworldreview.com/jeff/jacoby110109.php3

edit to add link

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 11/19/2009 7:54:58 PM >

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RE: Taxes - 11/19/2009 7:52:46 PM   
MzMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I have been doing some thinking on taxes recently. More specifically, reducing taxes. Im seeing more and more from those with a libertarian view saying how we need to make government lean, answerable to the people, ect.

So, tell me... where do we start?

What taxes need to go?

Which ones need to stay?

What do they pay for?


What a wonderful topic, tazzy!
 
I am not sure which taxes, need to go, BUT......... federal and state income taxes do NOT need to increase!!!
In fact, I would love to see them go down, but I doubt that is happening any time soon.


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RE: Taxes - 11/19/2009 7:54:07 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
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From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I have been doing some thinking on taxes recently. More specifically, reducing taxes. Im seeing more and more from those with a libertarian view saying how we need to make government lean, answerable to the people, ect.

So, tell me... where do we start?

What taxes need to go?

Which ones need to stay?

What do they pay for?


Most taxes need to go, the only tax, would be retail sales tax, and tax on undeveloped land value, as in not based on the structures, but rather the raw value of the land. Fees could be implemented for many things.

Where to start cutting, How about cut military spending in half, that's a good start.

Next, hrmmm, maybe cut all those lifetime benefits politicians get.

Next, release all non-violent drug offenders.

Next, make prostitution legal.

Next, stop allowing people to take part in Social Security as enter workforce, and make voluntary for those under 40 to continue.

Next start wheening people off Medicare by waving in ever increasing age requirements.

Eliminate all welfare benefits for those of Age, and healthy enough to work.

Eliminate Minimum wage laws.

Eliminate Student Loans and grants.

Eliminate all corporate grants, subsidies, etc...

I could add more...

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RE: Taxes - 11/19/2009 7:59:30 PM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		Wow Need, that's a strange combination of things I strongly agree with and things I think are insane (no offense intended).

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RE: Taxes - 11/19/2009 8:03:09 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I asked the question because of some posts i have read recently and i was trying to understand the mind set behind them.

Your reading far more into this than there is.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Taxes - 11/19/2009 8:04:05 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Talking about taxes is a distraction, Tazzy.   To actually address the real problem, what we need to be looking at is spending.

US government, federal, state and local jurisdictions are heading towards the same time bomb that crippled GM.  Pensions and medical benefits for retirees with an ever increasing entitlement mentality.  Mileage varies widely of course, but here in my home state of California, we have people retiring in their early 50's with pensions exceeding $100,000 a year.  I saw an obituary not long ago about a guy who lived into his 90's, who loved to brag that he spent more years retired than he had working, and every nickel of it came from the taxpayer's tit.

That seems to me like a really good place to start.  Both re-evaluating where we get our public servants, and just what they are entitled to, and cutting the levels of gov't employees altogether.




Pensions and retiree medical benefits are forms of deferred compensation. IF total compensation including those deferrals was reasonable (and Im not saying they were..it varies from job to job and jurisdiction to jurisdiction) and if there are proper safeguards against backloading pay to artifically increase pensions, then to cry about how much they cost now is unreasonable.

However, past and current actuarial practices for public pensions are inappropriate in that they discount future obligations at balanced portfolio rates of return. While that is fine for a private pension plan where liabilities and risk are borne by the shareholders, in a public pension system they are a method of deferring the day of reckoning to future generations of taxpayers. Balanced portfolios achieve their excess returns through the assumption of risk which, in the case of public pensions, can be shown to actually be a transfer of risk to later generations. (google Jeremy Gold).

We are feeling today and will for many years to come the impact of that transfer or risk.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 11/19/2009 8:06:57 PM >

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RE: Taxes - 11/19/2009 8:05:51 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		FR

I see where you are all saying taxes could be cut. No one is talking about what services will also have to be cut. Which ones and why.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Taxes - 11/19/2009 8:06:22 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

Wow Need, that's a strange combination of things I strongly agree with and things I think are insane (no offense intended).


which is insane, they appear rational to me.

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RE: Taxes - 11/19/2009 8:08:03 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Next, release all non-violent drug offenders.

This would be number one on my list. Would this not include those selling drugs near schools?

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
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RE: Taxes - 11/19/2009 8:10:14 PM   
DCWoody


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Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		Well I'd assumed they did, it's just a matter of opinion....but the last three in particular wouldn't exactly be good for the economy...

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RE: Taxes - 11/19/2009 8:13:13 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Next, release all non-violent drug offenders.

This would be number one on my list. Would this not include those selling drugs near schools?


How near? I would say it would be okay to implement a law about drug and kids, as they are not free-willed yet in the eyes of the law or society. I'd be okay with life sentence without parole for dealing to kids. My view was more pertaining to adult to adult interaction. All my views above are for that situation unless specified.

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RE: Taxes - 11/19/2009 8:31:33 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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From: None of your business
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quote:

Eliminate Minimum wage laws.

Eliminate Student Loans and grants.

Eliminate all corporate grants, subsidies, etc...
quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

Well I'd assumed they did, it's just a matter of opinion....but the last three in particular wouldn't exactly be good for the economy...


Eliminate Minimum wage laws.
Well, if someone is willing to work for 4 dollars an hour why shouldn't they be allowed to? Made up example. Maybe I'd pay someone to sit and watch a security monitor or something and watch my warehouse at night, and let them study while going to school on job. Not much of pay or job but hey they are getting flexiblity in activities. If they agreed they made some cash and had 70% of the night to study. Whichever, I just ultimately view the negotiation for wages to be between the employer and employee.

Eliminate Student Loans and grants.
I think Loans are a function of the private sector predominantly. And grants in general are simply theft from one to another.


Eliminate all corporate grants, subsidies, etc...
Why should Corporations receive benefits not offered to non-corporations or its corporate competitors.  For every benefit you offer one business it becomes a detriment to another. It's theft, no different than me robbing a family and investing the money in what I personally think is the best company. As if politicians that determine such things are experts in the field they are subsidizing.

Example, in this little town, a theft just occured, the city gave tax breaks and subsidized loans to a new retailer. They rave in the paper this will help the economy, but it won't help one bit. As nearly everything in that store, was already available. Plus retail doesn't generally bring in outside money to the community, as a manufacturer does, but rather merely circulates it a bit more, but in this case the products were 90% plus already available in the local economy, so no net new local circulation of money will take place. They just hurt the store that has been there for 30 years two blocks down the road, and gave away valuable city resources for nothing.

Shit like that happens all the time.

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RE: Taxes - 11/19/2009 8:37:01 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou


Example, in this little town, a theft just occured, the city gave tax breaks and subsidized loans to a new retailer. They rave in the paper this will help the economy, but it won't help one bit. As nearly everything in that store, was already available. Plus retail doesn't generally bring in outside money to the community,


I note the "generally" used to caveat the statement, but there are also many instances where a larger retailer such as a WalMart/Target/Costco etc. can bring in outside money, even if what they sell was already available locally.

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RE: Taxes - 11/19/2009 8:42:59 PM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		The minimum wage argument has been played out in a wide variety of nations, it works....tried and tested and effective....scrapping it just means wages for all unskilled jobs fall to the absolute minimum of food or welfare....in your example, no welfare....so just food.
Student grants are just a subset of public education in general, which is obvious...
The grants and subsidies thing, there are perhaps bad ones given, but to eliminate all is foolish, there are many situations where they are helpful....the classic example being an industry that will bring in far more in tax income than the subsidy it needs to tip the balance to keep going.

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RE: Taxes - 11/19/2009 8:45:33 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou


Example, in this little town, a theft just occured, the city gave tax breaks and subsidized loans to a new retailer. They rave in the paper this will help the economy, but it won't help one bit. As nearly everything in that store, was already available. Plus retail doesn't generally bring in outside money to the community,


I note the "generally" used to caveat the statement, but there are also many instances where a larger retailer such as a WalMart/Target/Costco etc. can bring in outside money, even if what they sell was already available locally.


Yes, but even in that case, it comes at the expense of the surrounding feeder communities, or results in the community not running to a nearby town to buy the products, thus hurting the commerce in the town 15 miles away. On a regional level it's neutral at best, and on a national level it is neutral at best.

However, in the case that actually happened here last month, it offered nothing to the community. I walked the whole store. My bet is one or the other will be gone in 3 years.

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RE: Taxes - 11/19/2009 8:51:18 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I think Huckabee's flat consumer tax would be a great way to go. It could reduce everyone’s tax.

Remember drug pushers would pay...illegal aliens would pay...waiters and waitresses would pay…Bill gates, Warren Buffett, Jerry Jones would pay…Japanese tourists would pay.

Too simple they will say… but simple will work. Just think of how the government could streamline the IRS and save billions.

Butch


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RE: Taxes - 11/19/2009 8:55:03 PM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		Just a headsup, reducing the amount you pay on income in exchange for increases in what you pay on spending is good for the rich, but bad news for the middle and especially lower incomes. There are some savings in collecting them ofc.

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