mixed class and proud....?

mixed class and proud....? (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> mixed class and proud....? (11/23/2009 12:51:20 PM)
I was thinking the other day, (it does happen, occasionally), about how damned difficult it is, in the class ridden UK society in which I find myself, to be “mixed class” – difficulties similar I’d fancy to those faced by mixed race people, though I have only second hand testimony on that comparison. The UK today likes to think of itself as having transcended that old class system, but its still there, albeit in a variation of itself as it always traditionally was. The class system today is expressed in terms of what one does for income, the same as it ever was, except these days the income and the class is derived from the type of work one does rather than estate one might have inherited. And it’s a system which, despite a few decades of mobility from the 1950s on, is one which has hardened considerably in the last decade or so. The class youre born into in the UK today - in fact since the 1990s, is the class youre most likely to live in and die as, whether thats a professional class or the "economically inactive" - a new class established in 1981. This presents a problem for me, and I would venture for thousands of others of “mixed class” background who have been born to the unskilled and semi-skilled working class but whose work life takes place in the middle class world of the professions. We don’t belong with the middle class professionals with whom we come into contact at work, we’re looked down upon as being lesser because we don’t speak with a contorted BBC accent. We shall forever be working class fish in the middle class pond; ignorant upstarts who are unwelcome. Those from whom we sprang, the working class, regard us as being above ourselves and as part of the middle class that their bosses come from, the same bosses who treat them like shit, pay them little and drive away from their redundancy meeting in a brand new Mercedes. We shall forever be outcasts from our roots. Its time to assert our rights as mixed class Britons; not working class, or even upper working class, not middle class or even lower middle class – but mixed class, a whole new category in our class ridden society! E

Termyn8or -> RE: mixed class and proud....? (11/23/2009 1:28:44 PM)
Class is a funny thing and probably best left ignored. I am told that we are descendent from high class back in Poland, but from Jaslow. Which basically means we are high class hillbillies I guess. Further my end of the family is consideed black sheep. So where does that leave me ? I don't pay any mind to it really. Others may stand in awe of another, or consider themselves another's better but that is not for me, at least based on blood. If I am better than anyone it is strictly because of my merits. But then this brings up another aspect of the issue. Is my upbringing what made me better if I am ? Certain families have a certain way they do certain things, and to really illustrate my conception of class I would point to our beloved politicians. If you are born into a class of aristocrats and have no useful skills, they ship you off to Harvard and make you a politician. They are as unwelcome in my home as I am in their's. And people don't know the differences and similarities of race wars vs class wars. The two are very confused now. Even in my town, eastsiders and westsiders are different, and it has nothing to do with ethnicity. It is like a slightly different attitude. Some prefer the upper west side and will strive to go as far in that direction as possible, for others it is the east side. Still others like it right here in the middle. Sometime in the late twentieth century class became defined by wealth, rather than heritage. Or a combination of the two. Like the racial divide of the past is being erased, so is the monetary. We know the money is a fiat currency, we know what inflation is and we know that the advantages of wealth are disappearing. If the current trend continues, we may have a truly classless society in the future. T

Musicmystery -> RE: mixed class and proud....? (11/23/2009 3:47:33 PM)
quote: Sometime in the late twentieth century class became defined by wealth, rather than heritage. I believe you missed the 19th century somehow. Industrial revolution...a few things changed.

Hierodule -> RE: mixed class and proud....? (11/23/2009 5:27:10 PM)
I thought that if someone married someone of a higher class that they automatically became high class themselves.Why would a child born into a wealthy household who is sent to wealthy schools consider themselves mixed class, and vice versa? You either grow up rich or you grow up poor. You can't grow up both. Although, I did know a guy from Northern Ireland who considered himself mixed race because his mom was Catholic and his dad was Protestant. For us Americans that is a little mind boggling. I was like dude, you are a Brit. He explained to me how his Mom would find that description of his nationality insulting.

Musicmystery -> RE: mixed class and proud....? (11/23/2009 5:59:24 PM)
quote: I thought that if someone married someone of a higher class that they automatically became high class themselves. And yet be looked down upon. We have this in the U.S. too--"old" money vs. "new" money, for example...

Lucienne -> RE: mixed class and proud....? (11/23/2009 7:53:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hierodule I thought that if someone married someone of a higher class that they automatically became high class themselves.Why would a child born into a wealthy household who is sent to wealthy schools consider themselves mixed class, and vice versa? You either grow up rich or you grow up poor. You can't grow up both. Class is about a lot more than the size of your budget for luxuries. Thinking that you can represent the attributes of class merely by mirroring purchasing habits is a grand old fallacy. Why would a child of wealth consider themselves mixed class? I don't know, perhaps it's the large number of financially successful individuals who refuse to throw off the trappings of their class origins just because they made money. Not everyone who earns money feels the need to mimic "high" class behaviors and attitudes. In the US, at least, many of them seem to delight in projecting their lower class tastes and values through the benefit of their money.

Hierodule -> RE: mixed class and proud....? (11/23/2009 8:01:24 PM)
but if you have money and you get cancer, You get to live. You get the best treatment that money can buy. If you are poor, you die or you live in debt. Some of the things that class gets you are beyond consumption patterns, or social status. Money provides privilege and ease. A millionaire can say "My Dad and Mom were poor, I scratched my way to the top I'll always be working class." But that millionaire's kids will never have to walk to school with holes in their shoes or eat nothing but rice for dinner every night. They won't know what its like to be poor.

sophiesback -> RE: mixed class and proud....? (11/23/2009 8:04:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hierodule but if you have money and you get cancer, You get to live. You get the best treatment that money can buy. If you are poor, you die or you live in debt. i definitely do not "have money", though i'm not poor. i "got cancer" as you so eloquently put it. It has been 7 years. i get to live. i have NO debt.

Hierodule -> RE: mixed class and proud....? (11/23/2009 8:21:54 PM)
I guess I was being a little harsh to make a point. But I think class divisions are real. Poor people can have "class" they often have more "class" than rich people. But that fact is life is easier with money in this fucked up world. I am glad that you won your fight against the disease. I'm sorry if I seemed insensitive. There must be a lot of factors besides how much money you spend on treatment that decide whether or not you survive. But I think that for most people, not having to worry about money would make things a lot easier esp. people who don't have insurance.

Lucienne -> RE: mixed class and proud....? (11/23/2009 8:29:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hierodule but if you have money and you get cancer, You get to live. You get the best treatment that money can buy. If you are poor, you die or you live in debt. I've spent way too much time discussing health care reform this year to hit this softball out of the park. My arms are tired. I think all reasonable people would agree that the UK is a lot more class conscious than the US. Oddly enough, you don't need to go bankrupt to get treated for cancer in the UK. quote: Some of the things that class gets you are beyond consumption patterns, or social status. This is one of the oddities of american class consciousness. The idea that "class" is something good that one purchases or has access to due to higher income. The privileges of money are not the same thing as "upper class." And, contrary to a nation in denial, every individual in the country has a class. That's how class structures work. Everybody's got their place. Some are more respected than others.

AnimusRex -> RE: mixed class and proud....? (11/23/2009 8:30:16 PM)
Class is the great unexamined subject in America. We pride ourselves on having a classless society, but in fact we do have subtle borders that distinguish class strata. There is less social mobility than there was in earlier eras, to our detriment. The increasing privatization and downward shift of risk has only exacerbated this trend- gated communities, private schools, etc. There is a generation that has never met anyone from outside their socio-economic group. The businesses that contribute to elected officials, the elected officials, and the reporters who cover them will all come from the same colleges, private schools and probably live within blocks of each other. Small wonder that the Wall Street-Washington axis is never seriously contested by the media.

sophiesback -> RE: mixed class and proud....? (11/23/2009 8:31:56 PM)
Apology accepted. Money isn't everything. Intelligence and Integrity trump money in my book.

Hierodule -> RE: mixed class and proud....? (11/23/2009 8:41:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne quote: ORIGINAL: Hierodule but if you have money and you get cancer, You get to live. You get the best treatment that money can buy. If you are poor, you die or you live in debt. I've spent way too much time discussing health care reform this year to hit this softball out of the park. My arms are tired. I think all reasonable people would agree that the UK is a lot more class conscious than the US. Oddly enough, you don't need to go bankrupt to get treated for cancer in the UK. quote: Some of the things that class gets you are beyond consumption patterns, or social status. This is one of the oddities of american class consciousness. The idea that "class" is something good that one purchases or has access to due to higher income. The privileges of money are not the same thing as "upper class." And, contrary to a nation in denial, every individual in the country has a class. That's how class structures work. Everybody's got their place. Some are more respected than others. I think you are talking about social class and I am talking about economic class.In america upper class = money. We don't have aristocrats.

luckydawg -> RE: mixed class and proud....? (11/23/2009 8:42:09 PM)
I think there are 2 different definitons of Class being used in this thread.

Hierodule -> RE: mixed class and proud....? (11/23/2009 8:49:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg I think there are 2 different definitons of Class being used in this thread. yeah exactly

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