RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays?

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RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/w... - 11/24/2009 1:29:13 PM

Lucienne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I do hope the affected homes are not those foreclosed on such that the problem has been passed to the financiers who repossessed them. It should be utterly unacceptable if these poor souls had to pay to sort out the issues, after all they only insisted on a survey to determine inflated value, not to identify any issues, before releasing (income x whatever) funding for their purchase. It simply wouldnt be fair, and the cost may prejudice the entire financial system......

E

A tragedy indeed.

It could get interesting, because the insurers are being pressured to pay out claims even though defective building/materials are almost never covered by homeowner's insurance. So the insurance companies cancel the policy. In order to get new insurance (as required by the terms of the mortgage) the homeowner either has to replace and repair the drywall, or not disclose it to his new insurer. The former is expensive. The latter will keep a policy online that keeps the mortgage holder happy, but is basically throwing premiums down the toilet since the failure to disclose the drywall could be a material breach that defeats coverage.

So, some way or another, many homeowners breach on the mortgage due to a lapse in insurance. Great, more excess housing stock in the foreclosure market. In an epic battle between the property insurance industry (who are actually following the rules of their industry and their contracts) and financiers (aka soulless rapists of the public fisc) still trying to eek money out of the housing bubble collapse, who wins?

Wonders never cease. Insurance executives as the good guys.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 21

RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/w... - 11/24/2009 1:54:45 PM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
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Actually, for all the flap the insurers might get into, somewhere along the line they will have to pay out and subrogate, whether they must seek recompense from financiers, surveyors, developers, importers or whoever. The real tangle is in who is underwriting at each place in the chain - it might well turn out to be interesting if the chain is joined at one or more places.

I see this as a simple case comparable to the supply of faulty or dangerous consumer goods. All along the line of the acquisition by mortgage of each property, professionals were under a duty to use their expertise and skill to ensure that a safe and suitable product, in this case a house, was supplied to a consumer, the homeowner. The homeowner should not be expected to know what is safe and what is unsafe when it comes to materials used in the construction - this is the professional duty of the professionals involved, each of whom one presumes, took a good fee for their services in each case.

Presumably, the import of the affected materials was sanctioned by the appropriate US regulator too, and the materials were inspected and passed for import and use within the US. If the regulator(s) have failed in their duties then they ought to be party to any settlement. If importers and users have breached regulations on import and use, then a further cause for action is revealed.

Its an interesting mess without knowing the ins and outs; hopefully someone - not homeowners - will be obliged to resolve it.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Lucienne)

Post #: 22

RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/w... - 11/24/2009 2:07:55 PM

willbeurdaddy

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Joined: 4/8/2006
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FR

It is unlikely that a builder's insurers will be stuck with the tab. There are broad exclusions in P&C contracts for a builders use of defective materials, and also broad pollution exclusions. Arguably the sulfur is a pollutant. It will be the builder's suits against the manufacturers, and failing that they will have to cover it themselves. If that drives them out of business then the homeowner would be stuck, because homeowners insurance wont cover it.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 23

RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/w... - 11/24/2009 2:21:55 PM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
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Yep, thats going to be a potential problem alright - everyone involved suddenly becoming not worth suing or not possible to sue.

What of the regulators in all this?

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 24

RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/w... - 11/24/2009 2:27:22 PM

Lucienne

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Joined: 9/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

What of the regulators in all this?

E

Immune.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 25

RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/w... - 11/24/2009 2:31:27 PM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
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From: Stourport-England
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Sorry Lucienne, I didnt phrase it well!

What I meant was, are there regulators, what do they regulate and how in this case?

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Lucienne)

Post #: 26

RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/w... - 11/24/2009 2:33:52 PM

willbeurdaddy

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Imports of drywall were basically unregulated.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 27

RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/w... - 11/24/2009 2:40:45 PM

Lucienne

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Joined: 9/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

What I meant was, are there regulators, what do they regulate and how in this case?

Google is not giving me easy answers to these questions. The Consumer Products Safety Commission, as well as the EPA and the CDC seem to be on the case now. But there's no indication that the material was inspected at customs. I imagine with all the trade agreements we have that there are certain warranties of safety that need to be made before allowing the product into the country. I think that puts Homeland Security as the first point of control. As to how frequently those warranties are subjected to any testing? Who knows. I get the impression that our harbors are a mess and the security officials are more concerned with weapons, explosives, and drugs than they are with consumer safety.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 28

RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/w... - 11/24/2009 2:43:15 PM

Moonhead

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Joined: 9/21/2009
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Do the EPA have any real powers to do anything about a situation like this, though? I thought they were mostly just there for show.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Lucienne)

Post #: 29

RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/w... - 11/24/2009 2:44:41 PM

rulemylife

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Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

US companies can't afford to produce it here. Not because of the cost of the product, but because of the environmental impact and consequence of producing it here. Manufacturing drywall produces 17% waste. The introduction in March 2005 of the Clean Air Interstate Rule by the United States Environmental Protection Agency requires power plants to "cut sulfur dioxide emissions by 73%" by 2018.[8] The Clean Air Interstate Rule also requested that the power plants install new scrubbers (industrial pollution control devices) to remove sulfur dioxide present in the output waste gas.

As a result the manufacturing left the country, the need didn't. You went from a highly regulated, job producing, US product and as a result of environmental special interests, sent the production as well as the oversight, offshore. However, the US consumer still needed the product. This is the result. Is isn't unique.

The reason the Chinese drywall was imported was mainly because of the active hurricane seasons in 2004 and 2005 which not only included Katrina but Wilma.

Florida is the state with the worst problem and Florida alone was hit by eight hurricanes in those two years. Combine that with a new housing construction boom that was occurring in several areas of the state during those years and a shortage of drywall was created.

It had nothing to do with government regulation. Most drywall is still manufactured here.

Drywall - Manufacturer - Directory

American Gypsum - American Gypsum has been manufacturing, selling, and distributing gypsum wallboard products for over 40 years. Serving the drywall industry with quality products that are sold throughout the United States, American Gypsum's management has over 100 years of collective experience in all areas of the business.
BPB - We know our customers expect only the best. We have the right formulas and the right measure of quality that will satisfy the most demanding customers. That's why we've chosen to call our line of gypsum wallboard ProRoc™ Brand, and our line of finishing products ProFin™ Brand.
Georgia Pacific - Whether you are a building materials dealer, an architect looking to create a building specifications package or a homeowner looking to re-model your family room - tell us about yourself, and let us know how we can make your job easier!
James Hardi - James Hardie fiber cement siding, backerboard and pipe products provide low maintenance and offer durability other materials can't match.
National Gypsum - National Gypsum Company is a fully integrated manufacturer and supplier of building and construction products worldwide. Our primary emphasis is on Gold Bond® BRAND gypsum wallboard, ProForm® BRAND joint treatment products and PermaBase® BRAND cement board, in addition to plaster, ceiling and abuse resistant systems.
Pabco Gypsum - Commercial and residential builders throughout the United States and as far away as China count on PABCO Gypsum to deliver exceptional gypsum wallboard products. The available selection covers the spectrum of gypsum board producers in a variety of core types, sizes, and paper surfaces.
Temple Inland - Temple-Inland manufactures a full line of quality gypsum wallboard products for fast, cost-efficient wall construction in both residential and commercial applications.
Unifix Inc. - Unifix is a symbol of quality and dependability. We manufacture lightweight cement board building products well known on an international scale.
USG - USG.com, United States Gypsum is a leading manufacturer of construction and remodeling industry building materials. USG manufactures drywall, SHEETROCK, ceilings, gypsum, DUROCK, and cement boards.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 11/24/2009 2:46:53 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 30

RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/w... - 11/24/2009 2:50:11 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

Most drywall is still manufactured here.

I won't bother to provide more documentation and use your post for my point.

Most = All?

There is no problem and it's not cheaper to deal with landfill in China than it is in any of the locations of those companies?

What are they doing with the stuff being unloaded today in Long Beach?

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 31

RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/w... - 11/24/2009 2:56:15 PM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

What I meant was, are there regulators, what do they regulate and how in this case?

Google is not giving me easy answers to these questions. The Consumer Products Safety Commission, as well as the EPA and the CDC seem to be on the case now. But there's no indication that the material was inspected at customs. I imagine with all the trade agreements we have that there are certain warranties of safety that need to be made before allowing the product into the country. I think that puts Homeland Security as the first point of control. As to how frequently those warranties are subjected to any testing? Who knows. I get the impression that our harbors are a mess and the security officials are more concerned with weapons, explosives, and drugs than they are with consumer safety.

Thanks. I admit I'm not being direct here though - I guess my real question is whether those who want "small government" and "less regulation" are happy to let these homeowners go begging for want of adquate regulation?

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Lucienne)

Post #: 32

RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/w... - 11/24/2009 3:26:46 PM

Lucienne

Posts: 1175
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Thanks. I admit I'm not being direct here though - I guess my real question is whether those who want "small government" and "less regulation" are happy to let these homeowners go begging for want of adquate regulation?

E

In my experience, answers from the small government crowd consistently track with how closely they and their's are to the problem. I bet there's a ton of small government types in florida who support the government rewriting insurance contracts so that policies can't be cancelled on the drywall issue. Small government types out west, where this hasn't been an issue, probably think the market should sort it out. That's just my rule of thumb.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 33

RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/w... - 11/24/2009 3:29:27 PM

Moonhead

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Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

That sounds about right.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Lucienne)

Post #: 34

RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/w... - 11/24/2009 3:32:06 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Its an interesting mess without knowing the ins and outs; hopefully someone - not homeowners - will be obliged to resolve it.

CPSC Releases 2nd Chinese Drywall Report; Corrosion Link Cited

Meanwhile, the civil justice implications of these findings remain unclear. “Thousands of homeowners who bought new houses built with the imported Chinese building product are finding their lives in limbo as hundreds of lawsuits against builders, contractors, suppliers and manufacturers wind through the courts.”

Yet just one manufacturer, Knauf Plasterboard Tianjian, has “agreed to be served with a federal class-action lawsuit and not force plaintiffs to go through international legal channels.”

Still others “with corrosive drywall from China in their homes are in a bind because their builders have gone bankrupt and it's not clear whether they can be held liable.”

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 35

RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/w... - 11/24/2009 3:44:49 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Most drywall is still manufactured here.
I won't bother to provide more documentation and use your post for my point.

Most = All?

There is no problem and it's not cheaper to deal with landfill in China than it is in any of the locations of those companies?

What are they doing with the stuff being unloaded today in Long Beach?

Feel free to bother. Your point earlier was that this problem was caused by government regulation and there was no drywall being manufactured here because of the increased costs due to that regulation.

Several people pointed out you were in were in error, not only about the fact drywall was still being made here but the causes of the shortage.

Now you want to change the discussion to percentages.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 36

RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/w... - 11/24/2009 4:05:49 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

Your point earlier was that this problem was caused by government regulation and there was no drywall being manufactured here because of the increased costs due to that regulation.

"No drywall being manufactured here." Is that the meaning you took from; "Us companies can't afford to produce it here."? Okay - I can see that incorrect and agenda based interpretation; however that is neither what I said nor inferred. For me there is a clear distinction.

Nevertheless, you don't get to tell me what my point is. The results bear it out. It was, and must still be, easier to import from China than increase production (albeit temporarily), or better yet build a new plant, since there is still a large amount of drywall among the many billions of dollars of other goods, being imported from 1/2 way (FL may be 2/3) around the world in China.

If not for government hurdles and environmental regulations why is that the case?

When you can point out the fallacy of that position, then I'll provide further, and referenced, proof.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 37

RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/w... - 11/24/2009 4:11:00 PM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

If not for government hurdles and environmental regulations why is that the case?

Now I'm confused.

On the one hand the Chinese drywall was imported because of US government over regulation, on the other hand it was imported because of US government under regulation.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 38

RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/w... - 11/24/2009 4:34:39 PM

AnimusRex

Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Why can't they produce it at a cost that makes manufacture and import from China impractical in the first place?

Maybe quality made gypsum board- that is, gypsum board that ISN"T made out of toxic sludge- is always going to be more expensive. Well, that and the fact that there is a rather large pool of slave labor in China willing to work for a dollar a day.

We have plenty of toxic sludge right here in the good ole USA. We could be the world's #1 exporter of toxic gypsum board if we put our best minds on the problem. We could probably make gypsum board that is far more toxic, with higher amounts of carcinogens that anywhere on earth.
And by repealing OSHA regulations, labor law regulations, child labor regulations, we could probably underbid the Chinese slave labor factories at the same time.

I take it as a personal affront that this great nation is falling behind in the production of toxic gypsum board-
Say what you will, gentlemen, but I will not stand by while someone badmouths the United States of AMERICA!!!

OK- seriously. I watched the development of this, since as I do construction material specifying. In the boom years of the late 90's through 2006, the massive amounts of construction in China acted like a global vacuum cleaner, sucking up nearly every building product made; Concrete, plywood, steel, copper you name it; all these materials became scarce, prices skyrocketed, and in that vacuum cheaper made, highly questionable products flooded the market.

There is no magic here; places that have no labor laws or environmental regulations will always- ALWAYS- underbid those that do. It will always be cheaper to make a product by using slave labor and dumping your waste into the city reservoir than paying to ship it to a waste dump.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 39

RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/w... - 11/24/2009 4:38:23 PM

Lucienne

Posts: 1175
Joined: 9/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Nevertheless, you don't get to tell me what my point is. The results bear it out. It was, and must still be, easier to import from China than increase production (albeit temporarily), or better yet build a new plant, since there is still a large amount of drywall among the many billions of dollars of other goods, being imported from 1/2 way (FL may be 2/3) around the world in China.

If not for government hurdles and environmental regulations why is that the case?

When you can point out the fallacy of that position, then I'll provide further, and referenced, proof.

Domestic production was increased, temporarily, to capacity. New plants weren't built because someone along the line in this ridiculous mess accepted that the housing bubble wasn't going to last forever. The increase in construction due to the bubble and hurricane repair work caused a temporary scarcity issue. The scarcity created the increase in price. I don't think you can blame the government for hurricane season. You probably can blame Alan Greenspan for the housing bubble, but that was a lack of regulation, not too much.

Once scarcity increased the price domestically, people had an incentive to buy whatever imported shit they could get their hands on because they still had projects to complete. Said foreign shit, by meeting demand, brought the prices back to prior levels. The temporary scarcity issue passed. And it's my understanding that we are no longer importing drywall from China.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 40

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