How can US automakers compete with Toyota quality? (Full Version)

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rulemylife -> How can US automakers compete with Toyota quality? (11/25/2009 12:41:18 AM)

Toyota to recall 110,000 Tundra trucks over excessive rust


WASHINGTON – Toyota Motor Corp. will recall 110,000 Tundra trucks from the 2000-2003 model years to address excessive rust on the vehicle's frame. The government urged owners to remove the spare tire from the frame, concerned it could fall onto the road and create a hazard for other vehicles.

The recall announced Tuesday involves 2000-2003 model year Tundras registered in 20 "cold weather" states and the District of Columbia. The states are: Connecticut, Delaware, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, Virginia, West Virginia and Wisconsin.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration opened an investigation into excessive rust on Tundra frames in October after receiving 20 complaints of "severe frame corrosion." NHTSA said then it had received 15 reports alleging the spare tire, stowed under the truck bed, separated from the frame. Five other reports alleged broken brake lines because of the rust.




servantforuse -> RE: How can US automakers compete with Toyota quality? (11/25/2009 6:52:58 AM)

I just got a recall notice for my Hyundai...Same problem, for basically the same states...




Termyn8or -> RE: How can US automakers compete with Toyota quality? (11/25/2009 7:05:58 AM)

Does anyone remember decades ago a news story about a bunch of imported cars rusting in warehouses ? New, never sold or titled, were all scrapped.

But the title of the thread seems almost sarcastic in nature, and I was ready to field the question. How can we compete ? Well in martial arts we are taught to sidestep the opponent when possible and practical, I think the same logic applies here.

Our product must differ from their's. Back in the eighties those cars rusted "on the shelf" so to speak because nobody wanted to buy them. Why ? Even though our product might not have been better, it was percieved as better.

About fifty years ago Chrysler used to galvanize the chassis' of their cars. There were very few if any unibody cars made here. They were stronger and safer. Bigger engines made up for the extra weight, back when gas prices were within reason. But that doesn't mean they weren't corrupt. The established automakers made it impossible for Cord to get steel with which to build cars. For anyone not enlightened, the Cord was the most advanced car of it's time. It was a big threat to their laurels.

Today it is different. They are just as ruthless but really don't have the moxie and the brains to win a fair fight. Today the focus is on features, not on a solid basic design. They have been purposely made expensive and difficult to repair. And the one thing, the full frame instead of unibody is all but gone except for trucks. I've had two Buicks, both of which I really liked go down for the count. The engines fell out of them. Because of their desingn, this pulls the steering shaft out of the gearbox, and if it happens on the highway you are in big trouble. This is not a sound design.

However they had good radios and AC. Even that is gone. Through the eighties and nineties GM collaberated with Hughes Aircraft for the FM tuner, Blaupunkt for cassette decks and Bose for speakers. Now they sound like shit. The AC used to be a supersize system with a thermostatically controlled expansion valve and a BIG accumulator, which is a reservoir for freon because they knew they would leak. The accumulator is gone and now they are a cheapo cap tube system which requires a critical weighed in charge.

The ECM used to be under the dash, after all it is an electronic component and should be shielded from the elements. Not any more. Now they are under the hood and I know many need replacement, simply because the case corroded away. What's more replacement is no easy matter. You need the VIN, why ? Because the mileage is stored within in NVM.

Let me reveal something about technology. Remember old TVs ? They had a knob to change channels, behind the knob was the tuner. Well now it is all pushbutton. Why ? A couple of chips and what used to be called a varactor tuner became cheaper than building the old style tuners. Now adding features is usually a matter of writing some ASIC type code (software), and adding more buttons. In fact take apart just about any remote control and you will find room and accomodations for the extra buttons. It is cheaper.

It is cheaper to give you a user configurable dashboard rather than provide mechanical instumentation. It is cheaper to give you a roller cam than to put a real frame underneath. Yes my Buicks had roller cams, which used to be a very expensive aftermarket addon. Now when addressed in the manufacturing stage it is cheap, but is percieved by the customers as a great feature, when in reality it is required to get the preformance out of these flea speck engines. Fuel injection solved so many problems at once concerning perfomance and emissions that it was deemed cheaper to discard the old carberators and use it.

Cord had disk brakes, a lockup torque convertor and many other things. Bosch made fuel injection happen WITHOUT ELECTRONICS. The thing is, as long as the US automakers could depend on a certain level of patriotism in this country, they made it pay. Now that is gone and they have to do some real engineering, but they can't.

Back to the Tundra, isn't there some sort of comprehensive warranty on those ? Toyota should be replacing frame members in these vehicles, and doing so would boost their image. In fact if they are now under recall, that is probably exactly what they will be doing.

How can we compete ? First of all tout reliability. This would be one hell of a good selling point to any possible customer that has had a car break down on the road. And new cars, it is not a matter of adjusting the points to get it going again.

Trucks have always been a golden goose for US automakers. In fact looking at some of the current advertising they seem to be concentrating on that somewhat. But notice the price. Also notice that most US made trucks use tried and tested technology, slightly older, but reliable. Why ?

Because trucks are used for work. You think it's bad to get stuck in your car ? Try it with a crew and materials for a construction job on board, and don't forget those tools.

Years ago a coworker and I were at Sears to get some parts for our drill/drivers. This was alot of trips for him because of all things the speed control (trigger) kept going bad. The saleman asked him "What are you using this for ?", Smitty said "Work". The salesman said "If I'd have known you were going to use for work I would've sold you a Makita".

Call me cynical, but I think it is more of a matter of me not forgetting things as quickly as most.

Put me in charge of GM for a couple of years and see what happens. I have no degree and actually dropped out of school to get a real education. They would never hire me. But the fact is I could run circles around the current regime. In fact to prove it, pay them their salary to do my job and they will fall flat on their face. Of course I am starting to think that if they were given any real job.

Let's put it this way, it takes alot of guts and faith in one's product to open up a business in the midst of stiff competition. In other words, you don't open a pizza place right next door to an existing pizza place, usually. What's more if you have been there a while and a bunch of pizza places open up nearby, you better expand the menu or move.

Simple, a vastly different category and scale of operations, but the same rules apply. Just like physics. With a few exceptions, the same rules apply to all branches of physics. So it is with business.

And that last part is not how you compete, it is how you win.

T




servantforuse -> RE: How can US automakers compete with Toyota quality? (11/25/2009 7:17:12 AM)

Part of the problem started with GM, Ford and Chrysler 30 years ago. There were articles in the papers way back then about UAW workers driving foreign cars to work. Why were they buying Hondas an Toyotas ? They wouldn't even purchase their own product.




rikigrl -> RE: How can US automakers compete with Toyota quality? (11/25/2009 7:50:46 AM)

There is also this as a testament to Toyota quality:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091125/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_floor_mats




pahunkboy -> RE: How can US automakers compete with Toyota quality? (11/25/2009 8:22:13 AM)

Well then.

That decides it.


We simply MUST have (another) cash for clunkers program!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  yeHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!




willbeurdaddy -> RE: How can US automakers compete with Toyota quality? (11/25/2009 9:58:36 AM)

And today nearly 4 million recalled for gas pedal problems.

Problem is they are STILL better than GM and Chrysler cars. Can't speak to Ford, my father made me promise never to buy one....35 years ago.




Irishknight -> RE: How can US automakers compete with Toyota quality? (11/25/2009 2:54:52 PM)

My Ford truck has already outlasted a number of my friends' "superior foreign automobiles." I'm sure it will outlast a few more.




SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: How can US automakers compete with Toyota quality? (11/25/2009 3:23:55 PM)

Well window fixings on my Ford rusted after two months but then again it was built in Europe I suppose.

I can only theorise the communist workers were at some Marxist union meeting rather than applying that anti rust coating.[8|]

Oh yeah and another thing: when I hit that bollard planted on the street corner by some council minion the bodywork bent, can you believe it?




popeye1250 -> RE: How can US automakers compete with Toyota quality? (11/25/2009 7:13:12 PM)

What's the big surprise, Toyotas have always been rust buckets!




LadyEllen -> RE: How can US automakers compete with Toyota quality? (11/25/2009 7:26:08 PM)

I have to say I'm quite impressed that Toyota are owning the problem. Next to BMW theyre being incredibly responsible in all this.

BMW are currently refusing to do anything about the low profile, run flat wheels fitted to their vehicles in the UK. Drivers have been reporting for some time now that these wheels crack and crack in a dangerous fashion - which BMW say is because of driver carelessness, citing in particular the "poor roads" in Surrey, one of the wealthiest counties in England, in one instance.

E




servantforuse -> RE: How can US automakers compete with Toyota quality? (11/25/2009 8:49:39 PM)

I bought a Honda civic new in 1989. I drove it for 17 years until some under body parts were in the driveway when I went to work in the morning. I bought the XG350 Hyundai from my dad 3 years ago. Great car.




thornhappy -> RE: How can US automakers compete with Toyota quality? (11/25/2009 8:52:19 PM)

Thing is, their quality's dropped (decreased reliability), according to Consumer Reports; they went from first to fifth place.




Irishknight -> RE: How can US automakers compete with Toyota quality? (11/26/2009 5:54:00 AM)

I've driven Toyotas and never found them to be so much greater. In my opinion, tht was all hype with very little substance. I drove a honda and found it to be 100 times the car that the Toyota was. I still like my Ford far better than either. Even years ago when the Toyota relgious movement was praying to their superior vehicles and demonizing anything from Detroit, my best friend went through a number of transmission issues with a new Toyota and my ex-father-in-laws could not get the brakes to keep working on his Toyota 4x4. My experiences showed them to be nothing more than machines and no better than the domestically produced ones.




mnottertail -> RE: How can US automakers compete with Toyota quality? (11/26/2009 6:09:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

My Ford truck has already outlasted a number of my friends' "superior foreign automobiles." I'm sure it will outlast a few more.


Ford truck bodies certainly have rusting problems, always have had them.  I have a 78 with a 300 straight six and the only thing I have done is tear apart a couple chrysler pumpkins to get the cup bushings for the 4 legged pumpkins, for my Ford, because they only sell the whole cage and not just the cup bearings any more. 
But you only got either Spicer or Dana pumpkins in domestic auto, so it all is fairly interchangeable except the pain in the ass to match the gearing sometimes.

Some of the best engines in the world
Ford 300
Chrysler 225 slant 6
Chrysler 318 v 8 (either the wide block or narrow)

But ford pickup bodies though the nicest looking are for shit when it comes to rusting out.

Ron 




LadyEllen -> RE: How can US automakers compete with Toyota quality? (11/26/2009 6:30:06 AM)

Whilst its nothing new to be confused at some of your posts Ron, I had absolutely no idea what you were talking about there.

E




rulemylife -> RE: How can US automakers compete with Toyota quality? (11/26/2009 7:15:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

I've driven Toyotas and never found them to be so much greater..... Even years ago when the Toyota relgious movement was praying to their superior vehicles and demonizing anything from Detroit....


That's exactly why I posted this.  It seems to me quality and reliability are just a matter of perception and trends.  Sort of like people complaining about Congress but thinking their Representative or Senator is doing a great job.






rulemylife -> RE: How can US automakers compete with Toyota quality? (11/26/2009 7:22:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

Thing is, their quality's dropped (decreased reliability), according to Consumer Reports; they went from first to fifth place.


That was another reason I posted this.  Consumer Reports, JD Powers and the others largely rely on owner surveys for their ratings.  There is no hard data about actual frequency of repairs, just the owner's perception.

You can have two people owning the exact vehicle and experiencing the same problems with one calling it reliable and the other thinking it is junk.




thornhappy -> RE: How can US automakers compete with Toyota quality? (11/26/2009 7:38:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Chrysler 225 slant 6
Ron 

I lurvz slant 6's, especially when they are turbocharged.

'63 Valiant, slant six, push-button transmission, home-brew turbocharger.  A real sleeper car.




Termyn8or -> RE: How can US automakers compete with Toyota quality? (11/26/2009 7:39:04 AM)

LE you probably never saw them. The slant six was like half of a V12 and they ran and ran. Didn't seem to need oil or gas, and had some balls. I don't agree completely with all of Ron's assertions, he forgot to mention the Chevy 283.

For metric folk, five litres is about 300 CID. What's more he didn't mention bigblocks, the 454 and 455. The only problem with these engines is that they were put into very heavy cars. They are on par with Europe's best, or very close, and when put into a light body with the right gears they were beyond speeding tickets. By that I mean they were so fast you actually could get away. I know people who did that. Sometimes it backfired, the frame, even a real full frame can get bent out of shape with sufficient power.

Pertinant ? Well yes, because when Americans had their love affair with the automobile the automakers offered just about exactly what the public wanted. Dad told me you used to walk into a Chevy dealership and get what was called a Duntoff cam, also known as the 151 cam for the last three digits of the part number. It was a very special design which I think utilized some degree of valve float at higher RPMs. It would boost the performance quite a bit and you would think they would put them in at the factory. After all they cost no more to produce than the average street cam. This was evidenced by the price, I think he said they were about $12 back in the day. But people loved to modify their own stuff, they had a blast changing the camshaft and then burning up the roads. This was the US back then.

And back then, if you wanted a Chevy engine in a Ford or whatever and couldn't find the right engine mounts and driveshaft or the boltup between the tranny and the engine didn't match up, there were plenty of companies that specialized in making special parts and "adapters" for such projects.

So much for lamenting days gone by. It is simply not possible today. These days it is practically impossible even to change over the cupholder or mirrors. But back then when your abortionmobile was up and running you just stuck some plates on it and drove around. I mean it, in the seventies at my first traffic stop I told the cop "The plates are my Mom's and the car is my Dad's". He said you don't just do that to which I replied "Well I did". Putting plates on a car was a matter of identification, not the money game it is today. In fact as late as ten years ago we had to report a car stolen, they asked the olman the plate number and he begins "Well the back plate is........ and the front plate is....." and he didn't even have the title notarized ! They said straight out "Well it technically isn't your car then". Legally true, but they still returned the car to him.

And the other stories. Buying used cars for $25, and I mean at car lots. Of course that was before my time. What those $25 cars would be worth today boggles the imagination.

Needless to say - I am thoroughly unimpressed with all the junk they build today.

T




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