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RE: Thanksgiving to God: An Act Of Congress and the Pre... - 11/27/2009 2:08:38 PM   
Musicmystery


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Well said, Orion--on both counts.

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RE: Thanksgiving to God: An Act Of Congress and the Pre... - 11/27/2009 2:21:40 PM   
Moonhead


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A friend of mine was once thrown out of a Thanksgiving party in New York in New York for climbing onto a table, raising his glass in a toast and saying: "Gentlemen, the Queen!"
Probably not funny, but I just thought I'd mention it.

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RE: Thanksgiving to God: An Act Of Congress and the Pre... - 11/27/2009 2:59:36 PM   
vincentML


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ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Can you not imagine the scene? The harvest has been gathered at Mount Vernon and all the darky slaves are assembled from the fields and kitchens to receive this benediction. How thrilled they must have been for the kindness of their Master who did not have the humanity or dignity or courage to ban involuntary human slavery from that flawed document....a young nation sanctified with millions in slavery.




quote:

You really want to use a cheap rhetorical trick such as removing a man from his time and placing modern values upon him?


Well, yes! If I can get away with it. But you caught me. Dang! However, the abolistionist and humanistic values were well known in his time.

quote:

George Washington never purchased one slave. Of the those he inherited by marrying, he educated, allowed them to learn to read and write, allowed them to keep the monies earned from their own labors, allowed them paths to freedom from both service and purchases and made provisions for the freedom of all of them upon the death of his wife Martha.


He did not release them until after he and Martha died and he had no further use for them. If he were so radical why did he not free them and pay them a wage to work on his five farms? Afraid they might find better wages elsewhere? It seems you are quite incorrect in your claim that Geo never purchased slaves. You are contradicted here on the website of the Mount Vernon Organization
But we all make mistakes in our posts so I am willing to shrug that one away. I am the first to admit I make my share.


quote:

By standards on the 18th century, Washington was a radical liberal in that regard. Where Jefferson talked the talk and did nothing, Washington not only condemned Slavery, he ended to the people he had the ability to end it for. And let us not forget, it was Washington who came to the conclusion to integrate the United States Army during the Revolution and provided freedom to any of those who fought.


If you look a bit more closely you will notice that the 18th Century is called The Age of Enlightenment or at least includes Enlightenment Philosophers. I think you would be hard pressed to find support for your claim Geo was a radical liberal among such flaming fellows as Thomas Paine, et al. The inequities and cruelties of the black holocaust were well debated on both sides of the Atlantic I think. I would welcome an attribution from you to support your observation favorable to GW.

I am not so sure he "condemned" slavery. I would love to see a citation. The Mount Vernon website does mention he grew to find it a contradiction to the principles of freedom of the new nation but was politically wary of taking action for fear of injuring the Union.

He could have lead by example and freed his human property during his lifetime. I do not see him any better or worse than Jefferson in that regard.

From what I have read Geo was obviously a religious man affiliated with a Christian denomination. There were Africans in his army. I do not know their status - free or slave or mixed. Nor do I know if he offered emancipation for any slaves who fought by his side. Perhaps you have better information on it. Let us not forget until the French sea blockade the rebel army was pretty much getting its ass whipped. Let us also not forget Indigenous People were also employed by both sides.

Check me on this. I have been known to be wrong from time to time. lol! I think the British armies offered emancipation to Africans who joined them in the Southern States.


quote:

And while I am here… That proclamation kinda puts the kibosh upon the notion that Washington did not believe in God. It also shows that evoking God does not in and of itself establish Religion


I don't think I said any of that. Did I say that? If it will allow you to rest comfortably I will accept that Geo believed in god and that politicians endlessly evoke the name of god without being in violation of the Establishment Clause. Heck! I will even accept that god believed in George.

By the way you might find the Proclamation for Thanksgiving was sent to Geo for his signature by the States. I did not see any indication it was his idea. But I guess it really does not matter.

Nice thread FDD. Thank you for helping me learn more.

Vincent

< Message edited by vincentML -- 11/27/2009 3:05:51 PM >


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RE: Thanksgiving to God: An Act Of Congress and the Pre... - 11/27/2009 3:18:11 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Or Washington's God is merely the product of superstition....
Though if God truly exists...he is owed many an apology.His name has been invoked to justify all maner of evil...this benign Holiday not withstanding.


I cannot disagree with you, Mike, on your speculation about the "product of superstition."

But if real, he is owed no apology. Being omnipotent and omnibenevolent he could have prevented many a holocaust including those suffered by the Africans, Jews, and Indigenous People of the New World. The scars of all these events still inform our current affairs.


.
Unless of course God gave man Free Will, which He did.



The issue of how free our Will really is might be debatable but I will sidestep it for now and call your attention to the enormous quantity of suffering of innocent children resulting from cyclones, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, winter storms, floods and disease. Nature is a Bitch on the loose. None of it has to do with human free will but tragedy strikes small children around the world everyday. Seems Evil to me. Is your god not powerful or benevolent enough to protect the innocent children? I think Nature is mindless and uncaring. What about your god?

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Thanksgiving to God: An Act Of Congress and the Pre... - 11/27/2009 3:20:45 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Or Washington's God is merely the product of superstition....
Though if God truly exists...he is owed many an apology.His name has been invoked to justify all maner of evil...this benign Holiday not withstanding.


I cannot disagree with you, Mike, on your speculation about the "product of superstition."

But if real, he is owed no apology. Being omnipotent and omnibenevolent he could have prevented many a holocaust including those suffered by the Africans, Jews, and Indigenous People of the New World. The scars of all these events still inform our current affairs.


.
Unless of course God gave man Free Will, which He did.



The issue of how free our Will really is might be debatable but I will sidestep it for now and call your attention to the enormous quantity of suffering of innocent children resulting from cyclones, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, winter storms, floods and disease. Nature is a Bitch on the loose. None of it has to do with human free will but tragedy strikes small children around the world everyday. Seems Evil to me. Is your god not powerful or benevolent enough to protect the innocent children? I think Nature is mindless and uncaring. What about your god?

Have you heard of theodicy? I'd have a look at wiki: there are various religious bodies who've made a fine art of making excuses for God's inaction.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Thanksgiving to God: An Act Of Congress and the Pre... - 11/27/2009 3:34:08 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

I sometimes wonder how well and good, those that rip things apart, would stand the same scrutiny of their lives. This quote has a  nice sentiment, put in the correct context, and a punch bowl for some to shit in. You forgot to mention how he forced his wife to wear dresses that covered her ankles.

Washington and many of the founding fathers believed in a god, but not as many religions are practiced today. A deist believes in a god/creator, but in a much different way. FDD if you posted that to push a religious agenda, then you are not much better than those that wish to rip it apart, you are a cog in the wheel of the same machine.


You do speak wisely Orion.

However, on examining the issue it seems there is much to favor the idea that GW was very much a Christian as well as a Deist.
You might read here for example.


Nor should you write off the issue of religious conflict quite so easily. We nonbelievers live our lives within the framework of Western Civilization dominated by Christianity and its institutions, and threatened by a jihadist branch of a somewhat alien religion, so there is some importance for us to self-define by counterpoint. Look, I am not the Elephant standing there in the living room nor the herd of Buffalo stampeding through the back yard.

vincent

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Thanksgiving to God: An Act Of Congress and the Pre... - 11/27/2009 3:37:13 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Or Washington's God is merely the product of superstition....
Though if God truly exists...he is owed many an apology.His name has been invoked to justify all maner of evil...this benign Holiday not withstanding.


I cannot disagree with you, Mike, on your speculation about the "product of superstition."

But if real, he is owed no apology. Being omnipotent and omnibenevolent he could have prevented many a holocaust including those suffered by the Africans, Jews, and Indigenous People of the New World. The scars of all these events still inform our current affairs.


.
Unless of course God gave man Free Will, which He did.



The issue of how free our Will really is might be debatable but I will sidestep it for now and call your attention to the enormous quantity of suffering of innocent children resulting from cyclones, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, winter storms, floods and disease. Nature is a Bitch on the loose. None of it has to do with human free will but tragedy strikes small children around the world everyday. Seems Evil to me. Is your god not powerful or benevolent enough to protect the innocent children? I think Nature is mindless and uncaring. What about your god?

Have you heard of theodicy? I'd have a look at wiki: there are various religious bodies who've made a fine art of making excuses for God's inaction.


~~smiles~~ Thank you. I am well aware of it. In return I suggest a book titled God's Problem by Bart D Ehrman.

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Thanksgiving to God: An Act Of Congress and the Pre... - 11/27/2009 3:48:47 PM   
Moonhead


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Thanks. I'll have to find a copy of that.

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(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Thanksgiving to God: An Act Of Congress and the Pre... - 11/27/2009 6:19:59 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Unless of course God gave man Free Will, which He did.



Really? I heard Santa Clause gave us that.

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RE: Thanksgiving to God: An Act Of Congress and the Pre... - 11/27/2009 7:32:19 PM   
Musicmystery


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George Washington decides a day of thanksgiving would be a good idea, and here that's controversial.

Amazing. Just amazing.

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Thanksgiving to God: An Act Of Congress and the Pre... - 11/27/2009 8:38:47 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

George Washington decides a day of thanksgiving would be a good idea, and here that's controversial.

Amazing. Just amazing.
Speaking solely for myself Tim,I'm just having some fun with FDD....no controversy just plain fun.

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 11/27/2009 8:39:17 PM >


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Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Thanksgiving to God: An Act Of Congress and the Pre... - 11/28/2009 10:01:44 AM   
breatheasone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me to "recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"

Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions; to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shown kindness to us), and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows to be best.



Given under my hand, at the city of New York, the 3d day of October, A.D. 1789.

George Washington

Its nice to remember where we came from ....i wished we(our government) hadn't strayed SO FAR from our founding fathers. Thank you for the reminder


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RE: Thanksgiving to God: An Act Of Congress and the Pre... - 11/28/2009 11:05:57 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

Its nice to remember where we came from ....i wished we(our government) hadn't strayed SO FAR from our founding fathers. Thank you for the reminder



Me too. The further this country has shifted away from deism and toward theism, the more it's rocketed downhill. I suspect George, Thomas, and Benjamin are either spinning in their graves or shaking their heads in teary-eyed disgust.


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Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


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RE: Thanksgiving to God: An Act Of Congress and the Pre... - 11/28/2009 11:17:52 AM   
breatheasone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

Its nice to remember where we came from ....i wished we(our government) hadn't strayed SO FAR from our founding fathers. Thank you for the reminder



Me too. The further this country has shifted away from deism and toward theism, the more it's rocketed downhill. I suspect George, Thomas, and Benjamin are either spinning in their graves or shaking their heads in teary-eyed disgust.


Yep..... i'm sure our founding fathers don't even recognize this country any more


_____________________________

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Mike posts in black font
candy posts in pink font

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RE: Thanksgiving to God: An Act Of Congress and the Pre... - 11/28/2009 1:04:04 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Thanks. I'll have to find a copy of that.

here on Amazon

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RE: Thanksgiving to God: An Act Of Congress and the Pre... - 11/28/2009 1:06:23 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

George Washington decides a day of thanksgiving would be a good idea, and here that's controversial.

Amazing. Just amazing.


Can't understand your perplexity. Isn't it proper to assume we can respond when someone starts a thread on these boards? Mostly it is in good spirits and quite educational.

vincent

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vML

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RE: Thanksgiving to God: An Act Of Congress and the Pre... - 11/28/2009 1:11:21 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

Its nice to remember where we came from ....i wished we(our government) hadn't strayed SO FAR from our founding fathers. Thank you for the reminder



Me too. The further this country has shifted away from deism and toward theism, the more it's rocketed downhill. I suspect George, Thomas, and Benjamin are either spinning in their graves or shaking their heads in teary-eyed disgust.


Yep..... i'm sure our founding fathers don't even recognize this country any more



Ummmm. I am confused. Panda said the country went downhill as it shifted toward theism and breatheasone agree. Am I missing something here?

vincent

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Thanksgiving to God: An Act Of Congress and the Pre... - 11/28/2009 1:32:07 PM   
MstrPBK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy: "... And while I am here… That proclamation kinda puts the kibosh upon the notion that Washington did not believe in God. It also shows that evoking God does not in and of itself establish Religion ... "


I was exceptional surprised to see who wrote the original quote which the OP provided. Based on the thread header I had expected it to be very contemporary misguided political statement.

As a Unitarian Universalist I don't think that G. Washington was either Unitarian or Universalist. Does anyone know what denomination G. Washington accepted? I know other contemporaries of his time did claim either as there's.

MstrPBK
St.Paul, MN USA

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RE: Thanksgiving to God: An Act Of Congress and the Pre... - 11/28/2009 1:48:02 PM   
Musicmystery


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Church of England / Episcopal

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RE: Thanksgiving to God: An Act Of Congress and the Pre... - 11/28/2009 3:04:26 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Church of England / Episcopal


The Wiki article contains some unverified controversy of interest. I offer it with no conviction of my own but just as a matter of curiosity. Make of it what you will:

~~~~~~~~~~~...................~~~~~~~~~~~~~......................~~~~~~~~~~~

"Washington regularly attended Sunday services and purchased a family pew at several churches. Rev. Lee Massey, his pastor in Mt Vernon, wrote "I never knew so constant an attendant in church as Washington."[8]

Whether Washington partook of communion is a question of tremendous controversy. In 1833, Nelly Custis-Lewis, Washington's adopted daughter, wrote about her mother, Eleanor Calvert-Lewis, who lived at Mount Vernon for two years: "I have heard her say that General Washington always received the sacrament with my grandmother before the revolution."[9]

Major William Popham, one of General Washington's aides during the Revolution wrote, "the President [Washington] had more than once—I believe I say often—attended the sacramental table, at which I had the privilege and happiness to kneel with him."[10]
Another contemporary, Elizabeth Schuyler Hamilton (the wife of Alexander Hamilton), is reported by her great-grandson to have said the following to him: "If anyone ever tells you that George Washington was not a communicant in the Church, you say that your great-grandmother told you to say that she 'had knelt at this chancel rail at his side and received with him the Holy Communion.'"[11]

Besides a few other contemporary accounts like those above, the record of his taking communion contradicts such claims.[12] Among the sources, ministers at four of the churches Washington often attended wrote that he never took communion. Rev. Dr. James Abercrombie, rector of St. Peter's Episcopal Church, in Philadelphia, related a story in which Washington said he was never a communicant.[13] Washington regularly left services before communion, along with the other non-communicants. When Abercrombie mentioned in a weekly sermon that those in elevated stations set an unhappy example by leaving at communion, Washington completely stopped attending on communion Sundays[14][15] (communion was not celebrated every week in the Episcopal Church at that time). Long after Washington died, when asked about Washington's beliefs, Abercrombie replied: "Sir, Washington was a Deist!"[16]
Washington took his first presidential oath on the King James Version of the Bible. There is no known record of a Bible being used at his second inauguration.
<SNIP>

His adopted daughter, Nelly Custis-Lewis, in response to a request from Jared Sparks in 1833 for information on Washington's religions views, wrote, "He attended the church at Alexandria when the weather and roads permitted a ride of ten miles (a one-way journey of 2-3 hours by horse or carriage). In New York and Philadelphia he never omitted attendance at church in the morning, unless detained by indisposition [sickness]." She continues by saying "No one in church attended to the services with more reverential respect." She adds: "I should have thought it the greatest heresy to doubt his firm belief in Christianity. His life, his writings, prove that he was a Christian. He was not one of those who act or pray, that they may be seen of men."[9]

On February 1, 1800, a few weeks after Washington's death, Thomas Jefferson made the following entry in his journal, regarding an incident on the occasion of Washington's departure from office:[19][20]

"Dr. Rush tells me that he had it from Asa Green that when the clergy addressed Genl. Washington on his departure from the govmt, it was observed in their consultation that he had never on any occasion said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Xn religion and they thot they should so pen their address as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However he observed the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice. Rush observes he never did say a word on the subject in any of his public papers except in his valedictory letter to the Governors of the states when he resigned his commission in the army, wherein he speaks of the benign influence of the Christian religion.

"I know that Gouverneur Morris, who pretended to be in his secrets & believed himself to be so, has often told me that Genl. Washington believed no more of that system than he himself did."

~~~~~~~~................~~~~~~~~~~~~~~,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Washington was rather enigmatic wasn't he? I always found him as the most distant of the Founders to understand.

vincent



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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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