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ORIGINAL: Moonhead
That's actually a big contradiction right from the off there: either He's everything (the notion the Wiccans have picked up on in a big way) or he's outside of everything. It can't be both, however ineffable He is.

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

It's quite possible to imagine a universe without a God, but you couldn't have a God without a universe. Probably not relevant, but I just thought I'd mention that.

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ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

It's quite possible to imagine a universe without a God, but you couldn't have a God without a universe. Probably not relevant, but I just thought I'd mention that.

Thats an interesting point. Im not sure I agree with it, and I doubt any theists would agree with it, since if it is correct it leads inexorably to the conclusion that god could not have created the universe.

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ORIGINAL: Rule

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead
That's actually a big contradiction right from the off there: either He's everything (the notion the Wiccans have picked up on in a big way) or he's outside of everything. It can't be both, however ineffable He is.

If I chop off a finger, I am outside my finger, but it is still my finger. (It is more complicated than that, but it is a good analogy.)

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

The problem is when your head is inside a box your own stupidity, insanity, and arrogance are reinforced... I will no longer contribute to the care and feeding of your childish vanity.

Now, now... let's debate in a kindly fashion.

K.

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ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

It's quite possible to imagine a universe without a God, but you couldn't have a God without a universe. Probably not relevant, but I just thought I'd mention that.

Thats an interesting point. Im not sure I agree with it, and I doubt any theists would agree with it, since if it is correct it leads inexorably to the conclusion that god could not have created the universe.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: switch2please

There was some debate about my usage of 'belief'...
When I state that I absolutely believe in evolution, I mean that I personally have not proved the theory of evolution - it is not fact, it is just a theory, there is always another option - but from what I've read, it makes the most sense. If I were to have faith in one theory in the creationism vs. evolutionism debate, I have faith in evolution. I've yet to see either of these viewpoints proved conclusively beyond a doubt, but I choose to believe in evolutionism.

I sympathize with your point of view but I think you are stating a misconception about what constitutes a Scientific Theory. In the scientific method a theory is never proven. It is accepted to a degree of probability based upon the observations and data gathered and measured. Inferences are drawn and peer-reviewed and challenged. Whatever theory you are referring to is never static. It is always open to either adjustment or rejection pending new information or data that do not support it. No need to prove the theory of evolution. Don't let anyone pull that rhetorical gambit on you. The present collection of data from geology, genetics, microbe mutation, etc is pretty convincing.... until some data comes along to suggest otherwise.

The Creationists do not offer any positive new data. Creationism is a "science of the gaps." You see, they say, here's a missing link, there's a missing link, so the theory must be wrong. They refuse to understand or admit that soft tissue fossils are very rare due to decomposition. They reject or refuse to take into account the 5 billion years of time involved in the long algorithmic process of change.

Don't be fooled. When push comes to shove they reach for a supernatural skyhook. It is just theology camouflaged.

vincent

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

It's quite possible to imagine a universe without a God, but you couldn't have a God without a universe. Probably not relevant, but I just thought I'd mention that.

Thats an interesting point. Im not sure I agree with it, and I doubt any theists would agree with it, since if it is correct it leads inexorably to the conclusion that god could not have created the universe.

I don't see how you can say that Will. Is it not the theists' assumption that God is eternal but the Universe is not? I have always thought so. I mean I always thought that was the assumption. (I have some other thoughts now) Our Universe, at least, started with a big bang so they say. Consequently, there was a time zero for the Universe. Assuming for the moment that god was the creator, just humor me here, I have often wondered what he did during all the preceding eternity. Did he have conversations with himself, play games with himself, maybe even naughty games? What exactly does a god do in nothingness? Or does he fill up the nothingness with himself and so completely occupy himself with himself? And then to create a Universe does he have to move over, get himself out of the way, make a little room for the expanding matter and energy? He must have had to think it through carefully, don't you agree? Could have been a dilemma - to create or not create; that is the question. Whether it is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of a bunch of idiots saying nasty things on message boards, or just forget the whole thing. A crucial decision. Know what I mean?

Vincent

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ORIGINAL: switch2please

If you read the rest of my post, I was attempting to clarify my usage of the word 'belief' - I am well aware that nothing can ever truly be proven. That said, the constant nature of change makes the absolutes 'nothing' and 'ever' ridiculous, but they contribute to the context - without these absolute statements, my argument and yours would collapse into the unstable realm of metaphysics.

As you said, the data is convincing - until new data suggests otherwise. My belief in evolution is reinforced by this current data. "It is always open to either adjustment or rejection pending new information or data that do not support it. No need to prove the theory of evolution."
My point? I believe in evolution, and I don't require proof to do so. Since neither can offer conclusive proof, they are both theology. I am a disciple of science, by choice.

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ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

It's quite possible to imagine a universe without a God, but you couldn't have a God without a universe. Probably not relevant, but I just thought I'd mention that.

Thats an interesting point. Im not sure I agree with it, and I doubt any theists would agree with it, since if it is correct it leads inexorably to the conclusion that god could not have created the universe.

I don't see how you can say that Will. Is it not the theists' assumption that God is eternal but the Universe is not? I have always thought so. I mean I always thought that was the assumption. (I have some other thoughts now) Our Universe, at least, started with a big bang so they say. Consequently, there was a time zero for the Universe. Assuming for the moment that god was the creator, just humor me here, I have often wondered what he did during all the preceding eternity. Did he have conversations with himself, play games with himself, maybe even naughty games? What exactly does a god do in nothingness? Or does he fill up the nothingness with himself and so completely occupy himself with himself? And then to create a Universe does he have to move over, get himself out of the way, make a little room for the expanding matter and energy? He must have had to think it through carefully, don't you agree? Could have been a dilemma - to create or not create; that is the question. Whether it is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of a bunch of idiots saying nasty things on message boards, or just forget the whole thing. A crucial decision. Know what I mean?

Vincent

If there cannot be a god without a universe and there was ever a time when there was no universe then no god could have existed to create it. As I said, I dont know if I agree with the initial premise, though, and probably don't. It would not be so much an entity/force whatever "outside the universe" (and therefore not dependent on the existence of the universe) but something that "exists" in a manner that we just cant comprehend. But in the context of an Abrahamaic god, though, I would agree think that he/she/it could not exist without a universe...which in turn is probably colored by my atheism.

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

It's quite possible to imagine a universe without a God, but you couldn't have a God without a universe. Probably not relevant, but I just thought I'd mention that.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

My other choice is mass/energy without end (very Catholic rip off) in both directions. I find this latter somewhat easier to accept even though it leads me inevitably to my own non-existence.

vincent