RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen

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Underumam -> RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen (12/4/2009 9:08:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne quote: The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government The context for this quote is that it is not a quote from Thomas Jefferson. Click here. The "government fear the people" quote is also not Jefferson. It's actually been sourced to a 1914 debate about socialism. Here. The above quoted source found the first instances of these quotes being attributed to Jefferson in 1993 and 1994. I'm guessing it was part of the NRA's contribution to the republican revolution. What's odd and stupid about inventing and/or misattributing quotes like this is that the United States was a country formed by the violent overthrow of the existing government. It really isn't much of a stretch to believe that the Founders thought that first line defense against intruders and usurpers was important to the citizenry. Without getting into a lengthy 2nd Amendment debate, it's certainly my read of the history that part of its purpose was the idea that an armed citizenry would serve as a defense to an over-reaching government. (No, "militias" did not mean National Guard, I can't believe people make that argument with a straight face). Having accepted that, the idea that today's armed citizenry serves as a disincentive to an overreaching government is quite laughable. Lucienne, your source listed on this post is not exactly what I'd call scholarly one. Wiki-based sources are usually based on random opinions at best, as anyone can most often add to them/take away from them. If you were to use these "sources" for a university accredited essay or dissertation, you would be failed automatically. My Jefferson quotes come from two places,. The first is a research data base with the university I attend, and you will not be granted access to. However,this one pretty much backs up what the database documents claim, but is not considered a scholarly source either. You seem to have a propensity for semantics... http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/37700.html You others who are criticizing me by following her lead based research from wiki-sources are branding yourselves as too lazy to do the research, or gullible, or perhaps both.........

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen (12/4/2009 10:59:04 AM)
As an aside, wikipedia is gain ground on credibility since the institution of the new policies last year, and with more admins and bots to keep the vandalism down. If there is a problem with verification of a wiki article, there should be a notice at the top of the page. If anyone runs into an article they feel is unverified, you can report it through wiki or Cmail me the link and I will check it over and send it through if it does not meet the criteria.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen (12/4/2009 11:02:07 AM)
Before you congradulate her, you may want to do some research yourself. I am not going to get into a debate about it, but my study of the foundaing fathers, as well as other documents and letters they wrote, indicate the OP is correct on it being a Jefferson quote. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML OMG, Lucienne..... excellent bit of research. Thank you. I am embarrassed that I accepted the OP's quotes on his good faith assertion that he is a student of history. I believe he is, but even students make mistakes. Well done, Lucienne, well done. [sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=banana.gif] vincent

Underumam -> RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen (12/4/2009 11:15:19 AM)
In my opinion, it doesn't matter WHO said the words, their relevance is uncanny and spot on. People get going off on a tangent, and the real message of the thread gets pushed to the bottom. I'm not trying to be right, just drawing attention to the main issues. It's actually rather draining the way this has unfolded.......

Musicmystery -> RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen (12/4/2009 11:24:45 AM)
Well, thing is, Tom lived in an agrarian society on a land still largely unexplored and protected in part by large oceans. Banking substantially reduces the transaction costs of our economy. And we don't all grow our own food these days. The world Tom references no longer exists. Now quotes about how each time we deregulate banking abuses creep in would be more to the point. That's the topic.

mnottertail -> RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen (12/4/2009 11:26:56 AM)
Well, I really don't care who said it either, I am a happiness is a warm gun kinda guy regardless. Somebody when writing the preamble said this shit. Here: Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide, It is in vain to say that democracy is less vain, less proud, less selfish, less ambitious, or less avaricious than aristocracy or monarchy. It is not true, in fact, and nowhere appears in history, Those passions are the same in all men, under all forms of simple government, and, when unchecked, produce the same effects of fraud, violence and cruelty... ~John Quincy Adams sp

Underumam -> RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen (12/4/2009 11:51:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Well, thing is, Tom lived in an agrarian society on a land still largely unexplored and protected in part by large oceans. Banking substantially reduces the transaction costs of our economy. And we don't all grow our own food these days. The world Tom references no longer exists. Now quotes about how each time we deregulate banking abuses creep in would be more to the point. That's the topic. My observations of late are basically three-fold, and the quotes I selected are relevant to each point. The first being that when banksters gain foothold in the running of our country, the beautiful words expressed in the constitution become lip-service. But the banksters have been in the middle of this mess all along. The Sons of Liberty were really pissed about England's king demanding a share of the shipping profits, yet cared little for the fact that his navy was protecting our merchant ships from piracy on the high seas. This seems to be the REAL reason for the Rev. War inspite of what they told us, and is simlilar to the gulf conflicts suppossedly being about putting down a dictator, when all evidence points to greed of Oil and the power that comes with it. Secondly, the government is stripping us of our freedoms on a regular basis, taking away our guns, outsourcing business, and turning day to day life in the more populated regions into a nazi-like "show your papers" existence. Yet anyone who mentions this is quickly beaten down like a of commie, and dismissed as a radical. Or oftentimes, much worse. Thirdly, I've never believed that our so-called elected representatives were truly in office to serve/make our lives better. The recent "bailout" should prove once and for all that "they" do not listen to We the People, and yet most will jump right in to defend a system that is broke and no longer works for the people it was supposedly created to serve. I also remain firm in my belief that the US is NOT a democracy, but a republic. There is a big difference in the two.

Musicmystery -> RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen (12/4/2009 12:01:27 PM)
Where to start. I have to go, so I'll leave this to others. But briefly-- Paragraph one--you're talking about not strictly banking, but economic interests. Yes, those with money have always run (or at least influenced) the show. Welcome to earth. Paragraph two--unsupported rant. I share a few of these concerns, but not as you're pursuing it. Paragraph three--debatable, but so what's your suggestion? Eliminate it? You've no concept of what that would mean if that is indeed your position. The economy would essentially stop. A bigger problem is the knee-jerk reaction to deregulate that so contributed to creating the mess. Last paragraph--obviously. So what? It's a representative democracy. A pure democracy would be a ridiculous monstrosity.

vincentML -> RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen (12/4/2009 6:35:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Underumam Secondly, the government is stripping us of our freedoms on a regular basis, taking away our guns, outsourcing business, and turning day to day life in the more populated regions into a nazi-like "show your papers" existence. Yet anyone who mentions this is quickly beaten down like a of commie, and dismissed as a radical. Or oftentimes, much worse. I do not doubt your sincere concern. I would appreciate some clarification. Will you please enumerate which freedoms are being stripped from us on a regular basis? Do you have some data on guns being taken away? Will you give some examples of "nazi-like "show your papers" existence?" Thank you, Vincent

DomImus -> RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen (12/4/2009 8:11:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Underumam "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson...... As an ex soldier, I truly love this man and what he stood for. As much as I like the last quote I found this to be interesting. I hope this one is accurate: The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it.

rulemylife -> RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen (12/4/2009 9:48:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomImus As much as I like the last quote I found this to be interesting. I hope this one is accurate: The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it. I must be missing something here. Your first link debunks the quote as never being said by Jefferson. Then you post another link with the exact same quote your first link said was false, saying "I hope this one is accurate". ?

vincentML -> RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen (12/5/2009 5:57:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Before you congradulate her, you may want to do some research yourself. I am not going to get into a debate about it, but my study of the foundaing fathers, as well as other documents and letters they wrote, indicate the OP is correct on it being a Jefferson quote. Perhaps Lucienne is wrong and perhaps I offered premature congratulations on her research. Perhaps. However, I did look at the source she supplied. You enter the scene with the disclaimer that you do not wish to debate the issue. Then you offer counterpoint based upon your study of the founding fathers, and you offer no citation to support your claim. What? Are we to go in search of some cryptic "other documents and letters they wrote" to verify your counterpoint? Seems to me you have assumed an obligation to walk the walk here. I do not speak for Lucienne but i would be happy to consider your evidence, as perhaps the OP would as well. Vincent

vincentML -> RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen (12/5/2009 6:12:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Well, I really don't care who said it either, I am a happiness is a warm gun kinda guy regardless. Somebody when writing the preamble said this shit. Here: Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide, It is in vain to say that democracy is less vain, less proud, less selfish, less ambitious, or less avaricious than aristocracy or monarchy. It is not true, in fact, and nowhere appears in history, Those passions are the same in all men, under all forms of simple government, and, when unchecked, produce the same effects of fraud, violence and cruelty... ~John Quincy Adams sp He may have been correct but consider when JQA wrote these words the number of democracies in history could be counted with only the fingers of one hand and I can only guess he wrote these words after the debacle of the French Revolution and while he was in the misdst of fighting the nullification and then secessionist threats of the Slave Power. We no longer count the threat of Monarchy but the threat of Aristocracy remains. As does the potential for gun toting mob rule. Seems to me Representative Democracy with checks and balances is the best we can hope for. Vincent

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