RE: Does 50's Household conflict with M/s? (Full Version)

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Elisabella -> RE: Does 50's Household conflict with M/s? (12/1/2009 9:45:11 PM)

-FR-

I think it depends on what you mean by "50's household" - if you mean "he works outside the house and she works in the house and sometimes I get to put on cute aprons" then there could be any dynamic you want.

If you're trying to get into a 50's mindset, well there weren't many 1950's slaves who did everything their husband told them to do...50's housewives could and did say no, and sometimes when they said 'yes dear' they were really just planning how to get him to change his mind.

I think any housewife alive in the 50's would go absolutely mad if she had to obey everything her husband said.



aldompdx -> RE: Does 50's Household conflict with M/s? (12/2/2009 5:30:54 AM)

Assuming a healthy form of surrender, done with ongoing free choice from self will -- YES it can be absolutely compatible.

Surrender is never 100%. It is not a game of robot, where the controller dictates every nuanced act. E.g.,: "Answer me by -- contracting (certain) mandibular control muscles, opening your jaw 12 degrees with 16 Lbs of force, then releasing/contracting (various) tongue and throat muscles in (some complex pattern which I cannot begin to imagine) until the tongue is in shape "x", and finally cause your vocal chords to vibrate as you contract your diaphram, open your epiglottis, and exhale through your larynx." (This implies nothing about the OP, but is said generally).

The degree to which one assumes various responsibilities and makes various choices is established by mutual consent, one way or another, in EVERY relationship. For greatest success, intentionally engage in that process of mutual consent with awareness and openness.



allthatjaz -> RE: Does 50's Household conflict with M/s? (12/2/2009 6:02:14 AM)

I think it depends on what class of the 50's we mean.
My grandparents were poor working class and very much behind the middle classes. They say a woman's work was never done and I believe it. Life in general was much tougher than it is today.
I didn't live in the 50's but my grandparents never stopped living in the 40s and 50s and what I witnessed as a child was a staunchly proud and hard working woman (within the home) who had absolute respect for her husband and a man that worked long hours, came home filthy and expected a ready bath and a hot meal. The memories I have of my grandma are that of a very subservient woman but a very happy one. I was left in no doubt that my granddad was in charge but my grandmother ruled the roost.
I remember my grandmother saying things like 'Elsie Johnson at number 2 never chalks her front step. She's a lazy woman and its her poor husband I feel sorry for'. Life for her revolved around making her husband proud and the only competition in her life was not a newly polished car or a kitchen extension but letting her neighbors know that she was a good wife.
I don't see anything wrong with that and I can add many elements of her lifestyle to how I live today.



Fitznicely -> RE: Does 50's Household conflict with M/s? (12/2/2009 6:19:15 AM)

The reality of the 50's household was that the woman was completely in charge, through manipulation, hard work and the merit of being a constant presence.

I can't see many Dommes going for this, I have to say [:)]

The illusion of male control was perpetuated because of the expectations of the previous generation.

The SM vision of 50's household, where the meek mild wifey obeys her husband's every whim, keeps a perfect house and caters to his every need....well, let me say, if my girl ever had dinner waiting when I got in, with pipe, newspaper and slippers, she'd get a god almighty whipping for it! Not a nice one!



allthatjaz -> RE: Does 50's Household conflict with M/s? (12/2/2009 6:48:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fitznicely



The SM vision of 50's household, where the meek mild wifey obeys her husband's every whim, keeps a perfect house and caters to his every need....well, let me say, if my girl ever had dinner waiting when I got in, with pipe, newspaper and slippers, she'd get a god almighty whipping for it! Not a nice one!



Forget the pipe and slippers .... what about just a nice dinner?



Fitznicely -> RE: Does 50's Household conflict with M/s? (12/2/2009 6:58:54 AM)

That'd be the bit that got her punished...MY kitchen! LOL



breatheasone -> RE: Does 50's Household conflict with M/s? (12/2/2009 7:13:13 AM)

Geez i'm glad my husband doesn't mind being greeted at the end of the day, and having dinner waiting. Either that, or he's a masochist, and hasn't said anything for the last 26 years.[8|]



Fitznicely -> RE: Does 50's Household conflict with M/s? (12/2/2009 7:15:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

Geez i'm glad my husband doesn't mind being greeted at the end of the day, and having dinner waiting. Either that, or he's a masochist, and hasn't said anything for the last 26 years.[8|]


[:D] Oh, I just love to cook...I've done a 12 hour day and come home to cook a full roast dinner with all the trimmings. Ok we ate late that day, but it was fun



AnimusRex -> RE: Does 50's Household conflict with M/s? (12/2/2009 10:42:00 AM)


Kim loves greeting me with dinner fixed, the house clean, and laundry done.

Laundry especially

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbJhGgn-CSQ



Hierodule -> RE: Does 50's Household conflict with M/s? (12/2/2009 10:56:54 AM)

Elisabella,

you make a good point which is why I wrote this:

"the role of a 50s house wife (idealized/fetishized for this century version)"

The truth is that many 50's housewives were not happy. And of course, my goal in my relationships to first of all make my partner happy and to be happy myself. Of course there will be bad times there is no reason why both partners can't be generally happy within their chosen roles.

My grandmother, who raised me, was expected to get married and it was taken for granted that she would stay home and raise her family. She could have rebelled, but it would have been against everything she believed in and was expected of her. Even though she taught me how to help around the house with ironing and cooking, she always siad "Honey NEVER get married. Do something with your life don't end up like me."

She got married in 1948. So she was a real 50's housewife, and she was miserable. While I learned a lot from her, the main difference between her and I is choice. I went to college, had an equal marriage which didn't work out, and I have worked and had my own place where I lived alone. I know what its like to be independent and I know its not for me. She never had the chance to explore independence. Maybe she would have enjoyed it. I, personally, find it alienating and unsatisfying. 


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

-FR-

I think it depends on what you mean by "50's household" - if you mean "he works outside the house and she works in the house and sometimes I get to put on cute aprons" then there could be any dynamic you want.

If you're trying to get into a 50's mindset, well there weren't many 1950's slaves who did everything their husband told them to do...50's housewives could and did say no, and sometimes when they said 'yes dear' they were really just planning how to get him to change his mind.

I think any housewife alive in the 50's would go absolutely mad if she had to obey everything her husband said.



Elisabella -> RE: Does 50's Household conflict with M/s? (12/2/2009 1:22:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule

Elisabella,

you make a good point which is why I wrote this:

"the role of a 50s house wife (idealized/fetishized for this century version)"

The truth is that many 50's housewives were not happy. And of course, my goal in my relationships to first of all make my partner happy and to be happy myself. Of course there will be bad times there is no reason why both partners can't be generally happy within their chosen roles.

My grandmother, who raised me, was expected to get married and it was taken for granted that she would stay home and raise her family. She could have rebelled, but it would have been against everything she believed in and was expected of her. Even though she taught me how to help around the house with ironing and cooking, she always siad "Honey NEVER get married. Do something with your life don't end up like me."

She got married in 1948. So she was a real 50's housewife, and she was miserable. While I learned a lot from her, the main difference between her and I is choice. I went to college, had an equal marriage which didn't work out, and I have worked and had my own place where I lived alone. I know what its like to be independent and I know its not for me. She never had the chance to explore independence. Maybe she would have enjoyed it. I, personally, find it alienating and unsatisfying. 


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

-FR-

I think it depends on what you mean by "50's household" - if you mean "he works outside the house and she works in the house and sometimes I get to put on cute aprons" then there could be any dynamic you want.

If you're trying to get into a 50's mindset, well there weren't many 1950's slaves who did everything their husband told them to do...50's housewives could and did say no, and sometimes when they said 'yes dear' they were really just planning how to get him to change his mind.

I think any housewife alive in the 50's would go absolutely mad if she had to obey everything her husband said.



I'm sorry your grandmother had to experience that. That time was virtually Victorian in its idea of social expectations, I can't even imagine being expected to marry someone in the town I grew up in straight out of HS like my grandmother did (she was happy though...or at least happy enough. She never said she wasn't happy.) Not to mention the number of gays and lesbians who had to go their whole life preventing themselves from having a shot at love.

But my post wasn't to say they were miserable...it was to say they weren't M/s slaves (or, taking this post into account, if they were slaves it wasn't to their husbands) - I guess what I'm saying is most people wouldn't consider it very 'slavelike' (in the M/s sense) to think "He said we couldn't afford to go on vacation this summer, so I'm going to use a combination of childlike sulking and subtle manipulation on him until he changes his mind" or "If he won't let me get the shoes I want I'll buy a bit less food and save the extra money for a few weeks then tell him I want a cheaper pair of shoes and use the money I saved to cover the difference" - basically the average 50's housewife knew how to control her husband in at least a couple things...and more importantly she was willing to do so.

So yeah, the fetishized version, makes for a great M/s relationship. The non-fetishized version even makes for a good D/s relationship (I see a difference between M/s and D/s), I'm not working right now (won't start looking for a job til after the wedding) so right now we're doing that type of dynamic, and what makes it work is that I don't *submit* to him, rather he *exerts control* on me. We both know he's able to say no to me, he's able to enforce that no, so I'm free to use all my tricks on him knowing full well that the ones that work are just the ones he didn't have a problem with. And I'd imagine there were households like that back in the 50's too, where the husband had final say on everything even though he didn't always exercise that power.

But when I start working, I'll have my own income, I'll have more freedom and leverage, and he can't very well say "You can't buy those shoes you really love" because he won't have any way to enforce that. I'll have my own salary going into my bank, it's not reliant on what he gives me. In that case, when I start working, it will turn into a case of *me submitting* rather than *him controlling me* because I have the choice whether to listen or not.

Basically to me the difference between a 50's household dynamic and a M/s relationship is that in the M/s relationship the submissive/wife entered the relationship with the intent to submit to the man she loves, whereas the 50's wife entered the relationship with the intent to love the man she loves and be a good wife, knowing that *at times* that includes submission. But that's just me.



Hierodule -> RE: Does 50's Household conflict with M/s? (12/2/2009 1:47:10 PM)

Oh certainly, I can see that, There was probably a little more manipulation and passive aggressive behavior in actual marriages in the 50s than would be suitable for a M/s relationship. It probably came from the fact that they didn't really want to give all the authority over their lives to their husband so they took whatever little steps they could to empower themselves. One thing my grandma did was pretend to be deaf. My grandpa would tell her to do something and she would ignore him and carry on reading. I can remember hearing him in the livingroom saying "Mommy, did ya hear me?  Betty c'mon now, did ya hear me? MOMMY??!!" and then a minute later, after he gave up, she would quietly say "yes Dad, I heard you." LOL I miss them so much.



MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Does 50's Household conflict with M/s? (12/2/2009 2:52:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule


As with most things... it just depends?!!  I suspect for some, they desire little more than hole to use and one to do their assigned chores.  For others, they seek more of a partner, where the examples you'd given would be welcomed.  Given each couple (be they M/s, D/s, D/lg, or whatever) defines their dynamic in their OWN way, then so too will they define their roles and expectations.




DesFIP -> RE: Does 50's Household conflict with M/s? (12/5/2009 6:16:19 PM)

My parents being middle class, they had hired help in the 50's and 60's and onwards.
My mother enjoyed making great meals and getting kudos for it.
The dissatisfaction came from the fact that my father wasn't cut out to be a husband or father.
If she had married someone who was as devoted to her and the family as she was, I have no doubt they would have stayed married and more easily weathered the changing cultural climate.

The couple across the street were devoted to each other and their family. He took in his mother in law when she could no longer live on her own. They raised happy and successful children. And although she wasn't a great decorator or cook, she was happy in her home and all the kids were glad to hang out in her living room watching tv.



Acer49 -> RE: Does 50's Household conflict with M/s? (12/5/2009 11:45:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule

I was thinking about how the role of a 50s house wife (idealized/fetishized for this century version) might conflict with the what a lot of Masters consider to be an appropriate role for a slave. I understand that a slave's role is what ever their Master says it is. But do any of you Masters, personally, have an issue with your slave doing the duties of a 50s housewife which require some self-determination and decision making skills?

for example:

Making, and submitting to her husband, a budget for food and household items

Taking charge of, and pride in, decorating the house

Making her own schedule for chores that may only need to be done weekly, monthly, or annually,

Raising, teaching and disciplining children

Planning parties

I feel that one of the trade-offs for a housewife was that,while her husband had complete authority over her, she was in charge of the day to day workings of the house. As long as the home was clean, the husband fed, and their guests happy, He didn't bother with things like what color the tea towels should be.

Its not the 50s any more so a 50's household can be whatever you want it to be. Just as slavery is illegal, and defined by its participants. But I was wondering, does your personal idea of a 50's household conflict with your personal idea of a M/s relationship?


If I were trying to intertwine a 50's household into a M/s, there would be no problem. However If I was someone who wanted to do the opposite, there would be issues



masterlink65 -> RE: Does 50's Household conflict with M/s? (12/14/2009 9:41:50 PM)

i dont see how this would be an issue. many different people have many different answers as to what an actual M/s situation is. if it was affordable to me, i would gladly own and control a 50's house sub/slave/servant. your slave, your property is your to use as you see fit. nobody elses business or concern how you treat or use your slave



roland23 -> RE: Does 50's Household conflict with M/s? (12/15/2009 8:41:47 AM)

For me, I love elements of the 1950s household but not the whole enchilada. I like my subs to wear retro outfits and do household chores while I drink a martini and listen to Louis Prima. It's just theatre for me. I would never place work or other 1950s style restrictions on my subs.



PapaKayne -> RE: Does 50's Household conflict with M/s? (12/15/2009 8:48:11 AM)

50's household is definitely something I want to try.  I don't care how many peas are in my dinner just that you know I like peas and its ready at 7.



Huntertn -> RE: Does 50's Household conflict with M/s? (12/15/2009 4:58:44 PM)

Better a slave/sub that is happy to do what she can to help the Master's household...so let them work out what level of guidance she needs or doesn't need. Frankly, I like a sub/slave that can look at what needs done..and then just do it. I mean most subs do the shopping, and never need a word from the Master. Or in any of the day to day things every household needs...why should they? Never give an order you know they can't ..or wouldn't do!...And...Why underuse them? Its not like the adverage Master doesn't have enough on his/her Plates to do already,right?  Huntertn



GYPSYMAMBO -> RE: Does 50's Household conflict with M/s? (12/15/2009 5:12:34 PM)

OP:
Several men have approached me about being a 50's wife and I think everyone needs a wife..
 
IN my POLY home..husband #2...*d ..was my wife and the chef..laundress..gardener and more..
HE was fullfilled and happy and so was I...I also had a sub husband..
I made sure *d woudl be taken care if I died becasue he had given up his chef's job to stay home and be my wife..
 
It is a wonderful thing to have worked hard all day and be greeted by a happy wife...the home smelling of bread..and cinnamon...flowers on the table..so good..
 He contributed so much to the HARMONY  of thehome thru his selfless giving.
There was little conflict becasue we talked a lto in the home..
he knew what his responsibilites were and how the decsion making process worked
He especially liked challenges..such as a minimal budget...or ways on utilities in teh home
 
it was great...
 
and it did not conflict with our dynamics or a D-s one because my style is to support them to be the best in service possible using thier strengths areas to to build on
and it was his deep desire to do so.
 
for fun..I got 50's furniture..the tea towels aprons..curtains..the melamine table..etc..it added to the home..and the ambiance
and oh.... those clothes pinssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

 
 
 
GM
 
 



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