RE: Government must exist

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Underumam -> RE: Government must exist (12/3/2009 5:59:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Sorry but you are talking about an effect being a cause. If the laws were maintain along the lines of how the constitution is written, then large corps and the extremely wealthy would not have as great an advantage in politics. The only way to effectily adminster your idea is for the government (people) to seize all wealth, and disburse it equally. We are all born with our lot in life, and it is up to our ability and merit on whether we improve it. False. The immoral (some argue unconstitutional) concentration of wealth due to money creation being in the hands of the elite is the cause of the many problematic symptoms we see today. In my opinion, it is up to our ability and merit to replace the existing system with an equitable and moral system that equally benefits all. Many complain, but few are willing to think, let alone step out of the box. eggsactly.

Brain -> RE: Government must exist (12/3/2009 8:23:40 PM)
If the American people want good government they need to stop electing corrupt politicians; it's that simple. For instance, the people of Connecticut made a huge mistake electing Joe Lieberman. If they had followed the situation closely they could have foreseen Lieberman's present behavior. I knew Connecticut made a mistake electing Lieberman but they didn't pay careful attention to how he has changed recently, they thought they were getting the old Joe Lieberman. And they would have known better and elected Ned Lamont but that's what happens when you think, 'they're all the same it doesn't matter who you vote for.' There is nothing wrong with government when voters elect qualified and conscientious politicians. I think people need to forget about ideology and start being pragmatic and do what works. Do what gets results to make life better for everyone. And to think that weasel almost became vice president of the United States.

popeye1250 -> RE: Government must exist (12/3/2009 9:55:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brain If the American people want good government they need to stop electing corrupt politicians; it's that simple. For instance, the people of Connecticut made a huge mistake electing Joe Lieberman. If they had followed the situation closely they could have foreseen Lieberman's present behavior. I knew Connecticut made a mistake electing Lieberman but they didn't pay careful attention to how he has changed recently, they thought they were getting the old Joe Lieberman. And they would have known better and elected Ned Lamont but that's what happens when you think, 'they're all the same it doesn't matter who you vote for.' There is nothing wrong with government when voters elect qualified and conscientious politicians. I think people need to forget about ideology and start being pragmatic and do what works. Do what gets results to make life better for everyone. And to think that weasel almost became vice president of the United States. Brain, LOL, Connecticut got a "Twofer" in that POS Christopher Dodd, Kennedy's old drinking buddy! I wonder how that "special relationship" is working out with Countrywide Home Mortgages (Now Bank of America) and the "very special terms" he got on a mortgage? Anything about that lately or is it still being "investigated?" He's predicted to be given the boot in Nov of 2010!

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Government must exist (12/3/2009 10:01:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subfever False. The immoral (some argue unconstitutional) concentration of wealth due to money creation being in the hands of the elite is the cause of the many problematic symptoms we see today. No they are the symptoms. The cause is the people allowing our servants (politicians) to create laws that slant the wealth to those that already have it, allowing an entity the same rights as an individual, and allowing what was once our servants to now serve a different Master (large corporations). If this had never been allowed by the people, you would not have as large a problem. The problem you see is the effect, not the multiple causes. quote: In my opinion, it is up to our ability and merit to replace the existing system with an equitable and moral system that equally benefits all. You contradict yourself when you say ability and merit, and then equally benefits all. Those with more drive, more intelligence and more charisma, will always become more wealthy. Redistribute all of the money today, and in a few decades the money will rise to a top again. Then what do we complain about? That some people are smarter in business, politics, more inventive, work harder, more ruthless, or what? quote: Many complain, but few are willing to think, let alone step out of the box. I will not disagree with this but if someone wants a better life, than can get it. Sorry but I am not going to feel that sorry for people. I came from government housing and public schools, to being self taught and owning my own business. It is not difficult, and my business is actually helping people start theirs. The one's that fail do so because too many people believe that you can get something for nothing. Which you seem to propose that someone should get equally as much as I, even though I may work twice as hard, twice as much, and be twice as smart. That is where your proposal fails.

Moonhead -> RE: Government must exist (12/4/2009 5:51:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou quote: libertarian quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Probably true. You won't get very far arguing that with a libertarian, though. Most libertarians are for minimal government, sure there are extremists just like every other political philosophy, however, most of those call themselves anarchists and don't even use the term libertarian. Anyway, your statement is ignorant at best. edited to add. Even I concede some amount of government in some form is necessary. Always has and always will. The debate is over the size of the government at least for 99% of the population. Hang on: you're describing a political philosophy that's (mostly) thoroughly anti capitalist and based on the idea of voluntary cooperation as the radical wing of a political philosophy that's based on removing all government checks on the flow of free enterprise, and I'm the one that's ignorant?

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Government must exist (12/4/2009 8:15:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou quote: libertarian quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Probably true. You won't get very far arguing that with a libertarian, though. Most libertarians are for minimal government, sure there are extremists just like every other political philosophy, however, most of those call themselves anarchists and don't even use the term libertarian. Anyway, your statement is ignorant at best. edited to add. Even I concede some amount of government in some form is necessary. Always has and always will. The debate is over the size of the government at least for 99% of the population. Hang on: you're describing a political philosophy that's (mostly) thoroughly anti capitalist and based on the idea of voluntary cooperation as the radical wing of a political philosophy that's based on removing all government checks on the flow of free enterprise, and I'm the one that's ignorant? You were arguing that libertarians are against a government. Reference your response to the OP. To where any searching on libertarianism would easily show that view is not a required view held by libertarians. I just did a search and the first entry in google for the libertarian party says minimal government in the title. The wikipedia entry states that libertarian views range from minimal government all the way to no government. So, saying a libertarian is against a government is ignorant. Some may be against all government, though to this day I've not met one. Well, outside of blabbering on the internet.

mnottertail -> RE: Government must exist (12/4/2009 8:27:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou quote: libertarian quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Probably true. You won't get very far arguing that with a libertarian, though. Most libertarians are for minimal government, sure there are extremists just like every other political philosophy, however, most of those call themselves anarchists and don't even use the term libertarian. Anyway, your statement is ignorant at best. edited to add. Even I concede some amount of government in some form is necessary. Always has and always will. The debate is over the size of the government at least for 99% of the population. Hang on: you're describing a political philosophy that's (mostly) thoroughly anti capitalist and based on the idea of voluntary cooperation as the radical wing of a political philosophy that's based on removing all government checks on the flow of free enterprise, and I'm the one that's ignorant? Arf a mo, guv. I might could go for this, provided enterprise is not all his. That is, if you fuck me in a business deal, let's say, and I can cakk you without let nor hindrance.....I'd be in. But if it is a lassize faire concept and I simply have to take the fucking, 'cause it is perceived as good for my country...........well, not today............ Ron

Moonhead -> RE: Government must exist (12/4/2009 9:21:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou So, saying a libertarian is against a government is ignorant. Some may be against all government, though to this day I've not met one. Well, outside of blabbering on the internet. Sorry, but Libertarians are against government, it's just that most of them are willing to compromise on demanding as little government as possible, instead of insisting it all be abolished. That the real world getting in the way of your values thing. And you haven't addressed my other point: how are anarchists (who've been around since the middle of the nineteenth century and are -I repeat- thoroughly anticapitalist) the lunatic fringe of a group whose modern meaning was pretty much invented in the '40s by people who'd read too much Ayn Rand? The term hasn't been a synonymn for "anarchist" for a long time now.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Government must exist (12/4/2009 10:31:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou So, saying a libertarian is against a government is ignorant. Some may be against all government, though to this day I've not met one. Well, outside of blabbering on the internet. Sorry, but Libertarians are against government, it's just that most of them are willing to compromise on demanding as little government as possible, instead of insisting it all be abolished. That the real world getting in the way of your values thing. And you haven't addressed my other point: how are anarchists (who've been around since the middle of the nineteenth century and are -I repeat- thoroughly anticapitalist) the lunatic fringe of a group whose modern meaning was pretty much invented in the '40s by people who'd read too much Ayn Rand? The term hasn't been a synonymn for "anarchist" for a long time now. Wow. another doozie of misstatements. No, libertarians are not against all government and just willing to compromise, you are confused with anarchists. And you might want to discuss whether anarchists are anti-capitalist with...the anarcho-capitalists!

Musicmystery -> RE: Government must exist (12/4/2009 10:38:29 AM)
I think he's just confusing Libertarian as a philosophical ideal with Libertarian as a political party. As for anarchists, he's just woefully ignorant of history. I'd at least go back to McKinley's assassination, not to mention 19th century struggles among labor/management/police.

rulemylife -> RE: Government must exist (12/4/2009 11:23:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery As for anarchists, he's just woefully ignorant of history. I'd at least go back to McKinley's assassination, not to mention 19th century struggles among labor/management/police. While I really don't want to get involved in this discussion, didn't he say in his post exactly what you just said? quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead And you haven't addressed my other point: how are anarchists (who've been around since the middle of the nineteenth century ......

ShadowSide -> RE: Government must exist (12/4/2009 11:29:26 AM)
We can live without this kind. it's been done before and can happen again...well to certain groups of people. Other need it for their very survival. "Progress."..HA!!!

Musicmystery -> RE: Government must exist (12/4/2009 11:43:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery As for anarchists, he's just woefully ignorant of history. I'd at least go back to McKinley's assassination, not to mention 19th century struggles among labor/management/police. While I really don't want to get involved in this discussion, didn't he say in his post exactly what you just said? quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead And you haven't addressed my other point: how are anarchists (who've been around since the middle of the nineteenth century ...... He went on to say: quote: the lunatic fringe of a group whose modern meaning was pretty much invented in the '40s by people who'd read too much Ayn Rand? The term hasn't been a synonymn for "anarchist" for a long time now.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Government must exist (12/4/2009 12:03:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery As for anarchists, he's just woefully ignorant of history. I'd at least go back to McKinley's assassination, not to mention 19th century struggles among labor/management/police. While I really don't want to get involved in this discussion, didn't he say in his post exactly what you just said? quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead And you haven't addressed my other point: how are anarchists (who've been around since the middle of the nineteenth century ...... He went on to say: quote: the lunatic fringe of a group whose modern meaning was pretty much invented in the '40s by people who'd read too much Ayn Rand? The term hasn't been a synonymn for "anarchist" for a long time now. and goes on to claim that anarchists are "anti-capitalist" when there is an entire political and economic theory built around anarcho-capitalism.

popeye1250 -> RE: Government must exist (12/4/2009 12:57:06 PM)
No, no, no, you're all wrong, the Anarchists have all "converted" to the "Global Warming Religion." It's "their way" or the highway. They think they're, "The Enlightened Ones" now.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Government must exist (12/4/2009 1:02:25 PM)
von Mises would roll over in his non-union built coffin in his non-union built grave if he could hear the words "cap and trade"

mnottertail -> RE: Government must exist (12/4/2009 1:03:44 PM)
And no one would be any the wiser what he did beneath the dirt. Sad, perhaps, but true. Ron

Musicmystery -> RE: Government must exist (12/4/2009 1:09:31 PM)
What's done once dead, stays dead?

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Government must exist (12/4/2009 6:55:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou So, saying a libertarian is against a government is ignorant. Some may be against all government, though to this day I've not met one. Well, outside of blabbering on the internet. Sorry, but Libertarians are against government, it's just that most of them are willing to compromise on demanding as little government as possible, instead of insisting it all be abolished. That the real world getting in the way of your values thing. And you haven't addressed my other point: how are anarchists (who've been around since the middle of the nineteenth century and are -I repeat- thoroughly anticapitalist) the lunatic fringe of a group whose modern meaning was pretty much invented in the '40s by people who'd read too much Ayn Rand? The term hasn't been a synonymn for "anarchist" for a long time now. Here we go, in the modern political definition of libertarianism (we are in the politics section), libertarian does not require one to be against all government. FACT.,.. NO DEBATE. As far as the anarchy thing, I don't care on that point, as it doesn't relate to my initial objection. My guess now, is that you are using a definition other than the most common one applied to the term. If that is indeed the case, it is not my obligation to jump in line with your unspecified usage. The assumption is that common usage is the default unless otherwise stated.

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