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RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 5:59:28 PM   
Underumam


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Joined: 12/18/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Sorry but you are talking about an effect being a cause. If the laws were maintain along the lines of how the constitution is written, then large corps and the extremely wealthy would not have as great an advantage in politics. The only way to effectily adminster your idea is for the government (people) to seize all wealth, and disburse it equally. We are all born with our lot in life, and it is up to our ability and merit on whether we improve it.


False.

The immoral (some argue unconstitutional) concentration of wealth due to money creation being in the hands of the elite is the cause of the many problematic symptoms we see today.

In my opinion, it is up to our ability and merit to replace the existing system with an equitable and moral system that equally benefits all.

Many complain, but few are willing to think, let alone step out of the box.




eggsactly.

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 8:23:40 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		If the American people want good government they need to stop electing corrupt politicians; it's that simple. For instance, the people of Connecticut made a huge mistake electing Joe Lieberman. If they had followed the situation closely they could have foreseen Lieberman's present behavior. I knew Connecticut made a mistake electing Lieberman but they didn't pay careful attention to how he has changed recently, they thought they were getting the old Joe Lieberman. And they would have known better and elected Ned Lamont but that's what happens when you think, 'they're all the same it doesn't matter who you vote for.'

There is nothing wrong with government when voters elect qualified and conscientious politicians.
I think people need to forget about ideology and start being pragmatic and do what works. Do what gets results to make life better for everyone. And to think that weasel almost became vice president of the United States.

(in reply to couldbemage)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 9:55:34 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

If the American people want good government they need to stop electing corrupt politicians; it's that simple. For instance, the people of Connecticut made a huge mistake electing Joe Lieberman. If they had followed the situation closely they could have foreseen Lieberman's present behavior. I knew Connecticut made a mistake electing Lieberman but they didn't pay careful attention to how he has changed recently, they thought they were getting the old Joe Lieberman. And they would have known better and elected Ned Lamont but that's what happens when you think, 'they're all the same it doesn't matter who you vote for.'

There is nothing wrong with government when voters elect qualified and conscientious politicians.
I think people need to forget about ideology and start being pragmatic and do what works. Do what gets results to make life better for everyone. And to think that weasel almost became vice president of the United States.



Brain, LOL, Connecticut got a "Twofer" in that POS Christopher Dodd, Kennedy's old drinking buddy!
I wonder how that "special relationship" is working out with Countrywide Home Mortgages (Now Bank of America) and the "very special terms" he got on a mortgage? Anything about that lately or is it still being "investigated?"
He's predicted to be given the boot in Nov of 2010!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 12/3/2009 9:57:08 PM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 10:01:07 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

False.

The immoral (some argue unconstitutional) concentration of wealth due to money creation being in the hands of the elite is the cause of the many problematic symptoms we see today.


No they are the symptoms. The cause is the people allowing our servants (politicians) to create laws that slant the wealth to those that already have it, allowing an entity the same rights as an individual, and allowing what was once our servants to now serve a different Master (large corporations). If this had never been allowed by the people, you would not have as large a problem. The problem you see is the effect, not the multiple causes.

quote:


In my opinion, it is up to our ability and merit to replace the existing system with an equitable and moral system that equally benefits all.


You contradict yourself when you say ability and merit, and then equally benefits all. Those with more drive, more intelligence and more charisma, will always become more wealthy. Redistribute all of the money today, and in a few decades the money will rise to a top again. Then what do we complain about? That some people are smarter in business, politics, more inventive, work harder, more ruthless, or what?

quote:


Many complain, but few are willing to think, let alone step out of the box.


I will not disagree with this but if someone wants a better life, than can get it. Sorry but I am not going to feel that sorry for people. I came from government housing and public schools, to being self taught and owning my own business. It is not difficult, and my business is actually helping people start theirs. The one's that fail do so because too many people believe that you can get something for nothing. Which you seem to propose that someone should get equally as much as I, even though I may work twice as hard, twice as much, and be twice as smart.

That is where your proposal fails.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Government must exist - 12/4/2009 5:51:35 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

quote:

libertarian
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Probably true. You won't get very far arguing that with a libertarian, though.


Most libertarians are for minimal government, sure there are extremists just like every other political philosophy, however, most of those call themselves anarchists and don't even use the term libertarian.

Anyway, your statement is ignorant at best.

edited to add. Even I concede some amount of government in some form is necessary. Always has and always will. The debate is over the size of the government at least for 99% of the population.


Hang on: you're describing a political philosophy that's (mostly) thoroughly anti capitalist and based on the idea of voluntary cooperation as the radical wing of a political philosophy that's based on removing all government checks on the flow of free enterprise, and I'm the one that's ignorant?

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(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Government must exist - 12/4/2009 8:15:40 AM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

quote:

libertarian
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Probably true. You won't get very far arguing that with a libertarian, though.


Most libertarians are for minimal government, sure there are extremists just like every other political philosophy, however, most of those call themselves anarchists and don't even use the term libertarian.

Anyway, your statement is ignorant at best.

edited to add. Even I concede some amount of government in some form is necessary. Always has and always will. The debate is over the size of the government at least for 99% of the population.


Hang on: you're describing a political philosophy that's (mostly) thoroughly anti capitalist and based on the idea of voluntary cooperation as the radical wing of a political philosophy that's based on removing all government checks on the flow of free enterprise, and I'm the one that's ignorant?


You were arguing that libertarians are against a government. Reference your response to the OP.

To where any searching on libertarianism would easily show that view is not a required view held by libertarians. I just did a search and the first entry in google for the libertarian party says minimal government in the title. The wikipedia entry states that libertarian views range from minimal government all the way to no government.

So, saying a libertarian is against a government is ignorant. Some may be against all government, though to this day I've not met one. Well, outside of blabbering on the internet.




(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Government must exist - 12/4/2009 8:27:30 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

quote:

libertarian
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Probably true. You won't get very far arguing that with a libertarian, though.


Most libertarians are for minimal government, sure there are extremists just like every other political philosophy, however, most of those call themselves anarchists and don't even use the term libertarian.

Anyway, your statement is ignorant at best.

edited to add. Even I concede some amount of government in some form is necessary. Always has and always will. The debate is over the size of the government at least for 99% of the population.


Hang on: you're describing a political philosophy that's (mostly) thoroughly anti capitalist and based on the idea of voluntary cooperation as the radical wing of a political philosophy that's based on removing all government checks on the flow of free enterprise, and I'm the one that's ignorant?



Arf a mo, guv. I might could go for this, provided enterprise is not all his. That is, if you fuck me in a business deal, let's say, and I can cakk you without let nor hindrance.....I'd be in. But if it is a lassize faire concept and I simply have to take the fucking, 'cause it is perceived as good for my country...........well, not today............

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Government must exist - 12/4/2009 9:21:12 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
So, saying a libertarian is against a government is ignorant. Some may be against all government, though to this day I've not met one. Well, outside of blabbering on the internet.


Sorry, but Libertarians are against government, it's just that most of them are willing to compromise on demanding as little government as possible, instead of insisting it all be abolished. That the real world getting in the way of your values thing.
And you haven't addressed my other point: how are anarchists (who've been around since the middle of the nineteenth century and are -I repeat- thoroughly anticapitalist) the lunatic fringe of a group whose modern meaning was pretty much invented in the '40s by people who'd read too much Ayn Rand? The term hasn't been a synonymn for "anarchist" for a long time now.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Government must exist - 12/4/2009 10:31:56 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
So, saying a libertarian is against a government is ignorant. Some may be against all government, though to this day I've not met one. Well, outside of blabbering on the internet.


Sorry, but Libertarians are against government, it's just that most of them are willing to compromise on demanding as little government as possible, instead of insisting it all be abolished. That the real world getting in the way of your values thing.
And you haven't addressed my other point: how are anarchists (who've been around since the middle of the nineteenth century and are -I repeat- thoroughly anticapitalist) the lunatic fringe of a group whose modern meaning was pretty much invented in the '40s by people who'd read too much Ayn Rand? The term hasn't been a synonymn for "anarchist" for a long time now.


Wow. another doozie of misstatements. No, libertarians are not against all government and just willing to compromise, you are confused with anarchists. And you might want to discuss whether anarchists are anti-capitalist with...the anarcho-capitalists!

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Government must exist - 12/4/2009 10:38:29 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		I think he's just confusing Libertarian as a philosophical ideal with Libertarian as a political party.

As for anarchists, he's just woefully ignorant of history. I'd at least go back to McKinley's assassination, not to mention 19th century struggles among labor/management/police.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Government must exist - 12/4/2009 11:23:32 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

As for anarchists, he's just woefully ignorant of history. I'd at least go back to McKinley's assassination, not to mention 19th century struggles among labor/management/police.


While I really don't want to get involved in this discussion, didn't he say in his post exactly what you just said?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

And you haven't addressed my other point: how are anarchists (who've been around since the middle of the nineteenth century ......


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Government must exist - 12/4/2009 11:29:26 AM   
ShadowSide


Posts: 32
Joined: 8/21/2009
Status: offline 		We can live without this kind. it's been done before and can happen again...well to certain groups of people. Other need it for their very survival. "Progress."..HA!!!

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Government must exist - 12/4/2009 11:43:32 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

As for anarchists, he's just woefully ignorant of history. I'd at least go back to McKinley's assassination, not to mention 19th century struggles among labor/management/police.


While I really don't want to get involved in this discussion, didn't he say in his post exactly what you just said?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

And you haven't addressed my other point: how are anarchists (who've been around since the middle of the nineteenth century ......




He went on to say:

quote:

the lunatic fringe of a group whose modern meaning was pretty much invented in the '40s by people who'd read too much Ayn Rand? The term hasn't been a synonymn for "anarchist" for a long time now.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Government must exist - 12/4/2009 12:03:37 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

As for anarchists, he's just woefully ignorant of history. I'd at least go back to McKinley's assassination, not to mention 19th century struggles among labor/management/police.


While I really don't want to get involved in this discussion, didn't he say in his post exactly what you just said?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

And you haven't addressed my other point: how are anarchists (who've been around since the middle of the nineteenth century ......




He went on to say:

quote:

the lunatic fringe of a group whose modern meaning was pretty much invented in the '40s by people who'd read too much Ayn Rand? The term hasn't been a synonymn for "anarchist" for a long time now.



and goes on to claim that anarchists are "anti-capitalist" when there is an entire political and economic theory built around anarcho-capitalism.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Government must exist - 12/4/2009 12:57:06 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		No, no, no, you're all wrong, the Anarchists have all "converted" to the "Global Warming Religion."
It's "their way" or the highway.
They think they're, "The Enlightened Ones" now.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Government must exist - 12/4/2009 1:02:25 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		von Mises would roll over in his non-union built coffin in his non-union built grave if he could hear the words "cap and trade"

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Government must exist - 12/4/2009 1:03:44 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		And no one would be any the wiser what he did beneath the dirt.

Sad, perhaps, but true.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Government must exist - 12/4/2009 1:09:31 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		What's done once dead, stays dead?

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Government must exist - 12/4/2009 6:55:07 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
So, saying a libertarian is against a government is ignorant. Some may be against all government, though to this day I've not met one. Well, outside of blabbering on the internet.


Sorry, but Libertarians are against government, it's just that most of them are willing to compromise on demanding as little government as possible, instead of insisting it all be abolished. That the real world getting in the way of your values thing.
And you haven't addressed my other point: how are anarchists (who've been around since the middle of the nineteenth century and are -I repeat- thoroughly anticapitalist) the lunatic fringe of a group whose modern meaning was pretty much invented in the '40s by people who'd read too much Ayn Rand? The term hasn't been a synonymn for "anarchist" for a long time now.

Here we go, in the modern political definition of libertarianism (we are in the politics section), libertarian does not require one to be against all government. FACT.,.. NO DEBATE.

As far as the anarchy thing, I don't care on that point, as it doesn't relate to my initial objection. 


My guess now, is that you are using a definition other than the most common one applied to the term. If that is indeed the case, it is not my obligation to jump in line with your unspecified usage. The assumption is that common usage is the default unless otherwise stated.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 39
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