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Government - 12/4/2009 8:16:42 AM   
cpK69


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Status: offline 		What would a 'good' government govern?

Kim

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RE: Government - 12/4/2009 8:26:27 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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Status: offline 		elements of the common good that have a significant free rider problem.

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RE: Government - 12/4/2009 8:40:48 AM   
Musicmystery


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RE: Government - 12/4/2009 8:45:47 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

No attention to negative externalities?


negative externalities are a subset of the free rider problem, which is more general than just getting services for free, it is receiving economic benefit at the expense of others. Eg a polluter is free riding on the common good because it isn't sharing in the cost of the pollution to the same extent as the general population.

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RE: Government - 12/4/2009 8:51:49 AM   
Anarrus


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Status: offline 		In theory, as little as possible.
However, it ain't all that simple when human nature enters into the equation.
Simplistic though it seems, I was always taught that regulations (governing) come into existence when people fail to do that which they should do...in other words what's morally and ethically in the best interest of all in a society.. But defining what's morally and ethically of "best interest" is a whole other ball of wax too.

I like this saying a lot... "do as you will, the swords of others will set your limits". Metaphorically it says a whole lot.

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RE: Government - 12/4/2009 8:55:42 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus

In theory, as little as possible.
However, it ain't all that simple when human nature enters into the equation.
Simplistic though it seems, I was always taught that regulations (governing) come into existence when people fail to do that which they should do...in other words what's morally and ethically in the best interest of all in a society.. But defining what's morally and ethically of "best interest" is a whole other ball of wax too.

I like this saying a lot... "do as you will, the swords of others will set your limits". Metaphorically it says a whole lot.


Let us not forget the need to protect minorities from the tryanny of majorities.

vincent

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RE: Government - 12/4/2009 9:09:42 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69
What would a 'good' government govern?
Kim


"Good" people.

Maybe the reason there isn't an example of "good government" is that such people don't exist in a majority, or even in a substantial minority.

Ideally a government would establish and manage a integrated social and economic matrix that ultimately makes as much government bureaucracy and government provided services obsolete.

Pragmatically? Establishing and enforcing laws and regulations that don't make all people equal, but give all people equal access to opportunity. Reducing the resulting governing bureaucracy down to managing the 'exceptions'. Exceptions addressing individuals, industries, and other sovereign governments who don't follow the rules, or if the exception is another sovereign nation, apply reciprocity of policy and procedures in dealing with that that country. Not necessary to make war against them, which would indicate failure; but to apply 'exceptional' regulations, tariffs, and restrictions, equal to those applied to the country.

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RE: Government - 12/4/2009 9:14:53 AM   
Termyn8or


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vince, I think that sums up the argument of the founding Fathers that democracy doesn't work (ala resolutions in CA) and that a republic would be the way to go.

Merc, what you said would end free trade ! Might start FAIR trade, but it would be the end of free trade.

T

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RE: Government - 12/4/2009 10:01:26 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Let us not forget the need to protect minorities from the tryanny of majorities.

vincent


Unfortunately it is impossible under any form of government to eliminate "tyrrany". However, in our society we are closer to a tyrrany of the minority, a la Olson

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 12/4/2009 10:02:15 AM >

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RE: Government - 12/4/2009 10:24:53 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		The difficulties, of course, before we even get to "bad" people, are that well-meaning people aren't going to agree about which elements of the common good are most important.

Governance is making choices. In college, and again in early adulthood, when I shared large rented houses with my peers, I often didn't get my way, even among a group of 5-6 people. And the same was true for them. We could see, however, that we did at least have a part in the decision-making process.

When you have millions of people, decisions still need to be made, and people often aren't going to like the outcome. It doesn't mean government isn't serving their interests necessarily, however--it just means it can be pretty hard to see that your voice is still there.

The alternative is to be smaller and weaker. To be sure, that has its appeal, but it's absolutely still a trade-off.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 12/4/2009 10:25:57 AM >

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RE: Government - 12/4/2009 12:03:04 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

What would a 'good' government govern?

Kim



Well - if the objective of politics is social harmony - then the means has to be to promote economic prosperity - which to me is acting as a referee here and there to encourage investment in grass roots society.

For me that's the focus for investment - not a big army or the like - but lending a hand so that everyone contributes to the nation's prosperity.

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RE: Government - 12/4/2009 12:50:56 PM   
Marc2b


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RE: Government - 12/4/2009 6:11:52 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Let us not forget the need to protect minorities from the tryanny of majorities.

vincent


Unfortunately it is impossible under any form of government to eliminate "tyrrany". However, in our society we are closer to a tyrrany of the minority, a la Olson


I don't understand your reference, Will. Please explain it. thanks.

Vincent

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Government - 12/4/2009 6:22:06 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69
What would a 'good' government govern?
Kim


A government would govern everything in the same way the size of a pipe governs the rate of flow.

People (conservatives) put the negative 'controlling' connotation on government but the reality is government is measured by 'how', 'where' and 'if' it sees a need to regulate. Meaning it could equally do nothing in certain areas (realising there is no need for regulation) and be considered a good government in that area by not interfering.

Thus a good government governs everything with an exacting measure of how much control it must impose over that area. To govern is nature as everything is governed by some leading dimension or other.


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