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RE: I guess Obama doesnt care what other nations think - 12/4/2009 5:23:13 PM   
popeye1250


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Gee, I wonder if they would have said that in 1945 when American and British planes were bombing Berlin hoping that they'd snuff Hitler?

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: I guess Obama doesnt care what other nations think - 12/4/2009 5:28:15 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

as long as it suits his agenda.



NEWSFLASH!!!

The president of the United States of America carries out the foreign policy of the United States of America, not of Amnesty International. WHAT A FUCKING SURPRISE!

Personally, I wish AI ruled over all of us fuckers, but there you have it. JMHO  .
WOW kittin,when I saw you had posted....I wondered,quite naturally how you would weigh in on this....imagine my surprise when you came down as a Hawk.
Well as close to a hawk as I imagine you will ever be.....lol.Not that I disagree with what you said...just surprised you said it.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to kittinSol)
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RE: I guess Obama doesnt care what other nations think - 12/4/2009 5:39:27 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Gee, I wonder if they would have said that in 1945 when American and British planes were bombing Berlin hoping that they'd snuff Hitler?

"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace."
General Sherman to the Mayor and councilman of Atlanta.....his "war is hell" letter.
Popeye you hit the nail on the head....Drones are just another progression of war...and as Sherman said war is indeed hell.Anyone driven to fight a war must as a consequense persecute that war to the swiftest and surest conclusion that means using all means necessary.Conventional weapons are conventional weapons their delivery system changes them not a whit.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: I guess Obama doesnt care what other nations think - 12/4/2009 7:02:44 PM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace."
General Sherman to the Mayor and councilman of Atlanta.....his "war is hell" letter.
Anyone driven to fight a war must as a consequense persecute that war to the swiftest and surest conclusion that means using all means necessary.


I don't quarrel with the sentiments here; war is by definition filled with atrocity. However, before we all start salivating over the red-blooded Rambo fantasies, lets keep in mind that "war is hell" is also the concept behind flying a couple jetliners into high rise buildings, or strolling into a crowded marketplace with a vest filled with explosives.

I am NOT making a moral equivalency; killing people to defend against an agressive government, is morally superior to invading without cause; But we should at least acknowledge that our humanity is no greater than theirs.



(in reply to slvemike4u)
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RE: I guess Obama doesnt care what other nations think - 12/4/2009 7:25:04 PM   
Musicmystery


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Ya know, it's just hard to even want to care about talking to you guys when the basic idea is...

Monday: Obama inhales. Doesn't he realize it's important for people to exhale?
Tuesday: Obama exhales. What an idiot! People have to inhale, or they'll die!
Wednesday: Obama's eyelids blink. Geez. I thought this guy was supposed to be watching the nation?
Thursday: Obama doesn't blink. God! The ego on this guy! I wonder how much taxpayers are paying for eyedrops?
Friday: Why is he kowtowing to other nations?
Saturday: He just doesn't care what other nations think!
Sunday: In depth analysis of the week in review. He went and sent troops to Afghanistan like he's been saying since the campaign--I'm shocked at this sudden news!

Plenty of policy issues to debate. And I like to discuss these with people who bring different views.

But when it's just a succession of silly slams, it's just, well--silly.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: I guess Obama doesnt care what other nations think - 12/4/2009 7:28:42 PM   
slvemike4u


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Sorry Animus I can't accept that argument...the legitimate targeting of beligerants might and in fact often leads to death and injury to non beligerants...collateral damage.This is ,of course,to be regretted and lamented.The purposeful targeting of civilian,or so called soft targets,with the sole intention of sowing terror is not in the same discssion...and is actally an insult to professional slodiers whose job,redced to its most basic,is to kill the enemy.....beligerants.
I realise you included a disclaimer but I don't think it covered it.Using sperior technology in the rosection of legitimate war time goals....has nothing in common with terrorism aimed solely at soft ,civilian targets!

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: I guess Obama doesnt care what other nations think - 12/5/2009 2:19:02 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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A bomb went off at a funeral one day. Nobody there cared what the bombs intentions were. Bombs do not have intentions, they just go boom.

Now what is that difference again?

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to slvemike4u)
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RE: I guess Obama doesnt care what other nations think - 12/5/2009 3:25:02 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Sorry Animus I can't accept that argument...the legitimate targeting of beligerants might and in fact often leads to death and injury to non beligerants...collateral damage.This is ,of course,to be regretted and lamented.The purposeful targeting of civilian,or so called soft targets,with the sole intention of sowing terror is not in the same discssion...and is actally an insult to professional slodiers whose job,redced to its most basic,is to kill the enemy.....beligerants.
I realise you included a disclaimer but I don't think it covered it.Using sperior technology in the rosection of legitimate war time goals....has nothing in common with terrorism aimed solely at soft ,civilian targets!


At the risk of being accused of defending terrorism, I think you are overlooking some serious considerations here.

Imagine yourself to feel attacked by an enemy that outnumbers you thousands to one. They have an overwhelming superiority in personnel, equipment and every material needed to wage war or resist occupation. In that case, any conventional warfare becomes not only suicide but suicide that will accomplish nothing. For such people, terrorism IS the pursuit of their goals given the technology and resources available.

The selection of soft targets offers a range of strong results against the enemy. Just look at the results of the 9/11 attack. At the cost of a handful of operatives, a symbol of vulnerability was established, the United States government was altered to become more totalitarian, and we became embroiled in not one but two wars that has done untold damage to our economy. Contrast this with the reaction possible had the same number of operatives with the same amount of resources had attempted an attack on any military target.

It is also important to remember that those who do this do not see themselves as 'terrorists", or if they do, consider that not to be a bad term. There was a line in the play 1776 that comes to mind. "Revolution is always legal in the first person, as in 'our revolution' it's only in the third person, 'their revolution' that it becomes illegal." Likewise, for those who are victims or disagree with those doing these things, these people are terrorists. To those who agree with their cause, they are "freedom fighters"

This is why, no matter how much we spend on fighting terrorism, we will never eradicate the willingness of some people to use it as a tactic. The only defense is defense...to do all we can to prevent these attacks from being successful.


< Message edited by SpinnerofTales -- 12/5/2009 3:26:38 PM >

(in reply to slvemike4u)
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RE: I guess Obama doesnt care what other nations think - 12/5/2009 3:33:44 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

as long as it suits his agenda.



NEWSFLASH!!!

The president of the United States of America carries out the foreign policy of the United States of America, not of Amnesty International.

 .



Could have fooled me.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: I guess Obama doesnt care what other nations think - 12/5/2009 3:39:04 PM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
The purposeful targeting of civilian,or so called soft targets,with the sole intention of sowing terror is not in the same discssion...


Actually, I agree with you; targeting military forces is morally superior to targeting civilians.

But the reason I flagged the Sherman quote was that making the distinction between collateral damage and deliberate damage is very convenient for us.
We have the upper hand militarily- Al Quaida can't do any damage to our military machine. Even if they had crashed 4 jetliners into American military bases, it would have done almost zero damage to the country's military power.

They chose civilian targets- the Twin Towers- based on exactly the same cold blooded rationale that Sherman had; that there is no morality in warfare. Killing 2,000 civilians does far more damage to America's political power than killing 20,000 American soldiers.
Terrorism is the "shock and awe" of those who have very little military power.

The "war is hell" tough guy approach works both ways- if American soldiers at military bases are fair game:
What about the rail lines and roadways that supply them?
The hospitals that heal the wounded soldiers?
The drug labs that make the penicillin?
The investment banks like Lehman brothers who are housed in the Twin Towers that finance the drug labs that make the penicillin that heal the soldiers that fight the war?

In this view, the thousands of civilians in the twin Towers were "collateral damage"- No different than the civilians in the mud hut that get blown up by a Predator drone.

You wrote that "Anyone driven to fight a war must as a consequense persecute that war to the swiftest and surest conclusion that means using all means necessary"

To which Sherman and Osama Bin Ladin would add- That's exactly what we are doing!

< Message edited by AnimusRex -- 12/5/2009 3:40:09 PM >

(in reply to slvemike4u)
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RE: I guess Obama doesnt care what other nations think - 12/5/2009 3:39:56 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

Could have fooled me. ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy





Having read your posts, I think that applies to many, many subjects, WD...nice that you admit it.

(You slow pitch one over the plate, someone has to take a swing )

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: I guess Obama doesnt care what other nations think - 12/5/2009 4:20:23 PM   
pahunkboy


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Those drones one day will be used on Americans.

How do you like them now?

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
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RE: I guess Obama doesnt care what other nations think - 12/6/2009 8:58:39 AM   
Hillwilliam


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You say Obama doesnt care what other nations think.  Are you implying that Dubya did?

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RE: I guess Obama doesnt care what other nations think - 12/6/2009 9:26:26 AM   
slvemike4u


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Spinner ,Animus I can't fault either of your post's or the reasoning offered.I see the other side of it.....but I have my perspective...perhaps an indefenceable one, colored by my own ingrained prejudices. I recognise the hypocrisy and yet still rationalize the retention of a somewhat spurios national moral superiority .
Perhaps if the shoe were on the other foot.......but it isn't,so I can't possibly give moral equality to these two disparate methods of achieving ones aims.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: I guess Obama doesnt care what other nations think - 12/6/2009 8:51:20 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Gee, I wonder if they would have said that in 1945 when American and British planes were bombing Berlin hoping that they'd snuff Hitler?

"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace."
General Sherman to the Mayor and councilman of Atlanta.....his "war is hell" letter.
Popeye you hit the nail on the head....Drones are just another progression of war...and as Sherman said war is indeed hell.Anyone driven to fight a war must as a consequense persecute that war to the swiftest and surest conclusion that means using all means necessary.Conventional weapons are conventional weapons their delivery system changes them not a whit.



Mike, I often do hit the nail on the head, you just don't often acknowledge it.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: I guess Obama doesnt care what other nations think - 12/6/2009 8:55:05 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
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From: United States
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Come on Popeye even you have to admit you hit your thumb twice for every strike to the nail

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: I guess Obama doesnt care what other nations think - 12/6/2009 10:04:31 PM   
Brain


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When he bowed, you guys were jumping all over his bones for being too respectful. Whatever he does you will be against it because you just want to kick him out of office so you can get some puppet in there like Dubya to make more money.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: I guess Obama doesnt care what other nations think - 12/7/2009 11:41:32 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

When he bowed, you guys were jumping all over his bones for being too respectful. Whatever he does you will be against it because you just want to kick him out of office so you can get some puppet in there like Dubya to make more money.



Now Mike, Brain here just hit the nail on the head! Yup Brain, you caught us! We want to see the Big Corporations make PLENTY of money! And Obama doesn't so we want to throw him out of office!
DAMN! Caught with our hands in the cookie jar again!!!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 38
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