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Thatcher and the decline of UK manufacturing - 12/4/2009 3:55:58 PM

Politesub53

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The usual bandwagon here in the UK is to blame Thatcher for this, yet Brown and Blair always get a free pass. Since Labour have been in power, manufacturing has declined at three time the rate that when Mrs T was in office.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8c257da6-dfab-11de-98ca-00144feab49a.html?nclick_check=1

No F.T, no comment

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RE: Thatcher and the decline of UK manufacturing - 12/4/2009 4:18:10 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

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Do these comparisons ever take into consideration how other competing nations around us are developing? I don’t think manufacturing has been our bread and butter for a long time and I don’t think style of leadership has anything to do with that.

It says I've used by two articles in 30 days allowance, I heard something mentioned about this fight between News International and Google as to how News articles are distributed (aggregated) across the net. Soon we'll all have to pay to read right wing propaganda it seems.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 12/4/2009 4:24:54 PM >

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RE: Thatcher and the decline of UK manufacturing - 12/4/2009 4:23:23 PM

Politesub53

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Maybe, but everyone seems quick to blame Thatcher, despite mining being at it`s peak 100 years ago, and despite more factories closing under labour in the seventies than when she was in office.

The EU and global manufacturing have both had an adverse effect on our industry. This is understandable as multinationals will always go where the cheapest labour source is. Maybe now though, new labour will stop snipping at Thatcher and look at the dismal record since they have been in office.

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RE: Thatcher and the decline of UK manufacturing - 12/4/2009 4:23:28 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

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I think we've been service lead with an emphasis on banking for quite a time.

Also and this point really annoys me but we are strong in terms of construction expertise but this sector isn't promoted that well by our Government. I hear the construction sector accounts for 10% of our GDP but you don't hear that fact mentioned often. 10% is quite a sizable chunk with a lot of associated jobs.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 12/4/2009 4:28:29 PM >

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RE: Thatcher and the decline of UK manufacturing - 12/4/2009 4:27:09 PM

Politesub53

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Now we have the truth classed as propaganda, interesting concept.

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RE: Thatcher and the decline of UK manufacturing - 12/4/2009 4:33:19 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

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Truth is this philosophical idea that doesn't exist in reality; as discussed in length truth is largely opinion based as even numbers can be skewed to suit one agenda or another. I don't talk of truth not from one single source.

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RE: Thatcher and the decline of UK manufacturing - 12/4/2009 4:38:27 PM

Politesub53

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Ah yes, shoot the messenger. Sure people can play with statistics, but lets not forget these came from a government source, not a conservative think tank.

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RE: Thatcher and the decline of UK manufacturing - 12/4/2009 5:02:25 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

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My point is not even entirely related to that (who holds the truth) question. It's akin to looking at one aspect of a mechanism and assuming that one aspect has total governance over the behaviour of the mechanism. For want of a better phrase it is 'failing to look at the bigger picture' or admit the world has changed and we have a different trading relationship with it now. It is kind of similar to those people that compare the achievements of one F1 racing driver to another F1 racing driver in another era i.e. with different technology at their disposal, different competitors to race against and different racing regulations. The regulation is one part of the picture.

My honest belief is that politicians do little to foster an environment to promote anything long term (such as long term growth) because their aims are short term (staying in office). Yes they'll take credit for it when the country is doing well or they'll blame the other party when things go bad. They are politicians they do this. We could easily argue growth or lack of shrinkage under Thatcher was due to policies put in place before her time that took a while to trickle down. We'll never know for sure but the political spin will show a history of growth in black and white, a kind of simple and straightforward history that it never is in reality. Bills are always proposed by both sides regardless of which side is in government at the time. If a single politician comes up with a good idea for a bill it will become law in the short future regardless of if (s)he is in government or opposition at the time.

Edited: for my initial (s)exism.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 12/4/2009 5:09:25 PM >

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RE: Thatcher and the decline of UK manufacturing - 12/4/2009 5:09:50 PM

Politesub53

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I could always see your point and have no quarrel with it.

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RE: Thatcher and the decline of UK manufacturing - 12/4/2009 7:55:13 PM

slvemike4u

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Polite I feel completely inadequaet here...you guys drop in and can make intelligent contribtions to threads that are completely Americancentric......you start a thread dealing with issues closer to home (for you)...I drop in and realise I know jack shit about what is going on there
Hell all I know is Thatcher was your Reagan...more than enough for me to have a distaste...but beyond that....I'm sorry.

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RE: Thatcher and the decline of UK manufacturing - 12/5/2009 2:57:35 AM

Politesub53

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Thatcher is the cause of much debate in the UK Mike. History will show her in a better light than the chattering classes of today do. She is someone you either like or you dont.

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RE: Thatcher and the decline of UK manufacturing - 12/5/2009 5:24:43 AM

Aneirin

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Thatcher, well, I think for a prime minister, she is the only one in recent years who actually had any balls, she didn't take shit from anyone, I have to admire her for that, but to her policies, I don't know.Some things were ok, some things not, but the only thing I am pissed about really, was starting the ball rolling in the great sell off of public assets, under the pretence that in private ownership, we will get a better deal all round, well, I think we are still waiting for that promise aren't we. What is it now, our energy generation, telecommunications and water, all companies now in private but foreign hands. Anything worth anything was sold off. Maybe we are a trading nation, we make money by trade, but it is wholly wrong to get rid off our manufacturing and transportation ability, we are now dependant on every one else now, and if prices rise, we just got to pay and thats that.

John Major, well, he was very grey, but perhaps he was the most successful, because all he did was run the country, I have no problems with him, but Blair, when he got elected, I remember thinking, who'se he, where did he come from. I didn't vote for the idiot, so my conscience is clear on that one, but my feelings are Blair has done more damage than anyone else so far, and Brown, well, he is just reaping what his pal tony sowed.

The 1980's I was trying to get employment in the merchant navy, but the only company that I could find an Engineering cadetship with took me on but within a week of being taken on, I was let go, as the company had overnight lost two ships, in fact I think they are still up there in Loch Fyne where they have been since they were delivered. I remember years later sailing around them. Anyway, Thatcher was held responsible for stuffing Britain's merchant fleet.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 12/5/2009 5:31:12 AM >

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RE: Thatcher and the decline of UK manufacturing - 12/5/2009 7:39:34 AM

LadyEllen

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Lets face it, when Thatcher was elected the country was in a mess, and had been by and large for some years. She set about implementing policies, which as she saw it, would solve that mess. Notwithstanding the considerable collateral damage these policies brought about, the mess was improved by some margin, and Major continued them, as did Blair and Brown where the only substantial difference between them and the former regime was where and how the proceeds were spent.

The decline in the importance of manufacturing, (which is what the article said I believe, before it vanished and asked me for money), was occasioned by two mechanisms over the thirty year period. Firstly manufacturing, as a percentage of national product, declined in importance because of the rise in financial and other services in the new model implemented; as the latter grew and the former remained static (or declined in itself) this would obviously diminish the relative importance of manufacturing.

Secondly however, British manufacturing declined in itself over this thirty year period, as it had been declining in the years preceding the period. The reasons for this are multi-facted and complex, but ultimately British manufacturing was not performing as it might, or indeed as manufacturing in comparable nations was and continues to do. British manufacturing as a result could not support the expectations of the British people in terms of preserving and improving their standard of living. From there the intense problems in workplace relations which occasioned industrial action throughout the period prior to and immediately following the 1979 election is, very basically, explained. Workers wanted wages which their work could not support, and this notwithstanding the backdrop of raging inflation.

The policies of Thatcher were, one would hope, designed to provide a new economic model for the UK which could support the kind of wages the workers wanted, so preserving and improving the standard of living. In theory, most British workers would switch from low value work to high value work in the services and professional fields, no longer generating the wealth themselves but gaining their incomes from supervising and managing and servicing manufacturing and other activities relocated abroad. The problems with this were apparent even at the time - that there simply was not enough employment in these peripheral, supporting activities to take up the huge numbers of workers, and the workers themselves having been educated towards or accustomed to the old model, were unable to take the new model jobs. Unemployment became a huge problem and near on a whole generation of school leavers were lost to employment from around 1980 to 1990, along with large numbers of existing workers thrown out of work, taking their skills out of the manufacturing sector forever.

The rise in financial and other services has largely been able to support the decline in manufacturing and even surpass it, funding the benefits and other social support systems that have found themselves burdened by millions out of work even at the best of times. But now that the bubble has burst on the policies implemented 30 years ago, politicians are beginning to see the value of a balanced economy, and not simply because of the damaging social effects we now live with as a consequence of two to three generations of some families being out of work, and the inherent problems of all eggs in one basket.

The problems with trying now to rebuild a balanced economy however are immense - skills have been lost over 30 years that are not easily replaced, the world stage and global economy means that British manufacturing is only able to compete on high value manufacturing which by its nature enjoys lower demand for its products and the wages for those possessed of the skills requisite will be high indeed on the basis of supply and demand. And in a world depression, where highly skilled graduates able to fulfil those high value manufacturing jobs are being produced at a ratio of hundreds to one in developing nations compared to the UK, it is unlikely that the UK will be able to compete even in those fields.

So its not as simple as it might seem - even the above is a very simplistic account; yes, Thatcher implemented policies that led to the rise in financial and other services that supported a declining manufacturing base that continued to decline throughout the period. Yes, to some extent she must be held responsible for this decline - but it was there already and what she did was necessary in the circumstances. Blair and Brown merely continued this process and against a world backdrop where demand for financial and other services grew enormously for the most of their time in office and the good times were held to never end, they may be blamed too for the continuing decline, finding their basket of eggs to be all they needed.

Ultimately though the problem is how does one support 60 million people on an island to the high standard of living they expect, in a world where others are content with a bowl of rice a day to work twice as hard for twice as long? Our golden goose has been discovered to be a turkey - what next?

E

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RE: Thatcher and the decline of UK manufacturing - 12/5/2009 11:12:08 AM

Politesub53

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Lady E, I am unsure why you think all this happened in the last 30 years. Industry has been in decline in the UK since the end of ww2 and in some instances, even earlier. Much of the blame lies squarely with both the unions and the management. Both groups failing to modernise and embrace new technology.

There were no industries in decline after Thatcher, that were not in decline before her. The whole British industrial might was based on technology and cheap labour, combined with unsafe working practices. This is why industry has declined in the UK and is on the decline in the US. Labour and the EU have just added to the red tape and increased costs, both doing more harm than good. Health and safety has become an industry in itself, the last ludicrous thing I read was firefighters being made to attend a course on the safe use of step ladders. You really couldnt make it up.

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RE: Thatcher and the decline of UK manufacturing - 12/5/2009 1:13:45 PM

popeye1250

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Polite, no matter who's to blame, it's certainly not a good thing.

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RE: Thatcher and the decline of UK manufacturing - 12/5/2009 1:20:21 PM

Phoenixpower

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I don't know much about politics over here, if I want to know something I will ask my ex who is a politician at the moment...and so far I was not desperate enough...however, yesterday a client told me that thatcher would have been the one who introduced council tax...and that put me off straight away from her

I seriously hope that after my studies, when I am not exempt from paying them anymore, that I don't have to waste too many months here paying them again

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RE: Thatcher and the decline of UK manufacturing - 12/5/2009 5:01:24 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Thatcher is the cause of much debate in the UK Mike. History will show her in a better light than the chattering classes of today do. She is someone you either like or you dont.

...this is what i know.

As a direct cause of Thatcher's policies, the number of homeless people, in particular teens, sky-rocketed. She systematically destroyed support for the weakest and most vulnerable people in order to finance tax cuts for the middle classes. She shut psychiatric hospitals and used an accounting trick to pretend the new system was in place, when it wasn't. Her government was riddled with corruption and graft.
History may be kinder to her, once those who suffered as a direct result of her policies are dead. But some of us are still alive.

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RE: Thatcher and the decline of UK manufacturing - 12/6/2009 3:01:46 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Lady E, I am unsure why you think all this happened in the last 30 years. Industry has been in decline in the UK since the end of ww2 and in some instances, even earlier. Much of the blame lies squarely with both the unions and the management. Both groups failing to modernise and embrace new technology.

There were no industries in decline after Thatcher, that were not in decline before her. The whole British industrial might was based on technology and cheap labour, combined with unsafe working practices. This is why industry has declined in the UK and is on the decline in the US. Labour and the EU have just added to the red tape and increased costs, both doing more harm than good. Health and safety has become an industry in itself, the last ludicrous thing I read was firefighters being made to attend a course on the safe use of step ladders. You really couldnt make it up.

Apart from mining, steel, yellow goods, ceramics, publishing and farming, of course. (I'm sure other interested posters can add others.)
I'd also question associating Labour with the EU. Blair and Brown have both treated that with every bit as much contempt as Thatcher or Major ever did.
That said, the FT is at least a more carefully checked source than most of the UK papers that get linked to on here: when the red tops print lies, they have to publish a retraction, hidden somewhere at the back between horseshit about Big Brother/The Apprentice/I'm a Celebrity.../other and the start of the sports, where it can be easily ignored. When the FT prints lies, the stock market crashes.

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RE: Thatcher and the decline of UK manufacturing - 12/6/2009 3:09:30 PM

kittinSol

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When Thatcher resigned, I cried with joy. She was a toxic force.

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RE: Thatcher and the decline of UK manufacturing - 12/6/2009 3:10:38 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

When Thatcher resigned, I cried with joy. She was a toxic force.

I was very disappointed: my heart was set on assassination for her.

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