RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a successful future." --Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor (Full Version)

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Silence8 -> RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a successful future." --Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor (12/7/2009 9:36:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Just to clarify, when you say' why bother' in what way do you mean?

Let me count the ways....

The Genetic Fallacy
The genetic fallacy is committed when an idea is either accepted or rejected because of its source, rather than its merit.

Additionally, to claim that a proposition must be true on the basis of it being widely affirmed by people who are judged to be authorities is doubly fallacious.

Appeal to Authority
An appeal to authority is an argument from the fact that a person judged to be an authority affirms a proposition to the claim that the proposition is true.

Appeal to Popularity
Appeals to popularity suggest that an idea must be true simply because it is widely held.

Will that hold you for a while?

K.


God it's pretentious citing the names of logical fallacies, and farcical when they don't apply.

Genetic fallacy -- well, there is no shortage of evidence supporting global warming, not one data set. The Climate Gate scandal, rather, cites one data set, a stolen one, and circumstantial comments in private emails.

Appeal to Authority -- this isn't a real logical fallacy. This is an epistemological dilemma, at best, and an ever-present element of human society since the industrial and scientific revolutions, if not before.

Appeal to Popularity -- also, not a real logical fallacy. (see above)

That took a few minutes, and was, indeed, a waste of time.



Kirata -> RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a successful future." --Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor (12/7/2009 9:55:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

believe in... disprove...

This is starting to sound like one of those threads where believers and atheists go at it.

K.



AnimusRex -> RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a successful future." --Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor (12/7/2009 10:15:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
This is starting to sound like one of those threads where believers and atheists go at it.


Of course it is!
How could it be any different? As I mentioned on the other climate thread, no one on these boards has any real qualifications to argue the facts and data. Everyone here has only their political viewpoints and handy blogs to buttress same.
It is exactly like religion, in that people are arguing about things they don't understand.

But as I also noted on the other thread, the harmfull effects of our industrial processes are beyond debate; they are pretty much settled as a fact.

Which is the real issue- regardless of ones opinions on global warming, it is beyond dispute that we need to change how we do things, or else we will end up with an unlivable planet.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a successful future." --Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor (12/7/2009 10:24:11 AM)

quote:

It is exactly like religion, in that people are arguing about things they don't understand.


However unlike those thread there is a distinct difference on this subject. Nobody has ever observed 'god'. There is documented history of prior global warming, and cooling, that has been observed and reported. I see a major distinction in that the religions global warmers need observation to be ignored.

You don't need to understand what you see - but if you claim to be a 'scientist' versus a priest; you better be able to fit what was, and is observed, into you scientific model if you want cynics to see it as science fact versus science theory. Quite the contrary has occurred. There is more acceptance of challenge to E=MC2 to the religion believing that the world will end if this 'crisis' isn't averted.

A magnificent sales pitch. A great example of a 'one true way' religion. Not a way of any 'science' I can respect or take seriously. Challenge and disclosure of results is the cornerstone to science. Neither of those attributes can be applied to global warming. Until they are, I will always consider it a faith based religion.



Kirata -> RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a successful future." --Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor (12/7/2009 10:35:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

But as I also noted on the other thread, the harmfull effects of our industrial processes are beyond debate; they are pretty much settled as a fact... regardless of ones opinions on global warming, it is beyond dispute that we need to change how we do things, or else we will end up with an unlivable planet.

I agree with you on this, AR.

With global warming, there are too many critical unanswered questions. "How much" and "how fast" come to mind. And as a practical policy matter, these translate into how much and how fast do we have to do something, no matter how drastic and no matter the cost? This, in my opinion, is where a reasonable person can legitimately question the hue and cry of, "the sky is falling, the sky is falling!"

Meanwhile, as I think you are suggesting, there are other clear and present risks, of huge magnitude, which nobody questions, that are being pushed off the stage by this dog and pony show. The health effects of particulate pollution are staggering. Solar storms of a magnitude we have already recorded before the complex "grid" we depend on today, and which are certain to occur again, would take it out, with consequences of continental proportions.

We need to change some things, indeed. Our priorities, for starters.

K.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a successful future." --Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor (12/7/2009 10:51:30 AM)

quote:

One credited climatologist who can disprove evidence of global warming? C'mon, guys, there has got to be at least one.


Well - you'd first have to provide one credited climatologist who can PROVE evidence of global warming. Not theorize it, not speculate, not form an opinion based upon data supporting that position, but disposing of other data that conflicts with their position. Not needing to cover up their internal discussions with fellow theorists, but putting them out there announcing, like scientists; "hey - we may have not carried a one somewhere in our calculations. None of what we're seeing now matches up what we expected based upon our research. Can someone else take a look at this and see where, or if, we made a mistake?"

Come on - as a zealot you should have at least one who can prove it and fit their global warming model into observations of climate going back into human recorded history.

OR

You can continue to believe that, as the OP must, the words of that great scientist and thinker, the Di Vinci of his time-Leonardo DiCaprio, holds the key to the future of mankind.



blacksword404 -> RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a successful future." --Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor (12/7/2009 10:53:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

If you don't want to pay taxes then you should be supporting hydrogen and electric vehicle's. Why do you want to pay expensive amounts of money for gasoline? Why wouldn't you want to drive an electric car or hydrogen vehicle that's less expensive and doesn't pollute the environment and destroy the planet. In the long run they're going to bring the cost of these new cars down and it will be cheaper and safer/less pollution for all of us.


You are delusional if you think you will not be paying large amounts for something. Now what that particular thing is and who happens to own it is up in the air.



Silence8 -> RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a successful future." --Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor (12/7/2009 11:10:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

One credited climatologist who can disprove evidence of global warming? C'mon, guys, there has got to be at least one.


Well - you'd first have to provide one credited climatologist who can PROVE evidence of global warming. Not theorize it, not speculate, not form an opinion based upon data supporting that position, but disposing of other data that conflicts with their position. Not needing to cover up their internal discussions with fellow theorists, but putting them out there announcing, like scientists; "hey - we may have not carried a one somewhere in our calculations. None of what we're seeing now matches up what we expected based upon our research. Can someone else take a look at this and see where, or if, we made a mistake?"

Come on - as a zealot you should have at least one who can prove it and fit their global warming model into observations of climate going back into human recorded history.

OR

You can continue to believe that, as the OP must, the words of that great scientist and thinker, the Di Vinci of his time-Leonardo DiCaprio, holds the key to the future of mankind.


Let's see here, the best parts have been highlighted!:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change

Scientific opinion on climate change
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is about scientific opinion on climate change as given by synthesis reports, scientific bodies of national or international standing, and surveys of opinion among climate scientists. This article does not include the views of individual scientists, individual universities, or laboratories, nor self-selected lists of individuals such as petitions. For individual scientists opposing the mainstream assessment of global warming, see List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming. For debate around climate change consensus, see Climate change consensus.

National and international science academies and scientific societies have assessed the current scientific opinion, in particular on recent global warming. These assessments have largely followed or endorsed the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) position of January 2001 that states:

An increasing body of observations gives a collective picture of a warming world and other changes in the climate system... There is new and stronger evidence that most of the warming observed over the last 50 years is attributable to human activities.[1]

Since 2007, no scientific body of national or international standing has maintained a dissenting opinion. A small minority of organisations hold non-committal positions.



Global warming
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Global warming is the increase in the average temperature of the Earth's near-surface air and oceans since the mid-20th century and its projected continuation. Global surface temperature increased 0.74 ± 0.18 °C (1.33 ± 0.32 °F) between the start and the end of the 20th century.[1][A] The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) concludes that most of the observed temperature increase since the middle of the 20th century was caused by increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases resulting from human activity such as fossil fuel burning and deforestation.[1] The IPCC also concludes that variations in natural phenomena such as solar radiation and volcanoes produced most of the warming from pre-industrial times to 1950 and had a small cooling effect afterward.[2][3] These basic conclusions have been endorsed by more than 40 scientific societies and academies of science, including all of the national academies of science of the major industrialized countries.[4]



Mercnbeth -> RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a successful future." --Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor (12/7/2009 11:18:56 AM)

quote:


Let's see here, the best parts have been highlighted!:
None of what you reported is proof.

Give me a few minutes and I'll have a post on Wikipedia too.

Endorsements are not proof.

A "small minority of organizations" didn't think the world was flat. How did that dissension turn out?

Do you understand the distinction between opinion and theory from proof? Perhaps that is the fundamental disconnect; you have faith - good for you! Don't represent it as fact or definitive and you're free to worship your god as much as you like. Just keep yourself separated from any discussion regarding fact and proof, until you understand those concepts.

There are many of these, your requested "Climatologist experts" (this one has a PHD), who provide similar credibility, albeit similarly without PROOF:

Global Warming, as we think we know it, doesn't exist. And I am not the only one trying to make people open up their eyes and see the truth. But few listen, despite the fact that I was one of the first Canadian Ph.Ds. in Climatology and I have an extensive background in climatology, especially the reconstruction of past climates and the impact of climate change on human history and the human condition. Few listen, even though I have a Ph.D, (Doctor of Science) from the University of London, England and was a climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg. For some reason (actually for many), the World is not listening. Here is why.What would happen if tomorrow we were told that, after all, the Earth is flat? It would probably be the most important piece of news in the media and would generate a lot of debate. So why is it that when scientists who have studied the Global Warming phenomenon for years say that humans are not the cause nobody listens? Why does no one acknowledge that the Emperor has no clothes on?



vincentML -> RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a successful future." --Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor (12/7/2009 1:29:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex


[But as I also noted on the other thread, the harmfull effects of our industrial processes are beyond debate; they are pretty much settled as a fact.

Which is the real issue- regardless of ones opinions on global warming, it is beyond dispute that we need to change how we do things, or else we will end up with an unlivable planet.


We have changed our industrial processes, Rex. We have moved them to India, China, and Korea, etc. But the damn wind keeps blowing eastward.

Seriously, we have improved the quality of our industrial emissions these last 30 years or so, don't you think? What more would you suggest?

Vincent



popeye1250 -> RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a successful future." --Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor (12/7/2009 1:37:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

It's unfortunate, but at least now I know by your responses who has been brainwashed listening to Rush Limbaugh.



Now there's a cogent argument, anyone smart enough not to believe in this "junk science" "listens to Rush Limbaugh?"


Sheesh, Leonardo De Caprio must know better than me I guess, he IS an "ACTOR" after all.



vincentML -> RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a successful future." --Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor (12/7/2009 2:07:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8




Genetic fallacy -- well, there is no shortage of evidence supporting global warming, not one data set. The Climate Gate scandal, rather, cites one data set, a stolen one, and circumstantial comments in private emails.



The problem is that the "stolen" comments suggest that data was manipulated to eliminate the preindustrial Medieval Warming Period on the UN charts. A very inconvenient data set to the alarmist position. Investigations are being conducted at several levels but you have already implied your belief that the AGW crowd will be vindicated. You use so many emotionally loaded words in your argument: "one data set" "a stolen one" "circumstantial comments" "private emails"

There should be no such thing as "private emails" among Scientists imo. Nor should data curves be "tricked" as the emails suggest.

Vincent



LadyEllen -> RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a successful future." --Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor (12/7/2009 2:12:49 PM)

What has to be explained is how come, if the carbon fuels industry and its lobby is so powerful, and all this climate change hoo-hah is going to cost developing nations a load of money in terms of lost opportunity to pollute and make tonnes of cash, this climate change thingy has such legs that it can attract thousands of scientists and government types from all over the world to a place like Copenhagen in December?

Why are carbon fuel suppliers devoting time and money to research carbon capture and alternative fuels, when they could wipe out the climate change movement in terms of information management with their money?

Are we truly saying that the thousands of scientists in Copenhagen this week and the hundreds of politicians are all in on some gigantic conspiracy whereby at any moment the truth could come out and ruin the lot of them? As well as threaten the boards of the carbon fuel suppliers who will have wasted shareholder funds on aligning with the conspiracy in order to, well, undermine their core business? In a time of financial doom where they might otherwise take over the world?

One bunch of (perhaps) dodgy emails at one relatively insignificant university (sorry alumni) is truly the expose of this conspiracy?

I'm disappointed. It wouldnt even make a decent climax to a straight to video Hollywood B film.

E



servantforuse -> RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a successful future." --Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor (12/7/2009 2:18:51 PM)

I think that this waste of time and money summit should be moved from Copenhagen to China. Al Gore and the other con artists can peddle their B S over there. Thats where the real problem is anyway.



LadyEllen -> RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a successful future." --Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor (12/7/2009 2:27:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I think that this waste of time and money summit should be moved from Copenhagen to China. Al Gore and the other con artists can peddle their B S over there. Thats where the real problem is anyway.


Hang about a mo - so there is a real problem, but its in China?

E



Mercnbeth -> RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a successful future." --Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor (12/7/2009 2:29:39 PM)

quote:

this climate change thingy has such legs that it can attract thousands of scientists and government types from all over the world to a place like Copenhagen in December?
300,000 people show up the last week in September in SF for the Folsom Street Fair. Going there for the past six years, I wouldn't represent that it represents anything more than a focal point for the practitioners as well as those just looking to take pictures of 'celebrities'.

The used to hold the Miss America pageant the week after the big US holiday 'Labor Day' to keep people in Atlantic City for one more week. Money, and its pursuit, can generate a bunch of attention. Not all if it, or much of it, is earned. It doesn't represent anything more than the result of marketing.

quote:

Why are carbon fuel suppliers devoting time and money to research carbon capture and alternative fuels, when they could wipe out the climate change movement in terms of information management with their money?

Two reasons off the top of my head:
  • To make more money.
  • To hedge their bet.

quote:

Are we truly saying that the thousands of scientists in Copenhagen this week and the hundreds of politicians are all in on some gigantic conspiracy whereby at any moment the truth could come out and ruin the lot of them? As well as threaten the boards of the carbon fuel suppliers who will have wasted shareholder funds on aligning with the conspiracy in order to, well, undermine their core business? In a time of financial doom where they might otherwise take over the world?
Based upon the private jets and limos I doubt many, if any, of those there give a damn about the consequences their religious beliefs will have on the rest of the world's population. I doubt any can even relate to them.

quote:

One bunch of (perhaps) dodgy emails at one relatively insignificant university (sorry alumni) is truly the expose of this conspiracy?
The university was very significant until this disclosure; especially for the very people now in Copenhagen. And yes, when its disclosed that scientists have based their theory on manipulating data - that was a conspiracy, worthy of disclosure, and should change the perspective of legitimacy given any data collected.

quote:

I'm disappointed. It wouldnt even make a decent climax to a straight to video Hollywood B film.
Me too - you would think there would be some integrity in the scientific community. To dispose of data and to now claim it lost will make all future scientific representations subject to disbelief.

I used to belief that scientific research, and scientists, were proud to have their results challenged. Anyone 'wining' a debate wouldn't want to see the debate closed, but would put up their data and any model generated by them out to everyone for confirmation. The position taken by the believers and the institutions discloses their agenda.

As a movie, it's as fulfilling as some of Hitchcock's ending; leaving much to be desired - but the story itself tells a concerning tale.



servantforuse -> RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a successful future." --Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor (12/7/2009 2:39:08 PM)

Global warming, not a problem. Pollution in China and India, a big problem. Those two countries will be laughing all the way to the bank.



mnottertail -> RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a successful future." --Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor (12/7/2009 2:44:23 PM)

several billion over that way gonna need clean water to drink, I am gonna have some to sell.

Ron



LadyEllen -> RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a successful future." --Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor (12/7/2009 2:58:58 PM)

How does China benefit from offering to cut back on emissions to join the party? Their emissions come from their industry, which produces enormous strides forward for their economy and the wealth of their nation. It is rather in their interests to support the anti-position so that they might continue to pollute and continue to develop.

It cant be that they think the west is going to pay them anything to reduce emissions - they already own every penny the west has and will have for some years.

So then, an occult conspiracy it is - a trick to cripple the US... hang on, the US is already in big trouble and it wouldnt need all this to tip it over the edge; calling in some debts would do that nicely.

Aha! Guess where 50% of the world supply of rare earth is to be found, and who currently supplies 95% of it? But then is that truly enough of a wealth producer to forgo the rest of their economy?

E



vincentML -> RE: Climate Cover-Up: It’s an imperative read for a successful future." --Leonardo DiCaprio, Actor (12/7/2009 2:59:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

What has to be explained is how come, if the carbon fuels industry and its lobby is so powerful, and all this climate change hoo-hah is going to cost developing nations a load of money in terms of lost opportunity to pollute and make tonnes of cash, this climate change thingy has such legs that it can attract thousands of scientists and government types from all over the world to a place like Copenhagen in December?
E


It has been suggested the developing nations will come away winners with tons of money in the form of reparations for lost opportunity to pollute. Follow the money.

Vincent



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