Removing gender

Removing gender (Full Version)

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MrThorns -> Removing gender (9/3/2004 8:39:22 AM)
I seem to have a knack for attracting gay/bi male slaves. I'm heterosexual and very comfortable to be so, but I have recently had a discussion with a male slave that really opened my eyes to some things. What does gender have to do with slavery? I know that BDSM is not about sex, but I am a sexual person and enjoy sex with my sadism, so I tend to look for female slaves. The point he had made to me was that being a slave had nothing to do with being male or being female. In fact, him even owning his sexuality is not allowed. We are so wrapped up in owning things. Often you hear a slave say, "He is my Master." That slave just claimed ownership of that dominant, no? We also seem to be very attatched to our gender. What could be more powerful than addressing a male slave, pointing at his cock and saying "That is not allowed."? The slave is forbidden from identifying as male and would only identify as slave, removing his gender from the equation. I know these thoughts are still somewhat jumbled...I'm still working on putting all of this together. My questions to you are these: How many of you are heterosexual and have slaves of the same gender? Would you (Heterosexuals) take on a slave of the same gender? Does gender play a part in that relationship? How do you overcome those gender barriers? Of those of you who are gay or bisexual, how do you see this dynamic? I'm also curious about people's feelings about owning their identity as a slave. I'll post a lot more about this later once the coffee has kicked in and I get some inspiring feedback. ~Thorns

squirrelfury -> RE: Removing gender (9/3/2004 10:23:10 AM)
Answering from the bisexual/pansexual point of view...or at least my pansexual point of view, the dynamic for me is thus: A scene for me is all the better for some gender twisting, no matter who of what biological or claimed sex is running it. I tend to play more frequently with women, but some men (Whitney Matlock, for those who know the name, being my favorite example) just do it for me and can send me into headpsace easily. My gender twist tends to take the form of pantyslutting, though in truth I'm not sure if most would even rate that as a spin on gender play. I wear panties happily, but I still identify as male. I'm a boy, and always will be....I'm just a boy in panties, in this case. As for the idea of the sub/slave/bottom's gender owned and either given or denied by the top...I don't have any experience with such, but just the thought is pretty intriguing. It could be pleasantly devastating to have someone say "You aren't this, you're this!" Lastly, to close up my incoherent, badly thought-out rambling, I say this: There are many opinions on whether sex and play are mutually inclusive or exclusive. For me, sex isn't a necessity, but it surely is a sweet, sweet ending.

afmvdp -> RE: Removing gender (9/3/2004 11:48:13 AM)
While I don't call my heterosexual, I don't call myself anything really I just am, I prefer the visage of women over men and do not find men sexually or in any other way attractive. In such I also prefer to look only for females, but I can say that I have had one male sub before, no sex was involved in the process at all as it was more of a mentor training but I still consider him one of my children and he's done rather well for himself since. To me it wasn't a matter of sexual attraction, as it isn't many times in fact with the people I've chosen...but what I'm looking for isn't normally the same as the typical lover/counterpart Dom type mentality that is the majority. As a self proclaimed Father/Teacher mentality, to me it is a matter of finding people that have a genuine desire to improve and evolve their lives. I just come in to help them push and pull their way out of whatever lifetime of ruts they have put themselves in and into a new life and a new world. While I agree that if someone is to submit totally they are submitting even their sexuality and gender, but to me personally at least, I think gender just like everything else shouldn't be something we hide from. It should simply be refined. Keep the good, remove the bad and expand upon there. Just as you do with all other characteristics and habbits. I also had a transgendered sub before, which I do not consider them a male, though I know others who are less informed in the matter would, as they lived as, looked like, and in almost all aspects was in fact, a woman. They were postop though preop wouldn't likely be much of a difference really. Both allowed me to learn new things as well...as most experiences are. Each person should be able to provide some form of mutual growth, and should be a lesson learned.

Reviewer9 -> RE: Removing gender (9/3/2004 11:54:14 AM)
good thoughts

EStrict -> RE: Removing gender (9/3/2004 11:59:58 AM)
I was a sadistic top for several years. I never believed in sex with those who were submitting or bottoming to me. For that reason, I prefered women, since they seemed to be able to tolerate more pain. Men where great for the mind fuck, but when I just wanted to torture the body, woman seemed much more complaint. Could just be the ones I knew though. For sex, I've always prefered men totally....

jillwfsub4blkdom -> RE: Removing gender (9/3/2004 12:14:38 PM)
Thorns, very thought provoking. You bring it up in such a way that i had never thought of it before. i guess i had always assumed that submitting would always include sex but now am beginning to think not necessarily so.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Removing gender (9/3/2004 6:24:25 PM)
Thorns… I would like to answer from the sexual perspective (I guess bisexual if you need to put a label on it). I treat every sub differently, whether they be male, female or transgender subs even though I am potentially sexually attracted to all subs. That said, I’m not that attracted sexually to that many people… <grin> In terms of domination, it’s about getting into someone’s mind first and foremost, regardless of his/her/hyr gender (oh Kate Bornstein would be so proud of me!). It’s a power exchange and gender-fucking can be part of this play. If forced feminization is effective with a particular male sub, then bring out the panties and red lipstick! Forced feminization also works very well with dyke bois. Put pink barrettes in their hair and watch them pout! A Dom friend of mine also takes a girl’s femininity away from her when they play. We all know that femininity in itself is very powerful. So by telling a girl to wash all her make up off, tying her hair back into a no frill pigtail and wearing baggy, unflattering clothes, he has taken away her girlish charm so to speak. Interesting concept… In terms of sex, I can’t think along the same lines of homosexual or heterosexual people because I cannot limit my potential attraction to one specific gender. I can simply base myself on exceptional individuals who capture my attention. - LA

Synocense -> RE: Removing gender (9/3/2004 7:02:05 PM)
quote: What does gender have to do with slavery? This is what I was taught..and it was a tough lesson...but well worth it. Gender always plays a role in the matter of the slave. However, in some forms (or levels, if you will) of slavery, gender does not play a role in the matter of the dominant figure. As a slave, I could be used by men and women alike, be required to pleasure men and women alike. You can imagine the turmoil and confusion inside of me upon considering this. Eventually, I learned that if I am used by a woman or pleasure a woman, it does not make me bi-sexual. It simply makes me the sort of slave who made the one choice to give up choices. I could enjoy the encounter to it's fullest, it still means nothing less and nothing more then the fact that I did something my owner wanted me to do in order to please him. And in pleasing him, I'm fullfilled. He might have me pleasure a woman for no other reason than he knows it will feed my hunger for his control. Afterall, if you are only doing what you want and what you like, where is the control? I know it isn't this way for everyone, even others who identify as "slave" - but control is my main trigger. So as long as I am controlled, the act...upon/with a man or woman, should not be an issue. Now....if only it were that easy. lol Did I stray from the main thread? I'm sorry if that is the case. Syn

Estring -> RE: Removing gender (9/3/2004 8:24:49 PM)
In my case, being hetero and having my bdsm intertwined with my sexuality, I would never have a male slave. It would do nothing for me. And to be honest, most male slaves or subs seem way too whiny for me. (I did say most).

ShrewWhisperer -> RE: Removing gender (9/3/2004 11:23:57 PM)
great topic Thorn... I had a male slave for a summer, we (a group of 16) were backpacking the Applachia trail, and this boy fell in love, I didn't wanna fuck him so I brought him into a submissive posture (okay orginally I was looking for someone to do my camp chores) but we entered into a fairly stunning relationship, and while I never did punk him...he was better than any other slave I had at doing the fetching/et.all. So in answer to the question I think it comes down to people, both you and a sub, if ya wanna do the dirty, get the KY....and if you don't then see where things go. Oh, good trick Mistress A. with taking away a woman's feminine power, its not used a good deal, but it can have a real impact esp. when you're dealing with jaded girls who KNOW they can get out of anything put to them, best example I've run into with it was duct-taping the sub's boobs down and putting her in Old Spice...its amazing the lack of sexual appeal that brings on...

lanette -> RE: Removing gender (9/4/2004 12:18:32 AM)
Ok, i'm going to say the unpopular... I'm a traditionalist, Men are supposed to be Men, and women, women. I like my "femaleness" and am proud of being female... my sexuality is part of who i am, and anyone who wanted to dismiss or remove a part of me, doesn't want a life with me, they want a puppet and a "yes-person"... Just my opinion

Sundew02 -> RE: Removing gender (9/4/2004 12:48:10 AM)
I have been involved with both male and female submissives while I am active with them for the short term no, the gender doesn't come into play. I do not "see" them as male/female. But for the day to day long term contact, I prefer the opposite sex to serve and be with me on a daily basis. Sundew

LadyAngelika -> RE: Removing gender (9/4/2004 8:16:12 AM)
Shrew, First I appreciate your tale of the campground sub. I think it takes someone quite open minded to transcend the boundaries of "normalcy" and explore. I used to have this trick with (vanilla) boyfriends in the past. Whenever they asked if we could have threesomes, I would say “ok, boy boy girl?” then I would wait for their reaction. The ones that made some big stinky fuss/fit about it, going all “eeeww… gross” were immediately dismissed. The ones that took a more pragmatic approach to it, saying that they were willing to explore to some point but weren’t sure to where they were willing to go usually got their wish. I guess I didn’t want to reward close-mindedness nor did I want to pursue anything with anyone who could not transcend the boundaries of what they considered to be normal, and this, not just in sexuality. Thanks for sharing the Old Spice / duct tape trick as well. While agree that playing with removing someone’s gender can be a fun experience, I also like to heighten a girl’s femininity as well. This works well with subs that haven’t harnessed the power of their femininity I love getting my female subs to dress in lingerie, high heel shoes, sexy, feminine clothes, etc. - LA

MistressDREAD -> RE: Removing gender (9/4/2004 9:31:24 AM)
This is a issue Ive lived with for quite sum time and have addressed on many occation, of which Ive recieved much flank with as well and emails from many subs and Tops wondering how I could think to Own a slave with out having any sexual feeling for them or feel love for them at all. Ive been called a uncaring, wicked, undeserving, person whom shouldent have the right to Own any thing much less slaves in the letters that are addressed to Me and Ive been told such in much more worse words then I have used here because of My beliefs and My life how I live it and I have been judged more tersley by those whom claim to be of the same lifestyle as Me. The same lifestylers whom are here because they too have in sum kind of way enjoyed sumthing not acceptable by society so they come to Our Lifestyle to feel part of sumthing larger then their selfs,and to be accepted by those of Us like them whom are different in Our ways and choices and desires and likes deemed insane by normal society then step into the same position as the vanilla in judging those around them that they feel are not right or more extream then their beliefs. Ive always addressed slaves as slaves. Anyone whom reads My profile knows that I do not look at slaves as sexual beings but posessions that I do not look at gender when I aquire them or train them. What My personal sexual preferances are has no grounds as to how I address slaves. I to beleive that Men whom are Dominant are Dominant over Me as a Dominant Woman and do not adhear to either gender being superior over another and I beleive that men whom are slave no longer to be men but slaves and that goes for woman whom are slaves. This is their personal choice in choosing a life a way of total servitude not based off of their sex but off of the need to subjudicate to one of DOminance just as We as Dominant choose to inforce Our desire and need to Control. The issue of gender bending or position bending or belief bending or life and living bending are simply other issues to be addressed and worked out for the experiances of Life. Yes there are those whom choose another based off of FIRST ones gender but these folks in My eyes are not actually looking for a Lifestyle relationship first but a relationship need based off of sexual need first and thats where the distinguishes need to be understood and adheared that not all who come to the lifestyle have it first on their minds but come here first to address their sexual needs which cross all lines of need simply as being human regardless if they are socially acceptable or not. Some base their value off of what they aquire in the Love sence and sum off of the money sence and sum off of the kinks sence or to simply find sumone whom not only thinks the way they do but enjoys the things they do and has the ability to accept them as they are as well. Anyone here in My eyes is Lifestyle. From the troll whom only looks for that quick email cyber fuck to the Total 24/7 Lifestyler whom addresses the unusual the weird the kinks and unacceptable in Life in general. We all for what ever reason do things and act outside of whats concidered the * norm. What We all must remember is that We all are Lifestylers of Alternates and in this part We play sumtimes remove Our genders to enjoy and live other aspects of Our Lifes that are true and just as dear to Us as sex. I live as a Poly Sadist Gorean Alpha Dominant. I concider My self straight in the sence that for My Maternal and Family and Love needs I must have not just a Man but a Alpha Dominant Male. however in My alternate life I Own both male and female slaves and treat both equally sexually and accept sexually attention from both equally as well. I enjoy not only training both sexes to enhance their natural gender but also enjoy bending their genders into what they are not. This is what living a alternate lifestyles about and this is how I incorperate My lifestyle into My way of Living and when I am not addressing My slaves in a gender manner they no longer have such and are simply slaves, adored, cherished as any of My posessions of value.JMO

LadyAngelika -> RE: Removing gender (9/4/2004 10:18:21 AM)
Dread, you for one have all my respect in living your life as you see fit. We all embark into kink to fulfill our own needs and desires. Mine has a strong sexual component attached to it but I don't assume that it is such for others. Vive la différence! - LA

EStrict -> RE: Removing gender (9/4/2004 11:00:58 AM)
Actually Lanette, you brought up a different point of view of my own. Though as a top it doesn't matter what sex my bottoms are (as scenes are not sexual with bottoms and me), my need to be a slave has everything to do with my being a woman. I could never serve anyone except a naturally born male. It's not having sex that is the basis of the need... it is what is to me the natural order.... where a man is the provider and the woman is the one to make home and hearth as pleasant as possible.

MrThorns -> RE: Removing gender (9/4/2004 4:27:31 PM)
I guess that I have always seen my slaves as those I have chosen to fulfill my desires, wether those desires or sexual and sadistic or not. I have always seen my slaves as female. Maybe that is simply social engineering at work. If you haven't noticed, I am really trying to overcome a lof of social barriers and remove myself from the more traditional lines of thinking. I have been working at seeing my own slave as property, however, as I do love her very, very much, it has been difficult to do. I tend to wonder about how I can see her more as slave...as property. We did have a great scene the other night. I opened the door to my inner beastie a bit wider than I have done before. It was truly incredible. I'm wondering how I can remove the social programming that I have been burdened with so that I can fully open the door and let that raging beast out into the open. I have never really considered male slaves until this submissive male contacted me. Simply the idea that gender has no relevance..."your cock is forbidden, tuck it back bitch!" is really starting to appeal to me. I'm not making my way out of the perverbial closet, per se, but I am trying to open myself to seeing things a bit differently that I had before. I hope to hear more from all of you...minds racing...gotta run... ~Thorns

subbiejenn -> RE: Removing gender (9/4/2004 6:26:58 PM)
Until recently i always thought if your a slave to someone it was sexual. i didn't know there was different types of slaves. guess i am still a little naive i have always seen a slave as someone who was once a submissive but found that perfect Dom/Domme in which they totally trust and have a deep relationship with so they give up all control to them... ~~Still Learning~~

monsieur42 -> RE: Removing gender (9/4/2004 7:25:34 PM)
In your quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika I used to have this trick with (vanilla) boyfriends in the past. Whenever they asked if we could have threesomes, I would say “ok, boy boy girl?” then I would wait for their reaction. The ones that made some big stinky fuss/fit about it, going all “eeeww… gross” were immediately dismissed. The ones that took a more pragmatic approach to it, saying that they were willing to explore to some point but weren’t sure to where they were willing to go usually got their wish. - LA Dear Lady Angelika, You say this was a trick with vanilla boyfriends. Why not with subs too? Did you ever stretch a sub boy to accept (or suffer?) a threesome in a bdsm relation?

jillwfsub4blkdom -> RE: Removing gender (9/4/2004 8:10:36 PM)
Thorns, Have You ever done any scenes at play parties with male subs? Maybe it would help You sort Your feelings out through that in some way. Just a thought.

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